UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

[Svino]

Interesting breakdown, Ludo. But when I think about Pride vs. UFC, I'm thinking more about comparing the guys who were dominant in Pride with the guys who were dominant in the UFC at the same time, not so much the new blood like Machida, Cain, and JDS. Franklin, Couture, Liddell, and Ortiz would probably be the LHW counterparts to the Pride guys I mentioned. Anderson, let's call "shared property". He did leave Prider earlier.

As for Cro Cop, I think Dana hates him. IMO, he's been given consistently bad matchups (not counting Perosh).

[Ludo]

How is Lyoto Machida not listed as a UFC fighter when he never fought in Pride? Especially when the only time he comes up on the above listing of fights he's the defending Champion?

[Luke]

How is Lyoto Machida not listed as a UFC fighter when he never fought in Pride? Especially when the only time he comes up on the above listing of fights he's the defending Champion?

PRIDE wasnt around when Machida made the transition to UFC hows he suppose to fight in it

[Luke]

Anderson Silva fought five times in Pride, never participated in a tournament, never fought for a title there. He fought more often in Cage Rage and Meca.

My bad on Rampage and Henderson in missing one each. I never said they were inferior. I'm just saying the argument can be made that they didn't dominate. There was nothing superhuman about Pride's fighters. They are no better on the whole than any of the UFC's top fighters were/are is all.

So Anderson Silva is a UFC fighter then right?

[Luke]

Interesting breakdown, Ludo. But when I think about Pride vs. UFC, I'm thinking more about comparing the guys who were dominant in Pride with the guys who were dominant in the UFC at the same time, not so much the new blood like Machida, Cain, and JDS. Franklin, Couture, Liddell, and Ortiz would probably be the LHW counterparts to the Pride guys I mentioned. Anderson, let's call "shared property". He did leave Prider earlier.

As for Cro Cop, I think Dana hates him. IMO, he's been given consistently bad matchups (not counting Perosh).

Yes thats exactly what I mean .You cant compare PRIDE fighters from 4 years ago to UFC fighters that just came around within the last year ,thats just silly


Take a look at the top guys when the Pride fighter came over compared to the top UFC fighters at the time:

Tim Sylvia :he's better than Fedor the Pride Champ? nope

Rich Franklin: he's better than Anderson Silva? nope

Liddell :Hes better than Rampage? nope


Franklin was on a 5 fight win streak ,Liddell was on a 7 fight win streak.These guys looked unbeatable and then the Pride guys came over and beat the shit out of both of them and neither has been the same since


If PRIDE would have ever took on the UFC in a head to head battle they would have destroyed their Champs back then .

[Luke]

Dont anyone get mad we can argue back and forth without taking it personal correct?

[Ludo]

Well that almost works. Anderson never fought at 185 in Pride, he was fighting Welterweight at the time he fought in Pride for all of a handful of times. You can't pretend Anderson Silva was a Pride fighter when he already has fought twice as much in the UFC than he ever did during his relatively short time(1 year just about, not including the last time around against Chonan which came after several fights elsewhere).

Furthermore. Pride wasn't sold to the Fertittas until around spring of 2007. Anderson Silva hadn't fought in Pride since 2004, and already had three fights in the UFC by this time. He never held a Pride title, and never participated in any of Pride's tournaments. How can he be classified as a Pride Fighter in the same regard like the rest of these guys who all signed with the UFC AFTER Pride folded when he was already there and winning after not competing in Pride in over 2 years?

[Luke]

Well that almost works. Anderson never fought at 185 in Pride, he was fighting Welterweight at the time he fought in Pride for all of a handful of times. You can't pretend Anderson Silva was a Pride fighter when he already has fought twice as much in the UFC than he ever did during his relatively short time(1 year just about, not including the last time around against Chonan which came after several fights elsewhere).

Furthermore. Pride wasn't sold to the Fertittas until around spring of 2007. Anderson Silva hadn't fought in Pride since 2004, and already had three fights in the UFC by this time. He never held a Pride title, and never participated in any of Pride's tournaments. How can he be classified as a Pride Fighter in the same regard like the rest of these guys who all signed with the UFC AFTER Pride folded when he was already there and winning after not competing in Pride in over 2 years?

Somehow you claim Machida as a UFC fighter and he came to the UFC after the time period I'm taking about but Silva who did fight in PRIDE isnt a Pride fighter .

OK I get it now


So you can tell me with a straight face when the Pride Fighters came over they werent better than:Liddell ,Franklin and Sylvia? Because those were the unbeatables in the UFC at the time and they are all now jokes while Fedor,Rampage,and Silva are far from

[Luke]

Just say the pride fighters that came over are better than what the UFC had at the time . Me using the word dominated is just about like me calling everyone a bum .I dont always mean the exact words I type but most the guys around here know that

[Svino]

I always thought that Anderson did a lot of his "leveling up" in Cage Rage, but no one really noticed because the people he was beating weren't that good. Then he came to the UFC and it was like, "Holy shit! This guy got really good when we weren't looking."

One other thing about Gomi - he's only 31. I hope his chin won't be too far gone at that age. I know people talk a lot about "fight age", reflecting the thought that its the number of fights that matters, but damn; if that's the case, how is Travis Fulton still alive?

[Mr. IWS]

If PRIDE would have ever took on the UFC in a head to head battle they would have destroyed their Champs back then .

