UFN 23/Fight for the Troops

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Originally Posted by LudoCain

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Originally Posted by edman5555

Kenny wasn't letting his hands go against Maynard because that would increase his chances of getting taken down. Coming up with gameplans to beat Sherk, BJ Penn, and Gray Maynard is a lot easier said than done. They are some of the top guys at LW.

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Thats My point though. His greatest tool is his ability to strike and set up a finish that way. No hands = no win for Kenny Florian. You'll never see him in a great ground war because his ground game isn't designed that way. He uses his ground game as a means to an end after he's sufficiently rocked his opponent or knocked them down to gain advantageous top position. For him not to throw his hands against Maynard was suicide. He wasn't stopping those takedowns anyway, he might as well go balls out and hope for the best because he's going to end up on his back anyway.

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Well he probably thought he had a better chance of stopping the takedowns than he really did. Hindsight is 20/20

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Originally Posted by edman5555

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Originally Posted by LudoCain

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Originally Posted by edman5555

Kenny wasn't letting his hands go against Maynard because that would increase his chances of getting taken down. Coming up with gameplans to beat Sherk, BJ Penn, and Gray Maynard is a lot easier said than done. They are some of the top guys at LW.

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Thats My point though. His greatest tool is his ability to strike and set up a finish that way. No hands = no win for Kenny Florian. You'll never see him in a great ground war because his ground game isn't designed that way. He uses his ground game as a means to an end after he's sufficiently rocked his opponent or knocked them down to gain advantageous top position. For him not to throw his hands against Maynard was suicide. He wasn't stopping those takedowns anyway, he might as well go balls out and hope for the best because he's going to end up on his back anyway.

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Well he probably thought he had a better chance of stopping the takedowns than he really did. Hindsight is 20/20

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And a bad gameplan is a bad gameplan.

I think Dunham is the only significant addition to LW in the last couple years. Dunham just fought very close with Sherk (IMO Sherk would have won convincingly if not for the long lay off). Dunham has a great ground game, decent wrestling, and pretty good hands. But his bjj is his ace in the hole for sure. I think Dunham might be able to get a takedown or two against Florian, mostly because Dunham goes for the finish... he will wade right into Florian. Florian has a good top game, but his guard is mostly defensive.

IMO, slight edge to FLorian striking; slight edge to Dunham grappling. Takedowns and defense are probably about even. This fight is really close and I think it will be won in the intangibles... gun to head: Dunham by aggression.

Pat Barry vs. Joey Beltran on tap for Jan 22 Fight for the Troops show

http://ht.ly/34Di2

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Originally Posted by Luke

Pat Barry vs. Joey Beltran on tap for Jan 22 Fight for the Troops show

http://ht.ly/34Di2

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I bet joey comes to grapple.

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Originally Posted by MMA_scientist

I think Dunham is the only significant addition to LW in the last couple years. Dunham just fought very close with Sherk (IMO Sherk would have won convincingly if not for the long lay off). Dunham has a great ground game, decent wrestling, and pretty good hands. But his bjj is his ace in the hole for sure. I think Dunham might be able to get a takedown or two against Florian, mostly because Dunham goes for the finish... he will wade right into Florian. Florian has a good top game, but his guard is mostly defensive.

IMO, slight edge to FLorian striking; slight edge to Dunham grappling. Takedowns and defense are probably about even. This fight is really close and I think it will be won in the intangibles... gun to head: Dunham by aggression.

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I don't know. I think Fenflo picks him apart standing. Remember what he did to Guida? That was a demolition.

Dunham hasn't really shown anything impressive in the striking department, he only looked good against Sherk because Shark gassed. Like you said, without the layoff Sherk would have won easily. Thats why I wished there would be a rematch. We probably could have gotten Sherk at Udog odds again.

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Originally Posted by edman5555

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Originally Posted by MMA_scientist

I think Dunham is the only significant addition to LW in the last couple years. Dunham just fought very close with Sherk (IMO Sherk would have won convincingly if not for the long lay off). Dunham has a great ground game, decent wrestling, and pretty good hands. But his bjj is his ace in the hole for sure. I think Dunham might be able to get a takedown or two against Florian, mostly because Dunham goes for the finish... he will wade right into Florian. Florian has a good top game, but his guard is mostly defensive.

IMO, slight edge to FLorian striking; slight edge to Dunham grappling. Takedowns and defense are probably about even. This fight is really close and I think it will be won in the intangibles... gun to head: Dunham by aggression.

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I don't know. I think Fenflo picks him apart standing. Remember what he did to Guida? That was a demolition.

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Guida has no range, and sub par striking.

Dunham hasn't really shown anything special in the striking department. Kenny is a level above him in that dept.

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Originally Posted by edman5555

Dunham hasn't really shown anything impressive in the striking department, he only looked good against Sherk because Shark gassed. Like you said, without the layoff Sherk would have won easily. Thats why I wished there would be a rematch. We probably could have gotten Sherk at Udog odds again.

