UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

[MMA_scientist]

I think JDS has a great chance. I probably even favor him. I won't bet it unless something is horribly off with the line though. JDS has not fought a wrestler yet, but he will also be the best jiu jitsu player Cain has faced (at least in terms of rank- aside from Nog, who never saw the ground). I think JDS has a standup and power edge, and the ground is a question mark. Cain's top control has not been stifling though, so I think there is at least a chance that JDS can stand up consistently.

[zY|]

Yeah, well JDS is actually a real fighter.

[sbjj]

I have been on the JDS war wagon as well...he is one of my favorite HWs, and I thought he would beat Brock, but I do not see him beating Cain.

Great point. This could be a case where the ONE HW that can beat JDS just happens to wear the belt.

[SPX]

Yeah, well JDS is actually a real fighter.

What's it take to be a real fighter? It's not training, and then fighting people?

Brock's a real fighter. He's worked hard and he's beat other real fighters (Herring, Mir, Carwin, and even an old, undersized Couture are all impressive wins). Give credit where credit is due.

[zY|]

I think JDS has a great chance. I probably even favor him. I won't bet it unless something is horribly off with the line though. JDS has not fought a wrestler yet, but he will also be the best jiu jitsu player Cain has faced (at least in terms of rank- aside from Nog, who never saw the ground). I think JDS has a standup and power edge, and the ground is a question mark. Cain's top control has not been stifling though, so I think there is at least a chance that JDS can stand up consistently.

Are we starting up the "JDS will submit Cain because he trains with Nog even though the last time we saw him on the ground he was submitted" wagon already?

Cain's top control is not 'stifling' only in the sense that he leaves openings to get up because he never stops smashing ass. He literally never stops working to smash face. When was the last time you even saw him sit in someone's guard? I'm trying to remember a single time he was in someone's guard. What good is getting up if you just get slammed back on your head again?

[zY|]

Yeah, well JDS is actually a real fighter.

What's it take to be a real fighter? It's not training, and then fighting people?

Brock's a real fighter. He's worked hard and he's beat other real fighters (Herring, Mir, Carwin, and even an old, undersized Couture are all impressive wins). Give credit where credit is due.

You give credit where credit is due. Saying it's a 'sham' that Cain is champ. Get the fuck out. I'm just ripping Brock on the fact that he clearly isn't comfortable getting punched in the face, whereas JDS certainly reacts more like a fighter should.

[sbjj]

I think JDS has a great chance. I probably even favor him. I won't bet it unless something is horribly off with the line though. JDS has not fought a wrestler yet, but he will also be the best jiu jitsu player Cain has faced (at least in terms of rank- aside from Nog, who never saw the ground). I think JDS has a standup and power edge, and the ground is a question mark. Cain's top control has not been stifling though, so I think there is at least a chance that JDS can stand up consistently.

I have little doubt that Cain will take JDS down if he chooses to. Keeping him down is another story. But keep in mind. The reason dudes get up with cain is because he is busy punching them in the face, and less worried about holding them down like most wrestlers. What happens in the 3rd round after JDS has had two rounds of a guy taking him down and punching on him. My personal belief is that JDS will be physically exhausted and become a punching bag.

[sbjj]

[quote=zY|]

I think JDS has a great chance. I probably even favor him. I won't bet it unless something is horribly off with the line though. JDS has not fought a wrestler yet, but he will also be the best jiu jitsu player Cain has faced (at least in terms of rank- aside from Nog, who never saw the ground). I think JDS has a standup and power edge, and the ground is a question mark. Cain's top control has not been stifling though, so I think there is at least a chance that JDS can stand up consistently.

Are we starting up the "JDS will submit Cain because he trains with Nog even though the last time we saw him on the ground he was submitted" wagon already?

Cain's top control is not 'stifling' only in the sense that he leaves openings to get up because he never stops smashing ass. He literally never stops working to smash face. When was the last time you even saw him sit in someone's guard? I'm trying to remember a single time he was in someone's guard. What good is getting up if you just get slammed back on your head again?[/quote:fv2qehi8]

This is SO true.

[zY|]

BTW, we knew Shields' striking was amazing, but man, this is just K1 level right here.

[MMA_scientist]

Are we starting up the "JDS will submit Cain because he trains with Nog even though the last time we saw him on the ground he was submitted" wagon already?

Cain's top control is not 'stifling' only in the sense that he leaves openings to get up because he never stops smashing ass. He literally never stops working to smash face. When was the last time you even saw him sit in someone's guard? I'm trying to remember a single time he was in someone's guard. What good is getting up if you just get slammed back on your head again?

No definitely not saying JDS will sub Cain. Cain probably has a significant edge on the ground. I am just saying we don't know about JDS's takedown defense against a great wrestler and we don't know about Cain's face smashing against a technical grappler (and we don't know if JDS is a good grappler at all).

But given the quantities that we do know, JDS puts the lights out of fools. And Cain's relentless pace gives openings to stand. It is a close fight.

