View Full Version : Strikeforce Los Angeles June 16th Card
Looks like Strikforce is having a June card
poopoo333
04-06-2010, 10:40 AM
Great, another -800 line.
The Cung Le-Scott Smith rematch is a done deal for this card now
The Cung Le-Scott Smith rematch is a done deal for this card now
The line on that one's gonna be interesting. . .
Mr. IWS
04-28-2010, 01:59 PM
Ill be on Cung this time.
The Cung Le-Scott Smith rematch is a done deal for this card now
The line on that one's gonna be interesting. . .
what do you mean?
what do you mean?
I mean Cung got to over -500 on some books last time around. Considering the fact that Smith ended up knocking him the fuck out then I imagine the odds will be a little closer.
what do you mean?
I mean Cung got to over -500 on some books last time around. Considering the fact that Smith ended up knocking him the fuck out then I imagine the odds will be a little closer.
Considering Le dominated 99% of the fight I expect the line to still be at least -200 or more
Mr. IWS
04-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Considering Le dominated 99% of the fight I expect the line to still be at least -200 or more
If I can get between -200 and -300, I would be very happy. I think he will be around -400 though.
He was beating the fuckin brakes off Smith until he got tired/sloppy/caught.
Considering Le dominated 99% of the fight I expect the line to still be at least -200 or more
Well there's a big difference between -200 and -500.
MMA_scientist
04-28-2010, 02:43 PM
Werdum FTW.
Believe it.
Considering Le dominated 99% of the fight I expect the line to still be at least -200 or more
Well there's a big difference between -200 and -500.
Well yeah duh . Would you expect someone that was a -500 favorite that lost to be -500 again?
Werdum FTW.
Believe it.
You're nuts ::haptime::
Considering Le dominated 99% of the fight I expect the line to still be at least -200 or more
If I can get between -200 and -300, I would be very happy. I think he will be around -400 though.
He was beating the fuckin brakes off Smith until he got tired/sloppy/caught.
I agree
Cung got cocky in round 3 and gassed trying to do stupid things when he was already tired .Thats why he lost imo
i just cant see the line being that high(-400) but I've been wrong plenty of times before
Werdum FTW.
Believe it.
I think this play warrants half your bankroll.
Well yeah duh . Would you expect someone that was a -500 favorite that lost to be -500 again?
I don't. That's exactly my point.
I imagine it will open around -350 or -300, but I could be wrong and am curious to see what it's gonna be.
Werdum FTW.
Believe it.
I think this play warrants half your bankroll.
I raise
I say bet your whole bankroll on Werdum
All in ::thumbup::
I agree
Cung got cocky in round 3 and gassed trying to do stupid things when he was already tired .Thats why he lost imo
i just cant see the line being that high(-400) but I've been wrong plenty of times before
I would like to point out one of the things that caused to be on Smith the first go around: Cung hasn't really fought much of anyone in terms of MMA. Smith was probably his most legit opponent, unless you count a broken down Frank Shamrock.
So he's largely untested in the sport and his wins have come over--I hate to use this term--cans.
Not only that, but we now see he has cardio issues.
MMA_scientist
04-28-2010, 02:54 PM
Werdum FTW.
Believe it.
I think this play warrants half your bankroll.
I am definately going to be on Werdum (assuming he is +400 like he will be).
I don't believe in super-fighters. Fedor has been in trouble in a lot of his fights. He is going to lose soon.
I like Fedor... but its all over come June.
I agree
Cung got cocky in round 3 and gassed trying to do stupid things when he was already tired .Thats why he lost imo
i just cant see the line being that high(-400) but I've been wrong plenty of times before
I would like to point out one of the things that caused to be on Smith the first go around: Cung hasn't really fought much of anyone in terms of MMA. Smith was probably his most legit opponent, unless you count a broken down Frank Shamrock.
So he's largely untested in the sport and his wins have come over--I have to use this term--cans.
Not only that, but we now see he has cardio issues.
I wouldnt say cardio issues.I'm sure he could go 5 rounds if he didnt use so many kicks.It takes alot more out of you to throw those massive kicks than it does to punch someone.
I am definately going to be on Werdum (assuming he is +400 like he will be).
I don't believe in super-fighters. Fedor has been in trouble in a lot of his fights. He is going to lose soon.
I like Fedor... but its all over come June.
Fedor may lose soon, but it's not going to be to Febricio Werdum.
This isn't much more than a tune up fight for Fedor, in my opinion. Arlovski was a much more dangerous opponent. THAT'S a fight that Fedor could lose and he was in fact losing up until the KO.
I like Fedor... but its all over come June.
Not unless he's fighting JDS,Lesnar,Carwin or Cain and someone didnt tell me.