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I think Dunham's looked pretty good in the striking department. Obviously he's not flawless, but he's clearly outstruck everyone he's fought.

I do think Sherk in top condition would beat him a second time, though, because he'd just run a takedown train on him for three rounds and win a decision.

War Sherk

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Originally Posted by LudoCain

Guida has no range, and sub par striking.

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I agree. His striking isn't that great. I really do like watching him fight, though. His reputation for being someone who just goes balls out is well-deserved, especially when he's pushed.

Dunham may not be a great striker, but he has shown that he can strike... Sherk is actuallya pretty good striker, and he beat Sherk standing. He also floored Per Eklund with a punch. I think he has more power than Kenny... and he has been able to take guys down pretty consistently. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny beat him at all, but I will be surprised if it is a blow out either way. I am not betting it unless somehow one guy is a pretty sizable underdog.

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Originally Posted by SPX

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Originally Posted by Havis Jr

Im betting against kenny until he wins one, and if they keep putting him against the top up and comers like dunham/maynard he is going to lose a lot. LW division is way more talented now then when BJ was champ.

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What top LW fighters are in the UFC now that weren't there when BJ was champ?

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None really, but my perception of who the top guys are has changed a lot. Diego,stevenson,sherk,kenny they were the top dogs when BJ was champ.

When BJ was fighting joe daddy for the lw title, Maynard and Frankie were battling it out on the undercard but either one of them could have beaten bj then and without a doubt now. I would pick maynard,frankie,dunham,soti over kenny or bj now. Styles matter but these new guys are on another level. Flame away.

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Originally Posted by Havis Jr

When BJ was fighting joe daddy for the lw title, Maynard and Frankie were battling it out on the undercard but either one of them could have beaten bj then and without a doubt now. I would pick maynard,frankie,dunham,soti over kenny or bj now. Styles matter but these new guys are on another level. Flame away.

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Don't mind if I do.

BJ would beat any of those guys except Edgar, just due to his boxing style. Sotiroupolous would literally die in the cage against BJ. A guy loses to one guy and suddenly he is horrible. BJ is still a bad ass that generally cannot be taken down. And if you do get him down, he generally whups your ass. I would bet a lot on BJ vs. Sot, and would favor him against everyone else too. I actually think Florian would beat Edgar, personally.

I like Frankie, but aside form the BJ fights, he has looked totally beatable (hence the -600 line when he fought BJ). He lost a round to Veach. He has almost exclusively won by decision. Maynard damn near lost to Diaz (Diaz!). These guys are nothing special. Dunham JUST lost to Sherk. Just now. So how you put him on another level is sort of confusing.

It's too bad BJ is a frontrunner who fights with no strategy. He's been around forever and he's still arguably the most talented MMA fighter ever.

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Originally Posted by zY|

he's still arguably the most talented MMA fighter ever.

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Probably the reason why Me, and probably most, Love him and hate him at the same time.

Dunham beat sherk. I know what the judges said, but your in the minority if you think that was a deserved W.

Ill be the first to admit I can't stand BJ so maybe that affecting my judgement, but him beating stevenson and diego for title defenses is not very impressive. Its like silva beting cote and leites, in retrospect its not that big of an accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Havis Jr

Ill be the first to admit I can't stand BJ so maybe that affecting my judgement, but him beating stevenson and diego for title defenses is not very impressive.

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Maybe not just looking on paper, but the way he beat both of them was pretty impressive, to me anyway.

Diego is good... that's a quality defense IMO. Stevenson is a quality win too IMO... he might not be top 10, but he has beaten some tough guys, Diaz, Guillard, Fisher, Pelligrino, Tibau... not top level, but good. Florian is a quality title defense too. And Sherk, nothing needs to be said. And BJ made all of them look downright silly.

I agree Dunham should have been given the nod, but it was close either way. I think Sherk would win a rematch more convincingly. He obviously gassed out, something he has never done before, and he had been out with injuries forever. So I don't think it is a stretch to say the lay off had some effect on his gas tank.

Look at the guys taht have been able to beat BJ... all champions. He has never lost to a non-champion (aside from when Edgar took the belt from him- which I think he won). BJ is a stud... sometimes he doesn't come in prepared, but he can beat anyone on any given day. I personally think he would destroy Maynard. I am hoping Maynard takes the belt so BJ can get another shot.

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Originally Posted by Havis Jr

Dunham beat sherk. I know what the judges said, but your in the minority if you think that was a deserved W.

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It was close. First round went to Sherk, third went to Dunham. The second was close. I personally gave it to Dunham. But it wasn't a robbery.

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Originally Posted by Havis Jr

Ill be the first to admit I can't stand BJ so maybe that affecting my judgement, but him beating stevenson and diego for title defenses is not very impressive. Its like silva beting cote and leites, in retrospect its not that big of an accomplishment.

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Stevenson's not particularly impressive, but Diego's a tough fight for anyone.

And like Zak said, the WAY he beat them was insane. Sanchez had just got done conclusively beating Stevenson and Guida, and Penn literally outstruck him 150 to 8.