As an aside, I think there are a lot of fighters that can threaten Cain. I think JDS, Carwin, and Mir would all have a good chance at beating Cain. I like him, I don't think he is some super special HW champ though. I don't think he will defend more than twice personally.

We need to get Cormier up in this bitch.

[poopoo333]

It would have been nice to see JDS fight a wrestler before this fight.

[SPX]

You give credit where credit is due. Saying it's a 'sham' that Cain is champ. Get the fuck out. I'm just ripping Brock on the fact that he clearly isn't comfortable getting punched in the face, whereas JDS certainly reacts more like a fighter should.

Did your ass wake up and eat a bunch of tacos this morning or something?

[SPX]

It would have been nice to see JDS fight a wrestler before this fight.

I agree. I was just thinking about that.

[zY|]

[quote=MMA_scientist]

Are we starting up the "JDS will submit Cain because he trains with Nog even though the last time we saw him on the ground he was submitted" wagon already?

Cain's top control is not 'stifling' only in the sense that he leaves openings to get up because he never stops smashing ass. He literally never stops working to smash face. When was the last time you even saw him sit in someone's guard? I'm trying to remember a single time he was in someone's guard. What good is getting up if you just get slammed back on your head again?

No definitely not saying JDS will sub Cain. Cain probably has a significant edge on the ground. I am just saying we don't know about JDS's takedown defense against a great wrestler and we don't know about Cain's face smashing against a technical grappler (and we don't know if JDS is a good grappler at all).

But given the quantities that we do know, JDS puts the lights out of fools. And Cain's relentless pace gives openings to stand. It is a close fight.

As an aside, I think there are a lot of fighters that can threaten Cain. I think JDS, Carwin, and Mir would all have a good chance at beating Cain. I like him, I don't think he is some super special HW champ though. I don't think he will defend more than twice personally.

We need to get Cormier up in this bitch.[/quote:l18rlaw5]

JDS punches hard, but he's not lights out all the time. Big Country ate his punches all night like they were Double Whoppers with cheese. Cain's chin is more than adequate to eat a few. JDS also gets tagged by everyone. I'd give him the standup advantage but it's not like it's a wash.

Carwin and Mir? I laugh at thee. JDS is the only guy in the UFC that I think is even threatening to Cain. If he wins that fight, I'd rather see him fight Overeem and Fedor.

[MMA_scientist]

I have little doubt that Cain will take JDS down if he chooses to. Keeping him down is another story. But keep in mind. The reason dudes get up with cain is because he is busy punching them in the face, and less worried about holding them down like most wrestlers. What happens in the 3rd round after JDS has had two rounds of a guy taking him down and punching on him. My personal belief is that JDS will be physically exhausted and become a punching bag.

I think the fight will look a lot like the Kongo fight. He will get taken down, he will get up and have his chances. Cain's striking has improved since Kongo, but JDS is bigger and has more power than Kongo and does really well in close quarters with that uppercut. I think JDs will take some punishment, but I think there is a great chance he lands a few big blows and really hurts and tires Cain.

[zY|]

You give credit where credit is due. Saying it's a 'sham' that Cain is champ. Get the fuck out. I'm just ripping Brock on the fact that he clearly isn't comfortable getting punched in the face, whereas JDS certainly reacts more like a fighter should.

Did your ass wake up and eat a bunch of tacos this morning or something?

Nigga haven't you been paying attention? I've been dining on nothing but refried beans for like the last year.

[sbjj]

I think Cain destroys Mir. But i do agree that Carwin presents problems for the first round, maybe round and a half.

On a side note, Cain does not get his wrestling credit in MMA because of the way he takes guys down IMO. He does not pick guys up and slam them. But he mixes his strikes and takedowns well, and he just knows when to go for the takedown.

The reason I will most likely stay away from this fight is because of what Scientist was saying. IMO, this fight has far more questions to be answered than the Lesnar fight did.

[zY|]

I think Cain destroys Mir. But i do agree that Carwin presents problems for the first round, maybe round and a half.

On a side note, Cain does not get his wrestling credit in MMA because of the way he takes guys down IMO. He does not pick guys up and slam them. But he mixes his strikes and takedowns well, and he just knows when to go for the takedown.

The reason I will most likely stay away from this fight is because of what Scientist was saying. IMO, this fight has far more questions to be answered than the Lesnar fight did.

Cain's takedowns are technical brilliance and he always lands on the back or in side control.

[SPX]

Carwin and Mir? I laugh at thee.

I think I think that as long as Carwin could make it more than a round without dying, he could be dangerous to Cain. Carwin was able to neutralize Brock's wrestling (when Brock was able to take Cain down, if only briefly) and Carwin has ultra-power.

[zY|]

Carwin and Mir? I laugh at thee.

I think I think that as long as Carwin could make it more than a round without dying, he could be dangerous to Cain.

So, in some alternate universe he'd be dangerous to Cain. I agree.

And of course he's dangerous for a few minutes.