Werdum isnt going to be the one to take out Fedor .It will take a top A rated fighter and I dont consider Werdum one
I wouldnt say cardio issues.I'm sure he could go 5 rounds if he didnt use so many kicks.It takes alot more out of you to throw those massive kicks than it does to punch someone.
Aren't his kicks pretty much his thing, though?
Mr. IWS
04-28-2010, 03:00 PM
Fedor has been in trouble in a lot of his fights. He is going to lose soon.
Im coming around on this as well. I dont think Werdum will beat him, but I wouldnt be shocked if he did. When the matchup was first rumored, I was all over Fedor, but I think the end of his run is coming real soon.
All this shady, behind the scenes shit with Finklehorn, Finklestien, whatever. I swear, they are trying to bleed more money out of Coker/Showtime before the end comes, because if the guy who changes tires at Sams club can do work the way he did, whats Overeem and Werdum gonna do. This whole contract renegotiation is some BS IMO. Because when Fedor loses, M1 is out of buisness the next day.
I think Ubereem might be the guy. I wanna see how he looks in the states with some testing. If he runs through Bert Rogers, I will be real interested in a Overeem/Fedor line.
If he looks good, Im on Reem over Fedor.
I wouldnt say cardio issues.I'm sure he could go 5 rounds if he didnt use so many kicks.It takes alot more out of you to throw those massive kicks than it does to punch someone.
Aren't his kicks pretty much his thing, though?
Yeah its his thing .I was just saying kicks take more juice than punches.Because he does mostly kicks he'll never be able to go 5 rounds in MMA
I feel Fedor may be coming to the end of his run soon as well. But what the hell is Werdum going to do to him?
I feel Fedor may be coming to the end of his run soon as well. But what the hell is Werdum going to do to him?
Not shit.
He's definitely not going to knock Fedor out and he won't get the chance to submit him.
Werdum goes to sleep just like he did against JDS.
[quote="MMA_scientist":z2ebabox]Fedor has been in trouble in a lot of his fights. He is going to lose soon.
Im coming around on this as well. I dont think Werdum will beat him, but I wouldnt be shocked if he did. When the matchup was first rumored, I was all over Fedor, but I think the end of his run is coming real soon.
All this shady, behind the scenes shit with Finklehorn, Finklestien, whatever. I swear, they are trying to bleed more money out of Coker/Showtime before the end comes, because if the guy who changes tires at Sams club can do work the way he did, whats Overeem and Werdum gonna do. This whole contract renegotiation is some BS IMO. Because when Fedor loses, M1 is out of buisness the next day.
I think Ubereem might be the guy. I wanna see how he looks in the states with some testing. If he runs through Bert Rogers, I will be real interested in a Overeem/Fedor line.
If he looks good, Im on Reem over Fedor.[/quote:z2ebabox]
The thing with Overeem is I'm pretty sure he's a frontrunner. If you hit him really hard in the face he starts swerving all over the road pretty much immediately, and he'll crumple shortly after. I think Fedor blasts him out of the park. Overeem should kick Rogers' ass but don't be surprised if Bart lands one on his chin and he explodes.
I feel Fedor may be coming to the end of his run soon as well. But what the hell is Werdum going to do to him?
Not shit.
He's definitely not going to knock Fedor out and he won't get the chance to submit him.
Werdum goes to sleep just like he did against JDS.
Pretty much. The best Werdum can hope for is to take him down and positionally dominate him. I just don't see it though. Even if he gets him down, Fedor is far too explosive and adept at exploiting openings. He's going to hurt Werdum pretty badly.
KJ Noons and Robie Lawler confirmed on this card also
Starting to wonder if Fedor's even on this card? I mean wasnt even mentioned
Robbie Lawler vs. Renato "Babalu" Sobral announced for this card
Svino
04-29-2010, 08:48 PM
I think Fedor is going to beat Werdum and I think he's not going to get the credit he deserves for it. Werdum is among the HW elite IMO, but he's been counted out ever since he ate one punch from JDS. He represents a legit threat to Fedor. I really like this fight from a fan's perspective - Fedor's last three fights have been striking victories over supposedly better strikers. Time to test him with a good ground guy. Unfortunately, I have no confidence that the match will actually happen.
I think Fedor is going to beat Werdum and I think he's not going to get the credit he deserves for it. Werdum is among the HW elite IMO, but he's been counted out ever since he ate one punch from JDS.
I haven't seen Werdum fight just a whole hell of a lot, but I do know that he looked like shit against Arlovski, got KOd in double time against JDS, and looked like shit against Bigfoot.
