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Thread: Official IWS Traditional Martial Arts Thread

  1. #21
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    This thread is fucking stupid.

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    Senior Member Ludo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopoo333 View Post
    This thread is fucking stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I'm a effectiveness type of guy. I like the art that uses the least amount of energy to produce the most result. Krav Maga fascinates Me because it doesn't get any more "real" than that. It is the product of the true to life need for a system designed for disadvantaged combat. How to survive an encounter with an assailant who might have a knife, who might come out of nowhere, who might have a buddy waiting for you to be preoccupied and tied up with the other guy to come from behind you.
    You see, I think that is cool, too. But I think it would be cool more as a set of principles--or perhaps as the occasional reality-based self-defense workshop--that is tacked onto an existing art, not as a system unto itself. If you watch the wing chun Fight Quest episode (speaking of that, you watched any of those yet?) then they'll do shit where like 7 guys corner a dude in an alley and swarm him to give him the experience of being attacked by multiple guys in a small space. That's cool. So I think exercises like that are valuable, but it's not what I would want to train everyday.

    One thing I have come to realize is that most people go their whole lives without a real, serious self-defense encounter. So if your focus is on self-defense ALL the time, then it's the equivalent of a boxer training for a fight that's never going to happen. Now if someone just likes the training, then fine. But personally, if I'm going to devote myself to a style, then it would need to be something that has some other outlet for actually using the skills that I'm spending so much time developing, i.e. some sport component.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I've also always loved Muay Thai, as you may have noticed by the av I used to use with the caption reading "Muay thai fighters do it in the clinch". I like Muay Thai because it applies the principle that every part of your body is a weapon. Not just kicks and punches, but elbows and knees which give you the option to strike from several distances. Also the history of it, and the legend of Nai Khanon who was captured by the Burmese and forced to fight nine Burmese boxers consecutively with breaks. He eventually beat them all with muay thai techniques and the king of Burma was so impressed he released Nai Khanon.
    I've got nothing against muay Thai but I don't especially like it either. For one, the Thai history--which seems to appeal to you so much--is not particularly interesting to me. I mean, it is of moderate interest. But I've always been far more interested in China, Japan and Korea than I have any of the Southeast Asian countries.

    For another, a lot of MTers are fucking pricks who think that MT is the end-all-be-all of striking arts and that if you don't do muay Thai then you're doing something inferior. They also like to attack their own, such as in this thread, where they crack on a girl who apparently has an undefeated MMA record (I bet the TS didn't realize that when he posted it):

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/pr...-thai-1964517/

    Another pet peeve is that, since muay Thai uses elbows and knees in their competition rules, there's become this widespread notion that other styles don't use them. Karate has elbows and knees, and we've seen both from Machida. I remember doing elbows and knees in TKD forms back when I was like 11. So they're there. If a practitioner chooses not to train them or focus on them because they're not a part of their art's sport component, well that's on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    These arts were developed as a means of personal defense rather than a way to be spiritually at peace, or for fitness, or for the sake of the perfect form.
    Most arts were, though. Also, if you do some research, I bet you'll find that MT a couple of hundred years ago only somewhat resembled the MT of today's modern ring sport. If you watch one of the Tony Jaa movies--can't remember which one--he does what looks like a kata with really low stances. That's old school, but that's the way it was done until recently.

    But to look at other styles, take Wado-ryu karate, for instance. Wado-ryu is actually a fusion of Shotokan, jujutsu and principles borrowed from Kendo, or so I was told the other day from the guy who was training me. There are a lot of very practical principles involved, like having more upright, natural stances than many other styles (this comes from Kendo), having the least wasted motion in the blocks and strikes (the typical fighting stance is such that you should have the straightest line possible between your fist and your target), and an emphasis on striking to vital areas, like the eyes, throat and groin (this comes from jujutsu).

