UFC 123 - Machida/Rampage

[sbjj]

Am I the only one who kinda cares less about this(probably). Harris can go to Strikeforce and prove himself there. It is not like the guy was really all that great. In all honesty, UFC should be cutting MANY more fighters. Let some of the new blood come in there and get a shot. They can not employ every fighter out there.

I don't really care about Harris specifically. It is just that he got cut for no reason, when there are plenty of much worse fighters they decide to keep. Some are explainable, Tito while he hasn't won a fight in 5 years, is at least famous. But they also keep guys like Baroni around, who is just horrible, and no one cares to see him. Then they have all these mid level guys like Kimmons and Grove, who are good, but will never be champs. I just don't like the criteria they use to cut or keep a fighter.

They also cut Efrain for what seems like no reason at all. He is better than most of the LW's out there. So he got beat by title contender Dunham and uber prospect Oliveira. He also brought it in his fights most of the time, I just don't get it.

The guy could not make weight. I am sure that pissed off Dana. I am sure there are reasons some guys stick around while others do not. As long as an obvious top guy is not cut, I could care less. I see no reason why the UFC has to give us a certain criteria on who they keep and cut.

[sbjj]

You got me on why Kimmons is still around. That dude should be gone...unless he is paying the UFC to fight.

[SPX]

Yea, they should. Just like just about anyone out there in the job market feels that way. Dana should let these guys know what he expects from them though. IMO, Harris is a good fighter, but nothing incredibly special. The guy will still get paid, and should have a decent career. I will not cry for the guy, he will be just fine.

I think that there needs to be some modicum of decency and loyalty from to the UFC to the fighters. And I think that at least some minimum standard needs to be established as to what gets you cut and what doesn't.

For instance, I think that you should have to lose AT LEAST two in a row to get cut. Everyone can have a bad night and lose a fight. Going 3-1 and having the boss say, "Sorry, you underperformed in your last fight, you're gone" is unacceptable.

[MMA_scientist]

Yea, they should. Just like just about anyone out there in the job market feels that way. Dana should let these guys know what he expects from them though. IMO, Harris is a good fighter, but nothing incredibly special. The guy will still get paid, and should have a decent career. I will not cry for the guy, he will be just fine.

A company has teh right to hire or fire an employee for any or no reason (except an illegal reason), but that doesn't mean I cheer for the company when they make an arbitrary firing, not based on performance. I am on the side of the employee. I understand they have the right, but it doesn't mean we should like it. Just like any other business that does things I don't like, I might choose not to support that business because of their practices.

I agree that Harris was nothing special... but he was definitely in the top half of thier talent pool at MW. But he will go to SF or Bellator, he will be fine. It is not about Harris for me, it is just about the UFC and their ridiculous and arbitrary standards.

[MMA_scientist]

It is obvious what the standard is... Dana wants you to go out on your shield no matter what. Guys that do that get to stay around and even get rewarded. Guys that fight safe get pissed on. Maia got his ass whipped by AS. Dana threatened to cut AS, the best fighter in the org. Demian gets 2 gimme fights and a headliner against a guy who is going to get his 4 foot long arms torn off. Leben is another example... guy gets arrested several times, he is not even that good a fighter (remember when Kalib Starnes beat him), but as long as he is willing to give himself brain damage rather than go to decision, he has a job. Dana tried to cut Fitch a while back too over the video game thing... it is just retarded.

[sbjj]

Jeez, if you guys could see all the poor dudes(and women) who are fired from companies for simply just not cutting the companies standards some of you would commit suicide. Why keep Harris around? There are plenty of fighters out there that will come in and go for it(the win). More fighters should be cut. They should cut 15%(at least of their roster). Shit, for all we know, they may just keep CroCop and Baroni around to keep them away from Strikeforce.

They can not lose with cutting a guy like Harris. he goes to Strikeforce, Strikeforce builds him up, and then UFC picks him back up.

[SPX]

I honestly think that there should be some sort of "employee handbook" that lays it out in black and white. Most companies have that.

[sbjj]

I think Harris was just unlucky. The Nate-Okami show was very bad...alot of fighters not doing shit. then the Harris fight happened. After the fight all the fans were VERY PISSED off. Dana made an example of him. Now some of the fans who were pissed off at his performance are pissed off he was cut. Poor dude should have just tapped in the first.

[sbjj]

I honestly think that there should be some sort of "employee handbook" that lays it out in black and white. Most companies have that.

These guys are professionals(kind of). They should go out there and try to win their fights. They should also attempt to finish fights.

[SPX]

sbjj, are you self-employed or do you work for someone else?