He looked pretty good against Vera, but then you have the whole early stoppage issue to deal with, as well as the fact that a lot of people don't really consider Vera an elite fighter (Luke, where are you?).
Vera's not even close to a elite fighter
but I do know that he looked like shit against Arlovski, got KOd in double time against JDS, and looked like shit against Bigfoot.
Pretty much my thoughts also ::handshake::
Anyone got line guesses on any of these fights?
I just figured out Fedor isnt going to be on this card.M1 and strikeforce are still "in talks"
I just figured out Fedor isnt going to be on this card.M1 and strikeforce are still "in talks"
What the fuck is this all about?
I just figured out Fedor isnt going to be on this card.M1 and strikeforce are still "in talks"
What the fuck is this all about?
no idea but I just saw the event poster and he's not on it either.I guess Fedor-Werdum will be "later"
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t233/luke1899/lalive.jpg
- Robbie Lawler vs.Renato babalu Sobral
- Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos vs. TBA
- Bobby Lashley vs. TBA
- K.J. Noons vs. TBA
But here's a quote from Fedor April 28th saying he'll be fighting the end of June so who knows?
“It could have been a huge honor for me to fight Yoshida in his retirement fight. I know that he wanted to fight me, but I could not accept his challenge because of my hand injury [...] We made a decision that my next fight will be against Fabricio Werdum, sometime in the end of June.”
I guess you cant make line guesses with no matches being certain or not lol
no idea but I just saw the event poster and he's not on it either.I guess Fedor-Werdum will be "later"
I want my money now. . .
But here's a quote from Fedor April 28th saying he'll be fighting the end of June so who knows?
“It could have been a huge honor for me to fight Yoshida in his retirement fight. I know that he wanted to fight me, but I could not accept his challenge because of my hand injury [...] We made a decision that my next fight will be against Fabricio Werdum, sometime in the end of June.”
apparently there is also a Strikeforce event June 26th in San Jose now.So maybe thats when Fedor-Werdum is going to fight
poopoo333
04-30-2010, 12:14 AM
Bobby Lashley vs Greg Nagy? :)
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 08:33 AM
Robbie Lawler vs. Renato "Babalu" Sobral announced for this card
Nice. I hope Babalu can bounce back.
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 10:57 AM
Starting to wonder if Fedor's even on this card? I mean wasnt even mentioned
Scott Coker sets mid-May deadline for Fedor:
"There’s still dialogue between us and Fedor’s people," Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker said. "We’re hopeful we can get the take done as soon a possible. It’s an ongoing process to get him back. It’s been too long already."
Coker has set a mid-May deadline for putting the match together, as there is a target date of June 26 in San Jose set for the fight and the company wants a full six weeks of promotion.
HT: sports.yahoo.com, photo via sports.sho.com
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 11:22 AM
Re Werdum/Fedor:
How can you say he is not elite? Werdum is top 10 and has been dor several years. He lost to AA, but it was competive and he stood with AA for 3 full rounds and never really took a hard shot. In fact, I think Werdum gave more than he got in that fight, even though he was outpointed.
I think Werdum can stand with Fedor and survive. Werdum is also the very best grappler Fedor has ever fought... He already lost once to a positional grappler (Arona beat him, but the judges screwed him).
Obviously Fedor is a big favorite, but Werdum is a legit threat.
I don't really think Werdum will beat him, but I do think Fedor's skillset is massively overrated. He was getting his ass kicked by AA and Rogers. He lost to Arona. Randleman planted him on his head. Mark Hunt put him in side control for god sakes.
Don't get me wrong, I know there is more to fighting than technical perfection. I am a Fedor fan, and I would love to see him keep winning... but he definately has holes in his game. I just think a lot of it is heart, and frankly a lot of of it is luck. I personally think MMA is more poker than chess. Chess, the more skilled player is going to win pretty much every time. Poker, skill plays a big part, but so does luck. If GSP got put in those same situations, people would be making a huge deal out of it.
How can you say he is not elite? Werdum is top 10 and has been dor several years. He lost to AA, but it was competive and he stood with AA for 3 full rounds and never really took a hard shot. In fact, I think Werdum gave more than he got in that fight, even though he was outpointed.
No actual fighting took place during that encounter.
I think Werdum can stand with Fedor and survive.
And I think I can stand with BJ and survive.
That is, Werdum's sub-par striking doesn't stand a chance.
I don't really think Werdum will beat him, but I do think Fedor's skillset is massively overrated.
The problem with this line of thinking is that if he's overrated--and luck has played such a vital role in his success--how the hell has it happened 32 times?