    However, while in my opinion many traditional styles (if taught and trained appropriately) are perfectly capable of be used both defensively and offensively, they also provide other benefits as well.
    Last edited by SPX; 01-14-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopoo333 View Post
    This thread is fucking stupid.
    Yeah, reminds me of all those videos you post where you do nothing but lift heavy shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Yeah, reminds me of all those videos you post where you do nothing but lift heavy shit.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Ludo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    You see, I think that is cool, too. But I think it would be cool more as a set of principles--or perhaps as the occasional reality-based self-defense workshop--that is tacked onto an existing art, not as a system unto itself. If you watch the wing chun Fight Quest episode (speaking of that, you watched any of those yet?) then they'll do shit where like 7 guys corner a dude in an alley and swarm him to give him the experience of being attacked by multiple guys in a small space. That's cool. So I think exercises like that are valuable, but it's not what I would want to train everyday.
    I didn't watch all the fight quest episodes yet. I like the Human Weapon series better but I'm watching them slowly. I agree that an exercise quite like that wouldn't be an everyday thing, but it stems from a time where that was a very real possibility in the day to day. Even today in the wrong area that can happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    One thing I have come to realize is that most people go their whole lives without a real, serious self-defense encounter. So if your focus is on self-defense ALL the time, then it's the equivalent of a boxer training for a fight that's never going to happen. Now if someone just likes the training, then fine. But personally, if I'm going to devote myself to a style, then it would need to be something that has some other outlet for actually using the skills that I'm spending so much time developing, i.e. some sport component.
    I agree that most people never encounter a situation that calls for self defense in their entire lives but then again thats not who Krav Maga is for. Krav Maga was designed by and for a people who faced the threat of an attempt on their lives at any time on any day. It's also become somewhat of a military facet much like brazilian jiu jitsu has for the american forces. There is definitely something to be said for the cultural difference between the region where kung fu was created as opposed to where say savate was created, or bartitsu. You don't see quite the emphasis on beauty as you would see from an eastern culture in the systems designed for use in european back alleys.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I've got nothing against muay Thai but I don't especially like it either. For one, the Thai history--which seems to appeal to you so much--is not particularly interesting to me. I mean, it is of moderate interest. But I've always been far more interested in China, Japan and Korea than I have any of the Southeast Asian countries.
    One thing that sort of deterred Me from the arts based out of the above countries are the sheer number of them. You have literally hundreds of different styles and forms like dialects changing from village to village and city to city. Many of the styles in China were classified still as kung fu but can be as far apart from one another in actual content that it sort of turned Me off to them. I will say that if any particular system that was wholly central asian based appealed to Me it would be Jeet Kun Do because of the legend associated with it, the legacy behind it going back even further than Bruce to Yip Kai-Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    For another, a lot of MTers are fucking pricks who think that MT is the end-all-be-all of striking arts and that if you don't do muay Thai then you're doing something inferior. They also like to attack their own, such as in this thread, where they crack on a girl who apparently has an undefeated MMA record (I bet the TS didn't realize that when he posted it):

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/pr...-thai-1964517/
    I don't really have an opinion on the typical attitude of the people who claim muay thai as their primary martial art, I'm more interested in the art itself than the people in it today if that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Another pet peeve is that, since muay Thai uses elbows and knees in their competition rules, there's become this widespread notion that other styles don't use them. Karate has elbows and knees, and we've seen both from Machida. I remember doing elbows and knees in TKD forms back when I was like 11. So they're there. If a practitioner chooses not to train them or focus on them because they're not a part of their art's sport component, well that's on them.
    I didn't mean to imply that other martial arts didn't incorporate elbows and knees, what I meant was that those attacks play a much larger role in muay thai than they do in say shotokan. I have noticed that while it is seen and portrayed as a more aggressive art that it is passive in it's own way. Where many martial arts put an emphasis on controlling distance muay thai is flexible in the fact that distance become less important than being prepared to use it effectively regardless of what it might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Also, if you do some research, I bet you'll find that MT a couple of hundred years ago only somewhat resembled the MT of today's modern ring sport. If you watch one of the Tony Jaa movies--can't remember which one--he does what looks like a kata with really low stances. That's old school, but that's the way it was done until recently.
    Yeah it has been civilized quite a bit. Back in the day, even as recently as sixty years ago it wasn't uncommon for there to be several deaths in the ring for muay thai contests. They fought without gloves(either bare handed or with hands wrapped in cord), without rounds, and without referee's I think(I may be wrong on this last one) until one guy had clearly lost.
    Last edited by SPX; 01-14-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I didn't watch all the fight quest episodes yet. I like the Human Weapon series better but I'm watching them slowly.
    I'd definitely say to keep watching, because I think Fight Quest really is a superior show. It should grow on you. Doug is a way cooler host than either of those guys on HW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I agree that an exercise quite like that wouldn't be an everyday thing, but it stems from a time where that was a very real possibility in the day to day. Even today in the wrong area that can happen.
    It can definitely happen and self-defense is still one of the big reasons that I'm into martial arts. Though in this modern era, I think that anyone who is REALLY interested in defending their life will carry a firearm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    There is definitely something to be said for the cultural difference between the region where kung fu was created as opposed to where say savate was created, or bartitsu. You don't see quite the emphasis on beauty as you would see from an eastern culture in the systems designed for use in european back alleys.
    That's true, though I think Savate is cool, too. And to be honest, I don't regard many kung fu styles as being truly practical for self-defense. I think kung fu is cool, and it's interesting to watch, and I'm sure it's interesting to practice, but by and large I think it's a bit of a stretch. With that said, though, who knows, maybe there are some rare people who really understand their art who can use Eagle Claw or Snake Style on the street. I dunno.