I agree. Especially in the HW division. I think Murr and Timmeh would have had a hard time beating the Pride version of Heath Herring back then to be honest.

[MMA_scientist]

Don't want to add to the Pride vs. UFC talk... but

If Anderson Silva is a Pride guy, then Wanderlei and Hendo are UFC fighters, since they both fought in the UFC before going to Pride. I think the weightclasses were about even, except LW where I think Japanese MMA is consistely overrated.

As to Gomi, in his last 5 fights \

he took Seung Bang (11-7) to decision (bang has not won since)
Lost to Sergey Golyaev (16-7) (Golyaev lost his very next fight to Eiji Mitsuoka)
Lost to Saturo Kitaoka (25-10) (Kitaoka is 1-2 since beating Gomi)
Beat Takakura (11-3)
Took Tony Hervey (11-7) to decision (Hervey is 0-2 since losing to Gomi)

None of these guys is even top 30. The only guy on the list with a single credible win is Kitaoka.

It has been 3 years since Gomi has shown up to fight. He does have heavy hands, but Florian has never been dropped by a power shot.

Florian's wrestling is terribly underrated. He can get takedowns. I think he will win the striking and then ground him and finish him off. I expect him to thoughly work Gomi.

Gomi has some credible wins (Ishida, Kawajiri, Hansen is good) but lets not get crazy, his record is mostly cans. He has about 10 legit fights (BJ, Pulver, Aurelio, Mishima, Ishida, Kawajiri, Sakurai, Hansen, and Diaz). In that group, he is 7-3. So in my mind, he is 7-3, and on a streak of fighting small show guys and having difficulties, and sometimes losing.

So... Florian.

[SPX]

Florian's wrestling is terribly underrated.

I was impressed with his ability to completely shrug off Guida's takedown attempts. I know a lot of people talked about how Florian had not fought another strong wrestler since Sherk--and we all know how that went--and were expecting Guida to do his smother routine. Hardly. I don't think Guida got a single takedown that entire fight.

[MMA_scientist]

^^ he did get him down once, but Florian defended well and was able to get up pretty quick. I was more impressed that Kenny took Guida down. I am pretty sure he slammed him down Hughes-style. He has had several big takedowns in his recent fights, but they seem to go unnoticed.

[Ludo]

Actually Machida entered the UFC about a month before Pride was sold to the Fertittas, so...

Also, he was fighting in Japan in all through 2004-2005, just not in Pride. He was fighting in K-1 and Inoki Bon Ba Ye. So since he wasn't fighting in Pride when he could have been, and was fighting in the UFC before most of these Pride fighters came in, that would sort of make him a UFC fighter by default.

I already said if you put Rampage, Wanderlei, Hendo, and Shogun up head to head against Chuck, Tito, Randy, and Franklin it wouldn't even be close 4 years ago. However four years ago we had alot of differences at work here. A ring vs an Octagon, stomps allowed in one but not in the other, steroids permitted in one and not the other.

[Ludo]

As far as it goes with Gomi/Florian. Gomi doesn't have anything to bring with him here than Florian can't deal with. This is like Nick Diaz vs Frank Shamrock. Gomi may not be that far gone, but he might be as well.

[zY|]

Lol scientist, picking and choosing records. You could be a politician.

In my mind, Kenny is 1-2, the only legit fights he's had are Penn, Sherk, and Stevenson.

Look, I just think that if Gomi actually shows up, which I would think he will being in the ufc that it will be a hell of a fight. I don't hink his recent string is due to decline, more just motivation problems. If not, well yeah Kenny will probably handle him. If he gases in 5 seconds we'll know for sure.

Also, are we crediting Guida with good takedowns now?

Maybe I just hate Ben Stillers face, I dunno.

[zY|]

Ludo don't be that guy that goes he steroid route. It's cheap and vindictive and all those guys were later beat up by pride fighters in the ufc.

[SPX]

In my mind, Kenny is 1-2, the only legit fights he's had are Penn, Sherk, and Stevenson.

Guida, Huerta, Lauzon, and Din Thomas are no joke. They may not quite be among the very elite in the division, but neither is Stevenson, who you count as "legitimate."

Not sure where you're going with this or what your standard of "legitimacy" is.

Also, are we crediting Guida with good takedowns now?

Maybe I just hate Ben Stillers face, I dunno.

I think Guida is good at Jon Fitch-style wrestling, where he gets a hold of you and rides your back for three rounds. Generally somewhere in the process his opponent gets taken down. The double-leg is not the only take down in MMA.

[Ludo]

I'm not saying it to be vindictive or cheap. It's a known fact. Wanderlei Silva is one of my all time favorite fighters, but he was on the juice in Japan. Same with Coleman, Same with a few guys in Pride. Not all of the ones who were doing it in Pride crossed over to the UFC. But anyway.

How do we not credit Guida with good takedowns? He was able to take Diego Sanchez down, and Florian, and Diaz, and Gugerty... Ya kinda have to give a guy who manages at least one takedown or more every fight with good takedowns if not better than good takedowns. There is something to be said about the barnacle tactic.

As far as it goes. You have to take this whole "Pride vs UFC" on a subjective case by case basis. We don't know for certain who would have won anything because none of it ever happened until after Pride was purchased and these guys got brought to the UFC to fight. I liked Pride too, it was good, but it wasn't the second coming of christ good. Good fighters will be good fighters no matter WHERE they fight. What defines them as great fighters is skill and level of opposition.