Yes, Fedor has been put in some bad positions and I can agree that he was losing against AA. I still want to see what would've happened if Arlovski hadn't charged in with that knee. But the odds are that if Fedor hadn't caught him right at that moment then he would've done it somewhere within the next 4 1/2 rounds. Because that's just what he does.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 11:48 AM
I am creating a new symbol, like a bat symbol, used to call Svino into situations and math to set us straight:
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/41700/41735/fc_pi_41735_lg.gif
Lets say that 20% of a fight can be attriubted to luck. So under normal circumstances Fedor's skill alone would make him 26-6. I do not dispute that Fedor is very skilled, just that his skill is much greater than any other top fighter.
Since there are thousands of fighters, I think the odds that one guy would get 10 lucky wins without a loss is not really that great. So lets just limit it to the top 50 fighters.
Svino, is there any way to quantify this, using my made up numbers?
If there are 50 fighters, and 20% of the time they will win or lose due to "luck", what are the chances that one of those guys would be unbeaten after 32 fights?
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 11:51 AM
LOL
If GSP got put in those same situations, people would be making a huge deal out of it.
GSP has been in bad situations before (Serra and Hughes) and lost both times.Thats the difference between Fedor and GSP ,when Fedor is in trouble he gets out of it and wins.
Almost doesnt count.I dont think Fedor is luckly I think its 100% skill.
Whens most fighters get hurt they panic and thats why they lose .Fedor doesnt panic when he's in a bad situation
The guy has beat Coleman,Randleman,Cro Cop,NOG ,Herring,and Sobral all in their primes it takes more than luck imo to do that
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 11:59 AM
GSP has been in bad situations before (Serra and Hughes) and lost both times.Thats the difference between Fedor and GSP ,when Fedor is in trouble he gets out of it and wins.
Oh noes, here comes zY!
GSP did get his tap on in that Serra fight.
GSP did get his tap on in that Serra fight.
That's what happens when you fight Matt Serra.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Almost doesnt count.I dont think Fedor is luckly I think its 100% skill.
I am not knocking Fedor. He is obviously one of the most skilled fighters out there. But I don't believe in 100% skill. There is a definate luck factor in MMA, IMO. There are just too many variable to control. If it was 100% skill, there would be a lot more undefeated fighters.
For example the Serra/GSP fight, if Serra threw that punch 100 times, I don't think he would be able to drop GSP again. It just hit him the magic sleepy spot on the back of his head. Or when Coleman beat Shogun, there is no way for Coleman to know that he is going to break his arm while trying to catch himself. Florian/Thomas. Diaz/Gamburyan. Penn/Hughes II. Random crap happens in mma fights. Personally, I put Fedor/AA in that category. He was getting pummelled, he threw a haymaker with his head down, and Arlovski just happened to be jumping into him at the time.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 12:19 PM
...
[quote=MMA_scientist]
How can you say he is not elite? Werdum is top 10 and has been dor several years. He lost to AA, but it was competive and he stood with AA for 3 full rounds and never really took a hard shot. In fact, I think Werdum gave more than he got in that fight, even though he was outpointed.
No actual fighting took place during that encounter.
I think Werdum can stand with Fedor and survive.
And I think I can stand with BJ and survive.
That is, Werdum's sub-par striking doesn't stand a chance.
I don't really think Werdum will beat him, but I do think Fedor's skillset is massively overrated.
The problem with this line of thinking is that if he's overrated--and luck has played such a vital role in his success--how the hell has it happened 32 times?
Yes, Fedor has been put in some bad positions and I can agree that he was losing against AA. I still want to see what would've happened if Arlovski hadn't charged in with that knee. But the odds are that if Fedor hadn't caught him right at that moment then he would've done it somewhere within the next 4 1/2 rounds. Because that's just what he does.[/quote:3rq8iyw4]
Arlovski/Fedor was a 3 round fight.
Arlovski/Fedor was a 3 round fight.
actually it was a 3 minute fight
Arlovski/Fedor was a 3 round fight.
Wasn't it for the WAMMA belt?
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 01:04 PM
actually it was a 3 minute fight
::lmao::
I think it's hilarious how people act like Werdum isn't worthy of fighting Fedor.
If he(the actual #1 contender) had fought Randy instead of Le$nar, he would've beaten him, and then Mir also to unify the title, and people would be talking about Fedor ducking Werdum.
He was getting his ass kicked by AA and Rogers. He lost to Arona.
He absolutely was not 'getting his ass kicked' by AA and Rogers. I can count on two hands how many punches they landed on Fedor, combined.
He didn't lose to Arona either. If you want to go back and apply the unified rules to the fight with some awesome revisionist history, then sure, have a blast saying he lost. He didn't though.
That fight was also a decade ago.