    If someone told me that they wanted a traditional style that is still useful today for practical defense, I would almost certainly point them to something from either Japan or Korea.

    When I get older I do think I might want to study one of the Chinese internal styles though, like tai chi, pa kua, or hsing-i.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    One thing that sort of deterred Me from the arts based out of the above countries are the sheer number of them. You have literally hundreds of different styles and forms like dialects changing from village to village and city to city. Many of the styles in China were classified still as kung fu but can be as far apart from one another in actual content that it sort of turned Me off to them.
    Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't use it as a reason to deter you, though. Even though there are many styles, there are only a handful that are really popular. And if you actually wanted to formally study something, you would be even further hindered by what's available in your area.

    Once you get out of China the situation is a lot more manageable. From Korea, there's basically just TKD and hapkido to choose from, with a few different versions of each. From Japan, there's karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, ninjutsu and some weapon arts. Karate, of course, breaks down into a multitude of styles, but most are fairly similar, unlike the situation with kung fu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I will say that if any particular system that was wholly central asian based appealed to Me it would be Jeet Kun Do because of the legend associated with it, the legacy behind it going back even further than Bruce to Yip Kai-Man.
    Yip Man's only connection to JKD is through Bruce, who studied wing chun with Yip Man, as I'm assuming you know. Bruce actually initially created Jun Fan Gung Fu before JKD.

    I think that JKD is interesting, but it's less a style, than it is a collection of principles and concepts. Because of this, it can vary quite a bit from one teacher to the next.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I don't really have an opinion on the typical attitude of the people who claim muay thai as their primary martial art, I'm more interested in the art itself than the people in it today if that makes sense.
    The thing about a martial art is that if it's something you're going to actually train in, then you have to adopt the community that comes along with it. Plenty of MTers are perfectly cool people. In fact, I'm sure most are. But a lot of them are dickheads and their attitude of "if you're not Muay Thai, you're not shit" is well known.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that other martial arts didn't incorporate elbows and knees, what I meant was that those attacks play a much larger role in muay thai than they do in say shotokan.
    That's true. Though of course each individual practitioner is free to place their own preferred emphasis on techniques in training, and a lot of traditional schools are also starting to train elbows, knees and leg kicks a lot more than they used to. It's the MMA age, after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I have noticed that while it is seen and portrayed as a more aggressive art that it is passive in it's own way. Where many martial arts put an emphasis on controlling distance muay thai is flexible in the fact that distance become less important than being prepared to use it effectively regardless of what it might be.
    An interesting observation. I've never thought about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    Yeah it has been civilized quite a bit. Back in the day, even as recently as sixty years ago it wasn't uncommon for there to be several deaths in the ring for muay thai contests. They fought without gloves(either bare handed or with hands wrapped in cord), without rounds, and without referee's I think(I may be wrong on this last one) until one guy had clearly lost.
    I actually wrote an article on muay Thai for UMMA not too long ago and got to talk to Mark Dellagrotte. It was an interesting experience. For the article I had to do a bit of research on the history of muay Thai and, if I am remembering correctly, muay Thai actually came from a variety of different Southeast Asian styles that were collectively known as muay boran. My understanding was that muay boran was basically the same as saying "kung fu" . . . it was just an umbrella term. Over time these styles came together and eventually formed the basis for the modern system of muay Thai.
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    ^^^^^I didnt read that post, but I am impressed with the amount of quotes and the format with which you replied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. IWS View Post
    ^^^^^I didnt read that post, but I am impressed with the amount of quotes and the format with which you replied.