[MMA_scientist]

I am self employed, and I have worked for others in the past. I understand the need to be able to do business... and i think the LAW is right, that employees can be fired for no reason at all. But there is a reason that employees have a right to unionize, because they continually get hosed by employers. Unions are generally bad for the economy IMO, but they are sometimes needed. Generally, if you are fired for no reason, you have the recourse of unemployment. These guys are contractors, so they don't even have that. In MMA the demand for athletes is not as high as other sports. A guy drafted to the NBA for example, he has negotiating power. The teams want him just as much as he wants in the NBA. In MMA, only Fedor and Brock have bargaining power. Yet people bitch when Fedor actually tries to negotiate...

[SPX]

Yet people bitch when Fedor actually tries to negotiate...

Fedor asks for too much. Co-promotion?

He's cool and all, but he's just one guy.

[MMA_scientist]

^ well you don't know what the negotiation was like. They may have seen that as a ridiculous offer, but some of the UFC terms are ridiculous too... my point is that the UFC has all the power in negotiation. Other sports the athletes have some negotiating room. I respect Fedor for not giving in and I hope he never does.

[sbjj]

sbjj, are you self-employed or do you work for someone else?

I have worked minimum wage jobs, I have worked for a union, I have worked a pure commission job, and currently work for myself. I was somewhat scared of losing my job at all times. I knew I had to perform at all times. The Union(one of the biggest) I worked for did not do shit for me, and the non union workers that worked for the same company made more and recieved two bonuses(nice ones) a year that I did not. they also had a matching 401K that as a union member I could not have. that later changed. IMO, most unions do nothing but feed off the people in them. The company I worked for had the same termination ploicies for union and non union employees.

My philosophy was to always do the best job I could(reasonably), but if he wanted to fire me, screw him, I will find as good a job if not better one somewhere else.

[sbjj]

^ well you don't know what the negotiation was like. They may have seen that as a ridiculous offer, but some of the UFC terms are ridiculous too... my point is that the UFC has all the power in negotiation. Other sports the athletes have some negotiating room. I respect Fedor for not giving in and I hope he never does.

i think UFC fighters do fine. If I had a company, I would pay a fighter a decent amount to get my name on a UFC card(assuming it is televised). I really think these guys do alright. If they do not, you would not have these guys doing everything they can to make it to the UFC. And I am sure most UFC fighters(the good ones) have at least some leverage. A fighter like Leben could easily make decent money in Strikeforce. The uFC knows that and so in essence he does have leverage.

[SPX]

i think UFC fighters do fine. If I had a company, I would pay a fighter a decent amount to get my name on a UFC card(assuming it is televised). I really think these guys do alright. If they do not, you would not have these guys doing everything they can to make it to the UFC. And I am sure most UFC fighters(the good ones) have at least some leverage. A fighter like Leben could easily make decent money in Strikeforce. The uFC knows that and so in essence he does have leverage.

The goal is generally to make as much in sponsorships as you do for the fight itself. Some fighters make more. But a lot make less, especially if the fight is not guaranteed to actually get on TV.

[sbjj]

i think UFC fighters do fine. If I had a company, I would pay a fighter a decent amount to get my name on a UFC card(assuming it is televised). I really think these guys do alright. If they do not, you would not have these guys doing everything they can to make it to the UFC. And I am sure most UFC fighters(the good ones) have at least some leverage. A fighter like Leben could easily make decent money in Strikeforce. The uFC knows that and so in essence he does have leverage.

The goal is generally to make as much in sponsorships as you do for the fight itself. Some fighters make more. But a lot make less, especially if the fight is not guaranteed to actually get on TV.

How do you know. Most sponsors(I would assume) would not want that info. released. And the whole point is to get good enough to make it to T.V.

Why do you think all these wanna be actors have to hold two or three jobs along with trying to become famous.

[MMA_scientist]

Ultimately you are right, sbjj. They will get paid what the market will bear. As much as we want to believe it is not so, at this point, the market for MMA fighters is not the same as major sports. No one gives a shit about Gerald Harris. Outside of very dedicated fans, no one even knows who he is. I have a buddy that watches every UFC with me, but he doesn't follow it online and what not. He didn't know who Harris was.

His services are being valued at the rate the market dictates.

But, I don't have to like it or think it is the right thing for the UFC to do.

[SPX]

How do you know. Most sponsors(I would assume) would not want that info. released.

I know because that's what I was told by two different fighters.

You have to remember that I write for an MMA magazine. I have to research a lot of different aspects of the sport and the industry, and I've gotten to talk to a decent handful of people involved with various aspects of the whole thing. I'm still a neophyte but I'm learning a lot pretty quickly.

Including Gerald Harris, who I did a profile on for this month's issue of UMMA, which is probably why I'm pretty defensive about this bullshit the UFC is pulling. I've communicated with him several times now and he's actually a really cool guy. I want to see him treated fairly and reasonably.

[edman5555]

Can you estimate pay for the average fighter? Not the top 10 guys but the guys just beneath that? How much does a first time ufc fighter get in sponsorships for a televised fight?

I read Sean McCorkle said he got about 25k total for his fight against Hunt.