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 02:06 PM
I never saw the Arona fight, so I cant say either way on that.
I wouldnt say he was getting his ass kicked by AA, I think "out pointed" maybe a better term.
Against Rogers, he was getting his shit lit up in that first round.
I never saw the Arona fight, so I cant say either way on that.
I wouldnt say he was getting his ass kicked by AA, I think "out pointed" maybe a better term.
Against Rogers, he was getting his shit lit up in that first round.
Fedor was an inch off of 90% of Arlovski's punches that looked like they landed. there are HD gifs showing every exchange in slow mo floating around that show Arlovski was hitting lots of air.
Rogers landed a jab and 2 punches on the ground in the whole round. Fedor's left hook was the biggest punch of the first round.
Thewiseman
04-30-2010, 02:13 PM
[quote=SPX][quote=MMA_scientist]
How can you say he is not elite? Werdum is top 10 and has been dor several years. He lost to AA, but it was competive and he stood with AA for 3 full rounds and never really took a hard shot. In fact, I think Werdum gave more than he got in that fight, even though he was outpointed.
No actual fighting took place during that encounter.
I think Werdum can stand with Fedor and survive.
And I think I can stand with BJ and survive.
That is, Werdum's sub-par striking doesn't stand a chance.
I don't really think Werdum will beat him, but I do think Fedor's skillset is massively overrated.
The problem with this line of thinking is that if he's overrated--and luck has played such a vital role in his success--how the hell has it happened 32 times?
Yes, Fedor has been put in some bad positions and I can agree that he was losing against AA. I still want to see what would've happened if Arlovski hadn't charged in with that knee. But the odds are that if Fedor hadn't caught him right at that moment then he would've done it somewhere within the next 4 1/2 rounds. Because that's just what he does.[/quote:bejgmtvj]
Arlovski/Fedor was a 3 round fight.[/quote:bejgmtvj]
It was a 5rd fight. For the WAMMA belt
I only give 2 people a shot at beating Fedor and Werdum isnt even close to being one of them
It was a 5rd fight. For the WAMMA belt
no it wasnt ,it was a 3 minute fight I've seen it many times
It was a 5rd fight. For the WAMMA belt
no it wasnt ,it was a 3 minute fight I've seen it many times
::lmao::
Mr. IWS
04-30-2010, 02:25 PM
no it wasnt ,it was a 3 minute fight I've seen it many times
Still one of the best Birthday presents I ever got.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 02:30 PM
^^ Just saying, he is not invincible. He has been in some wars and had to make a lot of comebacks. He has also walked through some top guys too.
As far as Arona, I don't think Fedor won that fight under any objective criteria. I just re-watched it, here is my pbp:
Arona hits TD right to side control. Fedor is trying to guillotine from under side control. Arona has mount for 2 seconds, Fedor still clinging to the guillotine and reguards. Fedor tries to get up Arona has back with hooks in. Arona trying to RNC. fedor rolls over, Arona has mount. 4 miutes later, Arona still has mount. At 5 minute mark Arona goes for Americana and Fedor bridges him off. Fedor in Arona's guard, nothing happening, Fedor stands up. Arona shoots striaght into side control again, Fedor trying the guillotine from under side control again. Round ends with Arona in side control.
Rd 2 Fedor stuffs a couple of shots but nothing lands on the feet. Arona shoots in and hits a takedown. Arona passes guard, mounts. Fedor sits up and tries an ankle lock, Arona defends and mounts again. Arona working for no gi cross choke, and no gi ezekiel from mount. For some reason the ref stands them up, from mount. They trade shots, leg kicks, nothing hard. Arona with another takedown. Fedor still trying to guillotine but at least has half now. Arona passes.
The fight should be over at this point... Arona has totally dominated the fight. He is up with his arms raised and jumping for joy at his vicotry. But in some alternate universe where being mounted for 8 of 10 minutes wins a round, they go to a 3rd round. The clinch, shot stuffed, knees to teh legs by Arona. Arona with a takedown. Arona mounts, fedor explodes to his feet. Arona pulls guard, Fedor punches teh thighs and stomach. They separate, Fedor pulls guard and tries to guillotine again. Arona wins all 3 rounds, easily.
Decision announced, Arona is pissed, Fedor looks ashamed. It is a clear cheat job.
Under no objective criteria, unified rules or not, did Fedor win that fight or even 1 round of that fight. He basically got Dan Hardy'd. If the criteria is being mounted and generally getting schooled, then yes, Fedor won. But he was mounted for about 12 minutes of the 15 minute fight. He had zero offense. There is no criteria under which he won.