    Kudos my man.
    BOL
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Ludo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I'd definitely say to keep watching, because I think Fight Quest really is a superior show. It should grow on you. Doug is a way cooler host than either of those guys on HW.
    I had to quit watching the Kung Fu Monk episode because the shit was just too much. There was way too much emphasis on cardio than actual techniques which seemed to not quite do justice to the art itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    It can definitely happen and self-defense is still one of the big reasons that I'm into martial arts. Though in this modern era, I think that anyone who is REALLY interested in defending their life will carry a firearm.
    Yeah but there are people who are literally afraid to end up having killed someone. They don't want to have to end up taking someone's life even in a situation where their own might be at risk. I have to think at least some of those people are drawn to martial arts for the sake that it's, on the whole, much less lethal than a firearm but may still see you through being attacked by someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    That's true, though I think Savate is cool, too. And to be honest, I don't regard many kung fu styles as being truly practical for self-defense. I think kung fu is cool, and it's interesting to watch, and I'm sure it's interesting to practice, but by and large I think it's a bit of a stretch. With that said, though, who knows, maybe there are some rare people who really understand their art who can use Eagle Claw or Snake Style on the street. I dunno.
    I like the principles of savate in that it's something you could have done under dim torchlight in the streets of London circa 1890 in a fucking dress suit and top hat. It was created for the every-man to perhaps persuade a thief to target someone else next time, or to make it home safely from work/the pub. But the real intrigue of savate, at least for Me, is what it helped lay the ground for in european kickboxing along with traditional asian martial arts. It just goes to show that you didn't have to be asian to develop a style of fighting that made ample use of kicks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    When I get older I do think I might want to study one of the Chinese internal styles though, like tai chi, pa kua, or hsing-i.
    I can see the appeal of this kind of thing, but I don't think it'd ever be for Me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Once you get out of China the situation is a lot more manageable. From Korea, there's basically just TKD and hapkido to choose from, with a few different versions of each. From Japan, there's karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, ninjutsu and some weapon arts. Karate, of course, breaks down into a multitude of styles, but most are fairly similar, unlike the situation with kung fu.
    Does Aikido even work outside of a dojo setting? I don't think I've ever heard about/seen/read about aikido being used to any kind of effect beyond a randori demonstration and even then it looks alot like coreography. I'm sure it's good for weapon disarms but I just don't see how something so utterly passive can be used in a situation where you don't have the luxury of having exact movements true to trained form being attempted on you for the purpose of demonstration.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Yip Man's only connection to JKD is through Bruce, who studied wing chun with Yip Man, as I'm assuming you know. Bruce actually initially created Jun Fan Gung Fu before JKD. I think that JKD is interesting, but it's less a style, than it is a collection of principles and concepts. Because of this, it can vary quite a bit from one teacher to the next.
    I know Yip wasn't directly involved in Jeet Kun Do, but he seemed to be a pioneer in the concept. I don't think you can call what Yip was doing purely wing chun, at least from the legend that had surrounded him. It seems like he took what he learned and did a sort of fusion to incorporate more than what he had been trained with to an extent. I have to believe alot of Bruce's concepts were derivative of Yip's education.

    That whole thing about emotional content, form without form, etc etc etc. Not to mention the fusion between striking and grappling along with being constantly aware of what opportunities are available to you and what openings have been left. Bruce was a brilliant man, but he isn't the first to come up with some of those core beliefs for a combat system.


