Strikeforce's 2011 Heavyweight Grand-Prix

[zY|]

Yes exactly, the old big HWs weren't any good. The skilled guys were much smaller. Cro cop(220-230), Fedor(225-230), Big nog (235). There were obv some guys around 240-250(barnett, heath herring) but not that many.


How can you say the heavyweights aren't getting bigger? Guys are cutting to make 265 now (Lesnar, Carwin, Bigfoot Silva). Even Cain and Junior both weigh in around 245. Beyond that there are a lot of guys weighing in around 250-265 that are good. Obviously fighters are getting bigger. We just witnessed that last night. You have to be joking right? The best heavyweight of all time just got beat by a guy named "BIGFOOT". There couldn't be a better example than that.

Because it's just not true. There have always been huge guys in the sport. Lesnar is essentially Mark Kerr 2.0, and Carwin and Rogers are like 2010 versions of Paul Varelans. Hell, Bob Sapp fought Nogueira at like 375 pounds almost 10 years ago. Tim Sylvia was 6'8", cutting to 265 and champion 7 years ago. Pedro Rizzo was 245. Frank Mir was 250ish 8 years ago. Ricco Rodriguez was like 250 and champion. So was Josh Barnett. This is nothing new. Yet would you be really surprised if a guy like Jon Jones threw them all on their head? I wouldn't bat an eye. Big HWs are clumsy and unskilled. Who cares.

And Fedor didn't lose because Bigfoot is big. He lost because his defensive grappling was terrible and he had zero gameplan.

[zY|]

If you look at fights in the HW division today, size is not a good predictor of performance.

Exactly. And this is really the only thing that matters.

[edman5555]

Yeah, I won't deny that the HW division as a whole has crept up a little in size, but I can't see it as a "this generation is much better than the last generation" thing.

If you look at fights in the HW division today, size is not a good predictor of performance. (When I see a Shane Carwin whose best round really is the 5th, I may change my mind.)

Well I think your misunderstanding me a little bit. I'm not saying Shane Carwin is better than Fedor/Cro cop/Big Nog but I think he would have a good chance of beating all of them. The main reason is he is so god damn big. He weighs about 280 pounds. He doesn't have to be as skilled as them. He can be 70% their skill level. He makes up for the rest with size. Back in the day, there wasn't anyone that was 280 pounds AND pretty good skillwise. Shane Carwin = Pretty good skillwise.

[Svino]

I do think Bigfoot's size helped him quite a bit with his top control of Fedor and his ability to do damage from mount. Fedor has never had to deal with someone of that size and skill on the ground.

[edman5555]

Because it's just not true. There have always been huge guys in the sport. Lesnar is essentially Mark Kerr 2.0, and Carwin and Rogers are like 2010 versions of Paul Varelans. Hell, Bob Sapp fought Nogueira at like 375 pounds almost 10 years ago. Tim Sylvia was 6'8", cutting to 265 and champion 7 years ago. Pedro Rizzo was 245. Frank Mir was 250ish 8 years ago. Ricco Rodriguez was like 250 and champion. So was Josh Barnett. This is nothing new. Yet would you be really surprised if a guy like Jon Jones threw them all on their head? I wouldn't bat an eye. Big HWs are clumsy and unskilled. Who cares.

And Fedor didn't lose because Bigfoot is big. He lost because his defensive grappling was terrible and he had zero gameplan.

Okay some of what your saying makes sense to me but Fedor got beat last night because he had a 280 pound BJJ Black belt on top of him. If Bigfoot weighed 230 I don't think that fight would of went that way. I can't say what his gameplan was because I don't know.

[edman5555]

Because it's just not true. There have always been huge guys in the sport. Lesnar is essentially Mark Kerr 2.0, and Carwin and Rogers are like 2010 versions of Paul Varelans. Hell, Bob Sapp fought Nogueira at like 375 pounds almost 10 years ago. Tim Sylvia was 6'8", cutting to 265 and champion 7 years ago. Pedro Rizzo was 245. Frank Mir was 250ish 8 years ago. Ricco Rodriguez was like 250 and champion. So was Josh Barnett. This is nothing new. Yet would you be really surprised if a guy like Jon Jones threw them all on their head? I wouldn't bat an eye. Big HWs are clumsy and unskilled. Who cares.

And Fedor didn't lose because Bigfoot is big. He lost because his defensive grappling was terrible and he had zero gameplan.

Okay some of what your saying makes sense to me but Fedor got beat last night because he had a 280 pound BJJ Black belt on top of him. If Bigfoot weighed 230 I don't think that fight would of went that way. I can't say what his gameplan was because I don't know.

[Svino]

I'm not saying Shane Carwin is better than Fedor/Cro cop/Big Nog but I think he would have a good chance of beating all of them.

I think he'd have a decent chance of winning any of those fights, but I don't think his odds of going through all three in succession would be too good. i.e., today's top heavies are comparable to (or maybe a little better than) those of 5 years ago.

I surely agree that an all-time competition between the best 270+ guys from all eras would be dominated by current fighters, but so what? The point is just to be good, not necessarily good and big.

[Svino]

I'm not saying Shane Carwin is better than Fedor/Cro cop/Big Nog but I think he would have a good chance of beating all of them.

I think he'd have a decent chance of winning any of those fights, but I don't think his odds of going through all three in succession would be too good. i.e., today's top heavies are comparable to (or maybe a little better than) those of 5 years ago.