For those that have not seen:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3891832709081896340#
I am not saying all of this to bag on Fedor. Fedor is the man. And it is totally irrelevant to today's Fedor, as it was 10 years ago. But I really wish that the judge's would not have screwed Arona here, because we would not all be subjected the UNDEFEATED-How can you knock a guy that has NEVER lost-talk...
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 02:32 PM
I am just saying, the closest thing to Arona that Fedor has ever fought is Werdum. Probably Werdum is going to get KO'd, but people saying he has no shot... its crazy talk.
I just rewatched the Rodgers and AA fights and Fedor was never in trouble in either one.
AA was winning round one but really only land 2-3 punches the rest were kicks
Actually Fedor landed the bigger shots in round 1 against Rodgers.
AA was winning round one but really only land 2-3 punches the rest were kicks
Well kicks count. . .
^^ Just saying, he is not invincible. He has been in some wars and had to make a lot of comebacks. He has also walked through some top guys too.
As far as Arona, I don't think Fedor won that fight under any objective criteria. I just re-watched it, here is my pbp:
Arona hits TD right to side control. Fedor is trying to guillotine from under side control. Arona has mount for 2 seconds, Fedor still clinging to the guillotine and reguards. Fedor tries to get up Arona has back with hooks in. Arona trying to RNC. fedor rolls over, Arona has mount. 4 miutes later, Arona still has mount. At 5 minute mark Arona goes for Americana and Fedor bridges him off. Fedor in Arona's guard, nothing happening, Fedor stands up. Arona shoots striaght into side control again, Fedor trying the guillotine from under side control again. Round ends with Arona in side control.
Rd 2 Fedor stuffs a couple of shots but nothing lands on the feet. Arona shoots in and hits a takedown. Arona passes guard, mounts. Fedor sits up and tries an ankle lock, Arona defends and mounts again. Arona working for no gi cross choke, and no gi ezekiel from mount. For some reason the ref stands them up, from mount. They trade shots, leg kicks, nothing hard. Arona with another takedown. Fedor still trying to guillotine but at least has half now. Arona passes.
The fight should be over at this point... Arona has totally dominated the fight. He is up with his arms raised and jumping for joy at his vicotry. But in some alternate universe where being mounted for 8 of 10 minutes wins a round, they go to a 3rd round. The clinch, shot stuffed, knees to teh legs by Arona. Arona with a takedown. Arona mounts, fedor explodes to his feet. Arona pulls guard, Fedor punches teh thighs and stomach. They separate, Fedor pulls guard and tries to guillotine again. Arona wins all 3 rounds, easily.
Decision announced, Arona is pissed, Fedor looks ashamed. It is a clear cheat job.
Under no objective criteria, unified rules or not, did Fedor win that fight or even 1 round of that fight. He basically got Dan Hardy'd. If the criteria is being mounted and generally getting schooled, then yes, Fedor won. But he was mounted for about 12 minutes of the 15 minute fight. He had zero offense. There is no criteria under which he won.
For those that have not seen:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3891832709081896340#
I am not saying all of this to bag on Fedor. Fedor is the man. And it is totally irrelevant to today's Fedor, as it was 10 years ago. But I really wish that the judge's would not have screwed Arona here, because we would not all be subjected the UNDEFEATED-How can you knock a guy that has NEVER lost-talk...
Never seen the Arona fight .Let me go watch it and score it before reading this so I can be bias ::handshake::
AA was winning round one but really only land 2-3 punches the rest were kicks
Well kicks count. . .
Really? What part of "AA was winning round one" didnt you understand ?
The "AA" the "was winning" or the "round one" lol
AA was winning round one but really only land 2-3 punches the rest were kicks
Well kicks count. . .
Really? What part of "AA was winning round one" didnt you understand ?
The "AA" the "was winning" or the "round one" lol
What about those uppercuts Fedor was landing in the clinch?
I mean, I GUESS you could say AA was winning the round, but not a whole lot was happening. And it's kind of irrelevant as Fedor put a nice stamp on the round.
Really? What part of "AA was winning round one" didnt you understand ?
The "AA" the "was winning" or the "round one" lol
LOL
Just seemed like you were saying that because they were kicks it made made his dominance up to that point less legit.
Really? What part of "AA was winning round one" didnt you understand ?
The "AA" the "was winning" or the "round one" lol
LOL
Just seemed like you were saying that because they were kicks it made made his dominance up to that point less legit.