    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    The thing about a martial art is that if it's something you're going to actually train in, then you have to adopt the community that comes along with it. Plenty of MTers are perfectly cool people. In fact, I'm sure most are. But a lot of them are dickheads and their attitude of "if you're not Muay Thai, you're not shit" is well known.
    I think this attitude may be a bit of backlash for how muay thai has been portrayed by the media in the past. Broken glass dipped wraps, being un-hurtable beastly motherfuckers, ones who practice by shin kicking load bearing beams and shit, being called Sagat since 1987. I'm sure all of that has jaded a few guys, but it's probably a pride thing mixed with the kind of person who chooses to act a fool in the first place, you know? Kind of like how Junie Browning and War Machine give MMA fighters a bad name almost every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    That's true. Though of course each individual practitioner is free to place their own preferred emphasis on techniques in training, and a lot of traditional schools are also starting to train elbows, knees and leg kicks a lot more than they used to. It's the MMA age, after all.
    I have to believe not as many martial art instructors give a rats ass about MMA. I know there was plenty of distaste for the sport when it initially went big for alot of TMA practitioners because it was seen as an impure contest. Especially since most traditional arts weren't designed to deal with takedowns and the clinch as it's used in MMA.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I actually wrote an article on muay Thai for UMMA not too long ago and got to talk to Mark Dellagrotte. It was an interesting experience. For the article I had to do a bit of research on the history of muay Thai and, if I am remembering correctly, muay Thai actually came from a variety of different Southeast Asian styles that were collectively known as muay boran. My understanding was that muay boran was basically the same as saying "kung fu" . . . it was just an umbrella term. Over time these styles came together and eventually formed the basis for the modern system of muay Thai.
    Muay Boran is the direct predecessor of Muay Thai, and while it is a bit of an umbrella term it has a distinct trademark difference in that headbutts were permitted in muay boran, which was called the ninth weapon or nawa awut. Unfortunately the origins are unknown because the Burmese destroyed all the records of the ancient kingdom in which muay boran came about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I had to quit watching the Kung Fu Monk episode because the shit was just too much. There was way too much emphasis on cardio than actual techniques which seemed to not quite do justice to the art itself.
    I remember the kyokushin, boxing, savate and wing chun episodes being particularly cool. You might want to start with those.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    Yeah but there are people who are literally afraid to end up having killed someone. They don't want to have to end up taking someone's life even in a situation where their own might be at risk. I have to think at least some of those people are drawn to martial arts for the sake that it's, on the whole, much less lethal than a firearm but may still see you through being attacked by someone.
    I certainly don't want to kill anyone, both because I don't want to have it on my conscience and because of the legal ramifications. And I also encourage people to learn hand-to-hand self-defense. But there are some people, especially small women, who just don't have the size or strength to deal with a big man who intends to do them harm, regardless of training. Sometimes the difference between getting raped or not is a gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I like the principles of savate in that it's something you could have done under dim torchlight in the streets of London circa 1890 in a fucking dress suit and top hat. It was created for the every-man to perhaps persuade a thief to target someone else next time, or to make it home safely from work/the pub. But the real intrigue of savate, at least for Me, is what it helped lay the ground for in european kickboxing along with traditional asian martial arts. It just goes to show that you didn't have to be asian to develop a style of fighting that made ample use of kicks.
    Yeah, savate is interesting for a number of reasons, and like you, I think the idea of a kick-based european martial art is pretty fascinating. In fact, it may be the only one that I know of.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I can see the appeal of this kind of thing, but I don't think it'd ever be for Me.
    Yeah, well I don't think I'd want to fuck with it right now, but when I'm like 60 and just chilling and have gotten my fill of hard-charging ass-kicking martial arts, I could see it interesting me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    Does Aikido even work outside of a dojo setting? I don't think I've ever heard about/seen/read about aikido being used to any kind of effect beyond a randori demonstration and even then it looks alot like coreography. I'm sure it's good for weapon disarms but I just don't see how something so utterly passive can be used in a situation where you don't have the luxury of having exact movements true to trained form being attempted on you for the purpose of demonstration.
    I really don't know. And the "randori" demonstrations ARE choreographed . . . there is no free sparring in aikido, according to something I recently watched. Personally, I don't really care about aikido, and I'm sure I'll never learn it, nor would I suggest it to anyone else for self-defense.

    A lot of the aikido people that I've run across talk more about its spiritual/meditative qualities than its self-defense value, so I don't even know how confident most aikidokas are in their SD skills.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I know Yip wasn't directly involved in Jeet Kun Do, but he seemed to be a pioneer in the concept. I don't think you can call what Yip was doing purely wing chun, at least from the legend that had surrounded him. It seems like he took what he learned and did a sort of fusion to incorporate more than what he had been trained with to an extent. I have to believe alot of Bruce's concepts were derivative of Yip's education.

    That whole thing about emotional content, form without form, etc etc etc. Not to mention the fusion between striking and grappling along with being constantly aware of what opportunities are available to you and what openings have been left. Bruce was a brilliant man, but he isn't the first to come up with some of those core beliefs for a combat system.
    Could be. I've never heard much about Yip Man's influence beyond wing chun, but then again I haven't done a lot of research on it either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I think this attitude may be a bit of backlash for how muay thai has been portrayed by the media in the past. Broken glass dipped wraps, being un-hurtable beastly motherfuckers, ones who practice by shin kicking load bearing beams and shit, being called Sagat since 1987. I'm sure all of that has jaded a few guys, but it's probably a pride thing mixed with the kind of person who chooses to act a fool in the first place, you know? Kind of like how Junie Browning and War Machine give MMA fighters a bad name almost every day.
    I think that's part of it. I also think it has plenty to do with the fact that the sport component of MT is full-contact and is virtually synonomous with the style itself, and that virtually all legitimate striking weapons are allowed in competition. And of course there's something to that. MT is battle-tested and people respect that. This is also the reason that Kyokushin was pretty much the only karate style that got any respect in the MMA world before Machida came along.

    The other problem is McDojoism in traditional martial arts. The way many traditional styles have been taught and trained over the past few decades hasn't done the traditional world any favors. Thankfully things are starting to come full circle a bit and people are beginning to realize that the problem isn't TKD or Karate or whatever, but the way they're trained. Train them like practical, serious fighting styles, and they will be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I have to believe not as many martial art instructors give a rats ass about MMA.
    A lot don't. Some are still bitter and actively hate MMA. But a lot are fans and have been open to the holes and gaps that MMA has exposed in a lot of traditional training. I've talked to a lot of instructors on MartialTalk and Martial Arts Planet who have added in leg kicks and grappling and the like because of MMA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    Muay Boran is the direct predecessor of Muay Thai, and while it is a bit of an umbrella term it has a distinct trademark difference in that headbutts were permitted in muay boran, which was called the ninth weapon or nawa awut. Unfortunately the origins are unknown because the Burmese destroyed all the records of the ancient kingdom in which muay boran came about.
    I remember hearing that, about headbutts.