I surely agree that an all-time competition between the best 270+ guys from all eras would be dominated by current fighters, but so what? The point is just to be good, not necessarily good and big.

[edman5555]

alright is there something wrong with this forum? I'm having trouble logging in.

[edman5555]

I think he'd have a decent chance of winning any of those fights, but I don't think his odds of going through all three in succession would be too good. i.e., today's top heavies are comparable to (or maybe a little better than) those of 5 years ago.

I surely agree that an all-time competition between the best 270+ guys from all eras would be dominated by current fighters, but so what? The point is just to be good, not necessarily good and big.

Well that was kinda my point. Now we have guys that are really big and really good. I may have overlooked some old era fighters that were big and good but I think there are more of them now. Last night was a good example. Fedor couldn't get out from underneath Bigfoot because he was just too big and he was a BJJ black belt.

[MMA_scientist]

There are only 2 guys that are really bigger than your average heavyweight, Lesnar and Carwin. Bigfoot is big too, but I actually thought Werdum was the bigger man when the fought. The overall size of the top 10 may have crept up slightly, but I don't think there has been some seizmic shift. Most of the best HW's are still well under the limit. It is just hard to be athletic and over a certain size.

As for the contract thing, they can't force the man to fight. It is possible that he would have to repay some money if he did not finish the contract out, depending on how the pay was structured. But this is extremely unlikely, and if he wants to retire, he will most likely be able to without penalty. It might be a little more complex than your average contract because Fedor actually owns a pecentage of M1, which means he was actually a co-promoter for the fight. But he is russian, so who knows. Finklestein probably has a clause in there where he has to go to a prison camp if he retires and leaves M1 without any negotiating power.

[MMA_scientist]

But if Fedor got a signing bonus that was contingent on him fulfilling the contract, he could have to pay it back. It happened to Ricky Williams.

[Ludo]

I'm doubting he got a signing bonus seeing as he is likely paid fight by fight. So it isn't as though Strikeforce loses money or is suddenly left in the lurch if he's not going to fight anymore.

Lets not act like Bigfoot is a shitty fighter here, guys. To say the only reason Fedor couldn't get up was because Bigfoot was bigger is bullshit. Anyone remember Mark Hunt? Anyone remember Hong Man Choi? Both these guys outweighed Fedor by a ton of weight, easily as much as Bigfoot did and in Choi's case it was 129lbs. Both guys were on top of Fedor and both times he was able to get back up. It is not a "size" issue, it is a skill issue.

[edman5555]

I'm doubting he got a signing bonus seeing as he is likely paid fight by fight. So it isn't as though Strikeforce loses money or is suddenly left in the lurch if he's not going to fight anymore.

Lets not act like Bigfoot is a shitty fighter here, guys. To say the only reason Fedor couldn't get up was because Bigfoot was bigger is bullshit. Anyone remember Mark Hunt? Anyone remember Hong Man Choi? Both these guys outweighed Fedor by a ton of weight, easily as much as Bigfoot did and in Choi's case it was 129lbs. Both guys were on top of Fedor and both times he was able to get back up. It is not a "size" issue, it is a skill issue.

It is a size+skill issue.

[edman5555]

Big Nog couldn't do that shit to Fedor.

[Luke]

As for the contract thing, they can't force the man to fight. It is possible that he would have to repay some money if he did not finish the contract out, depending on how the pay was structured. But this is extremely unlikely, and if he wants to retire, he will most likely be able to without penalty. It might be a little more complex than your average contract because Fedor actually owns a pecentage of M1, which means he was actually a co-promoter for the fight. But he is russian, so who knows. Finklestein probably has a clause in there where he has to go to a prison camp if he retires and leaves M1 without any negotiating power.

You're lying, he's got 3 fights left on his contract he's not allowed to retire .

[poopoo333]

I'm doubting he got a signing bonus seeing as he is likely paid fight by fight. So it isn't as though Strikeforce loses money or is suddenly left in the lurch if he's not going to fight anymore.

Lets not act like Bigfoot is a shitty fighter here, guys. To say the only reason Fedor couldn't get up was because Bigfoot was bigger is bullshit. Anyone remember Mark Hunt? Anyone remember Hong Man Choi? Both these guys outweighed Fedor by a ton of weight, easily as much as Bigfoot did and in Choi's case it was 129lbs. Both guys were on top of Fedor and both times he was able to get back up. It is not a "size" issue, it is a skill issue.

It's kind of hard to compare Choi and Hunt's top control to Silva's though..

[SPX]

It is a size+skill issue.

I agree.

And this thread is full of assholes.

I'm pretty much sick is posting here.

[zY|]

And this thread is full of assholes.

I'm pretty much sick is posting here.

Ahh, I see our Inception was successful.

[Luke]

I agree.

And this thread is full of assholes.

I'm pretty much sick is posting here.

Listen me and Zy might not have been as nice as we could have been about the retirement thing but when you have two people that dont know what they're talking about saying:

you're wrong

you're wrong

you're wrong

people tend to get irritated . I mean here was one of your first responses :

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

That's what a contract is: A legal agreement to do something. If Fedor says he's going to fight five fights and signs on the line, then SF could threaten legal action if he breaks that contract.

Not sure what the controversy is here.

You go nuts saying " I dont know what the fuck you're talking about" acting like me and zy are completely stupid for thinking he can retire when he still has a contract and we're the ones that are right.

Then after being proved wrong instead of coming back and admitting it you call US assholes ,seriously?


I like you X but damn