Nah I was just saying Fedor was never in touble because he only got hit with 2-3 punches ,the rest were kicks ::handshake::
Nah I was just saying Fedor was never in touble because he only got hit with 2-3 punches ,the rest were kicks ::handshake::
It's been a while since I last saw the fight so my memory's hazy, but from my recollection Fedor was getting knocked around like a pinata before the KO.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 02:59 PM
Nah I was just saying Fedor was never in touble because he only got hit with 2-3 punches ,the rest were kicks ::handshake::
It's been a while since I last saw the fight so my memory's hazy, but from my recollection Fedor was getting knocked around like a pinata before the KO.
that's how I remembered it too, but I watched it live and have not seen it since. I actually remember thinking he was wobbly and I thoght AA was going to KO him. In fact, AA jumped in with the fatal knee because I think he thought Fedor was done.
It's been a while since I last saw the fight so my memory's hazy, but from my recollection Fedor was getting knocked around like a pinata before the KO.
You need to rewatch it then.This time with glasses
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 03:04 PM
I am guessing by your lack of response that you agree that Fedor lost to Arona. Anyone, anyone watching that fight objectively would agree.
I am guessing by your lack of response that you agree that Fedor lost to Arona. Anyone, anyone watching that fight objectively would agree.
LOL you got to give me time to watch it.I said I was going to watch it 25 minutes ago.The fight is 3 5 minutes rounds with a minute break.Thats 18 minutes sorry I had piss and let the dogs out I'm almost done
LOL you got to give me time to watch it.I said I was going to watch it 25 minutes ago.The fight is 3 5 minutes rounds with a minute break.Thats 18 minutes sorry I had piss and let the dogs out I'm almost done
LOL
By the way, do you work nights or something?
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 03:13 PM
I am guessing by your lack of response that you agree that Fedor lost to Arona. Anyone, anyone watching that fight objectively would agree.
LOL you got to give me time to watch it.I said I was going to watch it 25 minutes ago.The fight is 3 5 minutes rounds with a minute break.Thats 18 minutes sorry I had piss and let the dogs out I'm almost done
So you are admitting you have had time to watch it.
now that you have achieved moderator status, I expect you to do nothing but hang out and reply to posts. With great power, comes great responsibility.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 03:14 PM
LOL you got to give me time to watch it.I said I was going to watch it 25 minutes ago.The fight is 3 5 minutes rounds with a minute break.Thats 18 minutes sorry I had piss and let the dogs out I'm almost done
LOL
By the way, do you work nights or something?
I am self employed. I am at "work" now. I rarely get on the internet past 5pm, which is when I go home most of the time.
LOL you got to give me time to watch it.I said I was going to watch it 25 minutes ago.The fight is 3 5 minutes rounds with a minute break.Thats 18 minutes sorry I had piss and let the dogs out I'm almost done
LOL
By the way, do you work nights or something?
No I works days but I took today off because it was suppose to be 80 degrees today.Even when I'm at work I can play on here I usually get all my work done early at work so I can screw off the last couple hours on here
No I works days but I took today off because it was suppose to be 80 degrees today.Even when I'm at work I can play on here I usually get all my work done early at work so I can screw off the last couple hours on here
I just noticed that the other day you had said something too about taking the dogs out so I was thinking you must work nights or something.
[quote="MMA_scientist":tquby4qg]I am guessing by your lack of response that you agree that Fedor lost to Arona. Anyone, anyone watching that fight objectively would agree.
LOL you got to give me time to watch it.I said I was going to watch it 25 minutes ago.The fight is 3 5 minutes rounds with a minute break.Thats 18 minutes sorry I had piss and let the dogs out I'm almost done
So you are admitting you have had time to watch it.
now that you have achieved moderator status, I expect you to do nothing but hang out and reply to posts. With great power, comes great responsibility.[/quote:tquby4qg]
I watched it .Round 1 Arona ,round 2 Fedor,round 3 either way
Aronas problem in the fight is he was on top of Fedor many,many times but did nothing and I mean nothing while there.The 5 or more times he was on top of Fedor I dont think he landed one single strike.What was his plan while on top lay there until the ref stood them back up each time? At least Fedor was trying to strike and pull off chokes while on the bottom.
I have a hard time giving rounds to anyone that does nothing but lay on someone.Had he thrown 10 strikes each round when he was on top he probably would have easily got the decision.
I think it was a close fight that could have went either way but far from the robbery you made it out to be
No I works days but I took today off because it was suppose to be 80 degrees today.Even when I'm at work I can play on here I usually get all my work done early at work so I can screw off the last couple hours on here
I just noticed that the other day you had said something too about taking the dogs out so I was thinking you must work nights or something.
They are inside dogs I have to "take them out " so they can use the restroom.I usually take them out one last time before going to bed.
They are inside dogs I have to "take them out " so they can use the restroom.I usually take them out one last time before going to bed.
I was just saying that you have to be home to do that and it was during the day that you mentioned it the last time, too.