    BTW, I think you've been holding back on us a bit. You clearly know more than you've lead us to believe. Is all your knowledge academic or have you actually trained in anything?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke View Post

    Awesome contribution. Truly groundbreaking stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I remember the kyokushin, boxing, savate and wing chun episodes being particularly cool. You might want to start with those.
    I'll check those out soon, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I certainly don't want to kill anyone, both because I don't want to have it on my conscience and because of the legal ramifications. And I also encourage people to learn hand-to-hand self-defense. But there are some people, especially small women, who just don't have the size or strength to deal with a big man who intends to do them harm, regardless of training. Sometimes the difference between getting raped or not is a gun.
    I was talking more about men than women. Obviously a petite woman has next to no chance without some serious knowledge and confidence in that knowledge against a large male assailant. But a man, even a small man has different reasons and options in a fight or flight situation. He might fight to survive, or fight because of pride, or run because he's trying to survive. For a woman it's likely she'll be outrun and overpowered, or just overpowered without some kind of equalizer. On average a woman is going to be smaller than a man and won't have the muscle content in the places it counts to fend off even a poorly educated attack/attempt to overpower her. A man has the added muscle to help bridge that gap, and the threat of rape usually(at least outside of prison) a non factor in things.

    The idea of non-lethal resistance has been the goal of plenty of people for a long time. Going back to the core principle of Aikido itself, the general procedure of law enforcement, etc etc etc. Taking a life is usually the last thing on any morally inclined sane person's mind. Most people who fit the description for sane and morally inclined probably wouldn't want to try and kill someone who was potentially trying to kill them first, thats just how it is. If someone came up to you with a knife and said "give me your wallet before I cut you!" you'd probably give them your wallet because the issue isn't just defending yourself at that point, it's potentially having to kill that guy in order to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Yeah, savate is interesting for a number of reasons, and like you, I think the idea of a kick-based european martial art is pretty fascinating. In fact, it may be the only one that I know of.
    I think that personally savate's roots in kicking follow the psychological effect that being punched in the face has for most people. Especially someone who wasn't looking for a fight in the first place. If your just walking home you don't want to be in a fight, and you certainly don't want to be punched in the face by someone for whatever reason. The easiest way to avoid that without giving up your ground is to create and hold distance. The best way to do that is to use something that has effect from beyond the average length of the human arm, which is the leg.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I really don't know. And the "randori" demonstrations ARE choreographed . . . there is no free sparring in aikido, according to something I recently watched. Personally, I don't really care about aikido, and I'm sure I'll never learn it, nor would I suggest it to anyone else for self-defense.

    A lot of the aikido people that I've run across talk more about its spiritual/meditative qualities than its self-defense value, so I don't even know how confident most aikidokas are in their SD skills.
    Thats what I meant. The randori's are choreographed and impressive in that aspect but will those same techniques translate to situations where the movements being thrown at you aren't exactly what you've been taught about? Will they be able to snag the wrist and flip an opponent who's REALLY charging them with a knife? It just doesn't seem like a practical art for anything other than fitness and achieving perfect technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Could be. I've never heard much about Yip Man's influence beyond wing chun, but then again I haven't done a lot of research on it either.
    I haven't done a whole lot of research about it. But I find it hard to believe that, given Yip's story and the legacy he's left in his students who went on to be great practitioners of martial arts in general, he was practicing 100% by the book wing chun as opposed to a self made fusion style. His success and fame couldn't have arisen just simply by achieving the status of "master" in the traditional wing chun.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I think that's part of it. I also think it has plenty to do with the fact that the sport component of MT is full-contact and is virtually synonomous with the style itself, and that virtually all legitimate striking weapons are allowed in competition. And of course there's something to that. MT is battle-tested and people respect that. This is also the reason that Kyokushin was pretty much the only karate style that got any respect in the MMA world before Machida came along.

