UFC 131 JDS vs Carwin

That ain't much

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Originally Posted by zY|

Brock is a can. JDS by assassination.

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I definitely wouldn't say Brock is a can--or maybe you're trolling again--but I also don't think he has what it takes to beat the very best in the world. Mir is good, but not quite in the very top bracket. Herring's okay . . . but he got beat by Jake O'Brien for God's sake. Couture is a fine fighter, but has lost his share of fights, and is finally showing his age and was also too small to be fighting Brock. Carwin's also good--and was winning--but has a fatal flaw in the gas tank department. I mean, he literally looked like he was about to die when he came out for the second round.

You could argue that JDS also doesn't have any spectacular wins. There's Werdum, but beyond that, who's his biggest win? Nelson? But I think JDS will keep on winning.

With that said, I've been wrong plenty of times before.

Definitely trolling, but I agree with your assessment.

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Originally Posted by zy|

that ain't much

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lol

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Originally Posted by SPX

I definitely wouldn't say Brock is a can--or maybe you're trolling again--but I also don't think he has what it takes to beat the very best in the world. Mir is good, but not quite in the very top bracket. Herring's okay . . . but he got beat by Jake O'Brien for God's sake. Couture is a fine fighter, but has lost his share of fights, and is finally showing his age and was also too small to be fighting Brock. Carwin's also good--and was winning--but has a fatal flaw in the gas tank department. I mean, he literally looked like he was about to die when he came out for the second round.

You could argue that JDS also doesn't have any spectacular wins. There's Werdum, but beyond that, who's his biggest win? Nelson? But I think JDS will keep on winning.

With that said, I've been wrong plenty of times before.

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LOl even I knew he was trolling ,thats why I said bet it all on JDS

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Originally Posted by SPX

I definitely wouldn't say Brock is a can--or maybe you're trolling again--but I also don't think he has what it takes to beat the very best in the world. Mir is good, but not quite in the very top bracket. Herring's okay . . . but he got beat by Jake O'Brien for God's sake. Couture is a fine fighter, but has lost his share of fights, and is finally showing his age and was also too small to be fighting Brock. Carwin's also good--and was winning--but has a fatal flaw in the gas tank department. I mean, he literally looked like he was about to die when he came out for the second round.

You could argue that JDS also doesn't have any spectacular wins. There's Werdum, but beyond that, who's his biggest win? Nelson? But I think JDS will keep on winning.

With that said, I've been wrong plenty of times before.

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I pretty much agree. I never thought Mir or Randy were very good wins. He really hasn't done very much. Vera beat Mir and Randy too...

But I disagree that he is not a top fighter. The HW talent pool is shallow, you can get away with being sort of shitty and still be a top HW. There just aren't that many good guys...

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Originally Posted by MMA_scientist

I pretty much agree. I never thought Mir or Randy were very good wins. He really hasn't done very much. Vera beat Mir and Randy too...

But I disagree that he is not a top fighter. The HW talent pool is shallow, you can get away with being sort of shitty and still be a top HW. There just aren't that many good guys...

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I agree Lesnar is no worse than 4th best HW in the UFC and 7th in the world ,thats pretty damn good imo

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Originally Posted by SPX

You could argue that JDS also doesn't have any spectacular wins. There's Werdum, but beyond that, who's his biggest win? Nelson? But I think JDS will keep on winning.

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Cain didnt really haved any spectacular wins when he fought Lesnar either and we see how that went

I think JDS is going to end up being the underdog in this fight pretty soon.

I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines as MMA_scientist. My rule of thumb, which has served me fairly well, is to bet a grappler over a striker unless the striker has previously demonstrated an ability to defend takedowns of said grappler's caliber. JDS hasn't yet. Gonzaga and Nelson are good wins, but those guys don't have Lesnar's takedown ability. I'd take Brock at any +odds, though it increasingly looks like I may not be able to get that.

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Originally Posted by Svino

. . . though it increasingly looks like I may not be able to get that.

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Why not? Who are your books?

I mostly use BookMaker now, but it looks like Lesnar's already down to EV everywhere but BetUS.

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Originally Posted by Svino

I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines as MMA_scientist. My rule of thumb, which has served me fairly well, is to bet a grappler over a striker unless the striker has previously demonstrated an ability to defend takedowns of said grappler's caliber. JDS hasn't yet. Gonzaga and Nelson are good wins, but those guys don't have Lesnar's takedown ability. I'd take Brock at any +odds, though it increasingly looks like I may not be able to get that.

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From every single second I've seen him tied up or on the ground, JDS has super quick and agile hips. I feel pretty confident in saying he won't be smothered. Brock is going to have to take him down repeatedly to grind out a win. It just doesn't seem likely. At all.

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Originally Posted by zY|

From every single second I've seen him tied up or on the ground, JDS has super quick and agile hips. I feel pretty confident in saying he won't be smothered. Brock is going to have to take him down repeatedly to grind out a win. It just doesn't seem likely. At all.

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But thats comparing Lesnar to Gonzaga and Nelson ,two people Lesnar would maul.

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Originally Posted by Luke

But thats comparing Lesnar to Gonzaga and Nelson ,two people Lesnar would maul.

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No it's not. It's talking about my perception of his skills and physical attributes, independent of opponent.

Besides, the only fighter who wasn't able to get out from under Brock was Mir, and he's, well, Mir. He gets punched in the face and freezes.

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Originally Posted by zY|

From every single second I've seen him tied up or on the ground, JDS has super quick and agile hips. I feel pretty confident in saying he won't be smothered. Brock is going to have to take him down repeatedly to grind out a win. It just doesn't seem likely. At all.

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Keep in mind this is a three round fight. It's not crazy for Brock to outwrestle him for three rounds. It's feasible.

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Originally Posted by zY|

No it's not. It's talking about my perception of his skills and physical attributes, independent of opponent.

Besides, the only fighter who wasn't able to get out from under Brock was Mir, and he's, well, Mir. He gets punched in the face and freezes.

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Brock has fought a lot of wrestlers..that would be why he has trouble holding his opponents down. Couture, Shane and Cain. That is three opponents out of 7 total fights. If you count Min soo kim. Aside from them he fought Frank twice whom he could hold down(he might have wanted to be on his back so he could try to submit him), and Heath Herring. He basically beat Herring by outwrestling him for three rounds. It proves he can do it. Obviously JDS is much more dangerous than Herring in the standup but we don't know he is a better grappler.

Does anyone have any evidence of JDS being a good wrestler? Gonzaga isn't evidence. He has really weak takedowns. Nelson couldn't take Junior down. That means something, but not a huge amount. Brock should be able to JDS on his back.

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Originally Posted by edman5555

Does anyone have any evidence of JDS being a good wrestler? Gonzaga isn't evidence. He has really weak takedowns. Nelson couldn't take Junior down. That means something, but not a huge amount. Brock should be able to JDS on his back.

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For me, its always the same song with JDS. How is his wrestling? How is he off his back? I've been guilty of it too.

I've seen enough of both guys now. JDS will push your shit in if you get close, and nobody has taken him down. Lesnar looks for the exit when he takes a good punch.

JDS has more ways to win the fight.

All I'm saying is JDS has the physical tools to get up off his back. Sometimes I think some of you focus too much on MMAth results instead of abilities.