    The other problem is McDojoism in traditional martial arts. The way many traditional styles have been taught and trained over the past few decades hasn't done the traditional world any favors. Thankfully things are starting to come full circle a bit and people are beginning to realize that the problem isn't TKD or Karate or whatever, but the way they're trained. Train them like practical, serious fighting styles, and they will be.
    That could also be part of it. Maybe the fact that the proverbial outlandish likes-to-fight-guy is drawn to a style where full contact is regular practice has something to do with it. Maybe the culture difference between indo-chinese culture and the main portion of asia is something to look at as well. It could be a big mixture built on many factors or it could just be localized to a specific type of person.

    It's true that the moment you start treating something like a practical self defense system it can be. Even Aikido could probably be adapted given the core principles of redirecting force much like Judo. But that kind of thing takes change on a grand scale, and it may not be something purists ever adopt.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    BTW, I think you've been holding back on us a bit. You clearly know more than you've lead us to believe. Is all your knowledge academic or have you actually trained in anything?
    I've dabbled here and there. Never trained seriously but I'm mostly a student of biomechanics. I'm fascinated by how the human body moves and can move, the different powers at work in something like an armbar or a low kick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    Thats what I meant. The randori's are choreographed and impressive in that aspect but will those same techniques translate to situations where the movements being thrown at you aren't exactly what you've been taught about? Will they be able to snag the wrist and flip an opponent who's REALLY charging them with a knife? It just doesn't seem like a practical art for anything other than fitness and achieving perfect technique.
    Yeah, I dunno. I'm sure there's SOME of it that can be used in a self-defense situation, and a lot a lot of the perp-control tactics used by law enforcement are aikido-esque in nature. But yeah, if someone wanted a self-defense grappling art I wouldn't point them toward aikido.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I haven't done a whole lot of research about it. But I find it hard to believe that, given Yip's story and the legacy he's left in his students who went on to be great practitioners of martial arts in general, he was practicing 100% by the book wing chun as opposed to a self made fusion style. His success and fame couldn't have arisen just simply by achieving the status of "master" in the traditional wing chun.
    I would like to know how well-known he would be if there had never been a Bruce Lee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    It's true that the moment you start treating something like a practical self defense system it can be. Even Aikido could probably be adapted given the core principles of redirecting force much like Judo. But that kind of thing takes change on a grand scale, and it may not be something purists ever adopt.
    I think that some arts pretty far enough out there to where they would require a good bit of modification, or at the very least, only a small part of the entire system would be truly applicable to self-defense. Aikido is certainly one of those styles. A lot of kung fu styles would be as well.

    There are a lot of traditional styles that I think are pretty good to go as-is, though. But it's important to separate the art from the sport. If you train karate just for the sport aspect, then you might have some issues with adapting your habits and technique to a self-defense situation. On the other hand, if you ignore the sport and only train it for self-defense, then there will probably be little modification required. For me, personally, I'd like to take a middle ground and do some of both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I've dabbled here and there. Never trained seriously but I'm mostly a student of biomechanics. I'm fascinated by how the human body moves and can move, the different powers at work in something like an armbar or a low kick.
    That's pretty interesting. Do you get into those Fight Science Discovery Channel shows and shit like that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    I think that personally savate's roots in kicking follow the psychological effect that being punched in the face has for most people. Especially someone who wasn't looking for a fight in the first place. If your just walking home you don't want to be in a fight, and you certainly don't want to be punched in the face by someone for whatever reason. The easiest way to avoid that without giving up your ground is to create and hold distance. The best way to do that is to use something that has effect from beyond the average length of the human arm, which is the leg.
    I think two things are particularly interesting here:

    1. For a long time in many parts of the world, including America, a fist fight was considered the manly way to go about things. My step-dad even told me once that when he was growing up there was no kicking in fighting. Kicking was for cowards and pussies. Real men fight with their fists. It seems that this was not the mind-set of the French.

    2. Considering that Savate was not created strictly as a ring sport with rules, I think it's interesting that there was little to no concern about kicking in a street fight in the sense that kicks take your base away and being wrestled to the ground is a much greater possibility with only one leg supporting all your weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Yeah, I dunno. I'm sure there's SOME of it that can be used in a self-defense situation, and a lot a lot of the perp-control tactics used by law enforcement are aikido-esque in nature. But yeah, if someone wanted a self-defense grappling art I wouldn't point them toward aikido.
    I know some of the basic police techniques are aikido based in that they are joint locks designed for control rather than destruction of the joint at first. But you won't see cops making criminals swirl around in the air like a jumprope anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I would like to know how well-known he would be if there had never been a Bruce Lee.
    Probably not so well known in the western world, but he was absolutely famous in his city and is still well revered across china through his students and whatnot.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I think that some arts pretty far enough out there to where they would require a good bit of modification, or at the very least, only a small part of the entire system would be truly applicable to self-defense. Aikido is certainly one of those styles. A lot of kung fu styles would be as well.

    There are a lot of traditional styles that I think are pretty good to go as-is, though. But it's important to separate the art from the sport. If you train karate just for the sport aspect, then you might have some issues with adapting your habits and technique to a self-defense situation. On the other hand, if you ignore the sport and only train it for self-defense, then there will probably be little modification required. For me, personally, I'd like to take a middle ground and do some of both.
    This is essentially what I was getting at. There are a few techniques that would need to added/removed from the basic repertoire to be considered "spontaneous-proof" because let's face it. You throw a traditionally trained tang soo do practitioner in some random setting where without warning he's rushed on and attacked by someone and the chances are more or less 50/50 that he's going to come out on top. That may not be a very good concept but it's off the top of My head and I think it would apply beyond a person by person basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    That's pretty interesting. Do you get into those Fight Science Discovery Channel shows and shit like that?
    Constantly. I love that shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I think two things are particularly interesting here:

    1. For a long time in many parts of the world, including America, a fist fight was considered the manly way to go about things. My step-dad even told me once that when he was growing up there was no kicking in fighting. Kicking was for cowards and pussies. Real men fight with their fists. It seems that this was not the mind-set of the French.
    I don't necessarily buy into that line of thinking by and large. While that's something that was "said" as soon as asian martial arts came to the western world it was like an explosion. Bruce Lee wasn't a total celebrity by accident. As soon as kung fu and other martial arts made their way to Europe/America everyone wanted to learn to look like a ninja while fighting.

    Also, I think another thing that may have influenced this is kicks themselves. Not everyone has one punch knockout power in their hands. That much is just a fact in the world. Even professional boxers and fighters seemingly lack that ability to place the shot that puts the other guy to sleep. Anyone, literally anyone over the age of ten years old who isn't a midget has the leg strength to knock someone out/end a conflict with a well placed kick.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    2. Considering that Savate was not created strictly as a ring sport with rules, I think it's interesting that there was little to no concern about kicking in a street fight in the sense that kicks take your base away and being wrestled to the ground is a much greater possibility with only one leg supporting all your weight.
    Well for john everyman who may not be versed in catch wrestling it wouldn't make a difference is he was throwing punches or kicks against one. His best chance at getting out of there before he's robbed and possibly bleeding is to kick while keeping his hands up to protect his face. Also, distance becomes important in a scuffle involving more than just two people, especially when the odds aren't even. Being swamed on is pretty much a loss for the most part, being able to keep at least one or all of your attackers at a distance to be able to have a free range of motion is imperative for coming out of that kind of situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    Probably not so well known in the western world, but he was absolutely famous in his city and is still well revered across china through his students and whatnot.
    Have you seen the Ip Man movies with Donnie Yen? I've seen the first. Good shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ludo View Post
    This is essentially what I was getting at. There are a few techniques that would need to added/removed from the basic repertoire to be considered "spontaneous-proof" because let's face it. You throw a traditionally trained tang soo do practitioner in some random setting where without warning he's rushed on and attacked by someone and the chances are more or less 50/50 that he's going to come out on top. That may not be a very good concept but it's off the top of My head and I think it would apply beyond a person by person basis.
    I think the same is true for a muay Thai guy, though. An MT guy is trained to fight under a very specific set of circumstances--ring, gloves, only one opponent, clearly defined start and end points for rounds, etc.--and MT also also requires modification with the stance to defend takedowns. The other thing about MT that's worth pointing out is that because it's pretty much exclusively a sport, there is no discussion on striking vital targets or anything else that's self-defense related. There's just no mentality for that kind of thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    Have you seen the Ip Man movies with Donnie Yen? I've seen the first. Good shit.

    I saw the first one. I wasn't aware there were more though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPX View Post
    I think the same is true for a muay Thai guy, though. An MT guy is trained to fight under a very specific set of circumstances--ring, gloves, only one opponent, clearly defined start and end points for rounds, etc.--and MT also also requires modification with the stance to defend takedowns. The other thing about MT that's worth pointing out is that because it's pretty much exclusively a sport, there is no discussion on striking vital targets or anything else that's self-defense related. There's just no mentality for that kind of thing.
    Well speaking strictly for self defense you may not have to modify the stance at all. It's not especially likely your going to be attacked by a trained individual, since studies show that structured activities like that tend to keep youths out of crime for the most part. As far as vital targets that's only a minor tweak to things, it's still going to be the same basic movements and core motions that are just aimed elsewhere. A jab is still a jab only now it goes to the throat and not the nose, a knee to the gut can be a knee to the groin, etc etc etc.
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