They are inside dogs I have to "take them out " so they can use the restroom.I usually take them out one last time before going to bed.
I was just saying that you have to be home to do that and it was during the day that you mentioned it the last time, too.
If it was a friday I took the day off .But the last time remember mentionung letting the dogs out on here was during some fights because it made me miss a fight.So that would have been a Sat or Sun
They are inside dogs I have to "take them out " so they can use the restroom.I usually take them out one last time before going to bed.
I was just saying that you have to be home to do that and it was during the day that you mentioned it the last time, too.
Are you talking about the other day when MMAscientist and Zy were going at it?
I had just got home and took the dogs a quick walk so they could shit.
When its 4pm where I live and my days over its only 1pm where you are and lunch is just finishing.I live in Ohio
Are you talking about the other day when MMAscientist and Zy were going at it?
I had just got home and took the dogs a quick walk so they could shit.
When its 4pm where I live and my days over its only 1pm where you are and lunch is just finishing.I live in Ohio
Yeah, that was it.
By the way, we're mountain time so we're only 2 hours behind.
4 PM is pretty early for your day to be over. Must be nice. I don't get off until 5:30.
Are you talking about the other day when MMAscientist and Zy were going at it?
I had just got home and took the dogs a quick walk so they could shit.
When its 4pm where I live and my days over its only 1pm where you are and lunch is just finishing.I live in Ohio
Yeah, that was it.
By the way, we're mountain time so we're only 2 hours behind.
4 PM is pretty early for your day to be over. Must be nice. I don't get off until 5:30.
Its only 2 hours difference? Vegas is 3 hours so I just thought you were the same
You dont have to be at work till 9:30 am? Thats very late "days" hours
I'd rather get off at 5:30 than 3pm .I fucking hate getting up at 6:15 especially since I dont get to sleep until 2am or later sometimes.My GF works 5am-1pm so we are both off early
She's the sameway as me .She gets up at 3:30 am but doesnt go to sleep till 11pm most of the time so neither of us get alot sleep during the week then we sleep 12 hours a day on the weekend
MMAscientist with no comments on my scoring??
I knew I did good
Its only 2 hours difference? Vegas is 3 hours so I just thought you were the same
It's 2 o' clock here right now.
You dont have to be at work till 9:30 am? Thats very late "days" hours
I get here at 9:00 and take a half hour lunch.
I'd rather get off at 5:30 than 3pm .I fucking hate getting up at 6:15 especially since I dont get to sleep until 2am or later sometimes.My GF works 5am-1pm so we are both off early
She's the sameway as me .She gets up at 3:30 am but doesnt go to sleep till 11pm most of the time so neither of us get alot sleep during the week then we sleep 12 hours a day on the weekend
I agree completely on this one. I HATE HATE HATE getting up early. I used to have to be at work at 7 AM and it sucked.
I can't deal with getting no sleep though. I can't stand being tired. It just ruins the whole day. When I had to be at work at 7 I was getting up at like 5:45 and going to bed around 10.
I dont have to get up too early to head off to work it only takes me 15 minutes to get there
No sleep doesnt really bother me that much during the week.If I'm tired when I get home I'll take like a 15-30 minute nap to recharge .Sometimes by friday I'm shot though and I'll fall asleep at 1am and wake up at 1pm.
It really doesnt matter if I get 12 hours or 2 hours of sleep I seem to fall asleep around the sametime
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 04:43 PM
MMAscientist with no comments on my scoring??
I knew I did good
Sorry, I had to work for a second.
I guess we just see grappling differently. To me, MMA is not about who can throw weak punches. Grappling is 50% of the MMA equation. Arona had multiple takedowns in every round. But aside from the takedowns, he had mount in every round. Just the mere achievement of obtaining mount shows total dominance. In grapping, if you get mounted, you got schooled.
I agree Arona did not do much, but he was there, working for a choke. He was looking for that ezekiel a lot. Maybe the refs didn't realize what he was doing since it not a common choke in MMA.
A mount counts for nothing? A takedown counts for nothing? If Fedor had done anything at all to turn the tides, I could see giving him some points. But if you have just been under mount for 4 minutes, you need to do more than punch the thighs a few times to wipe that out. Neither guy landed a decent strike, but Arona positionally dominated him. Since it was essentially a grappling match, Arona would have won like 68-0. Fedor never took one position on him. No takedowns, never passed guard, no side control. Nothing. AND he didn't land any effective strikes.
In my opinion, he would have had to score knock down punches in every round to wipe out the dominance that Arona was putting on him on the mat. For what its worth, I think Arona landed the better shots on the feet too.
So I guess we are just going to have to disagree. Because there is no way you can convince me Fedor won a round.
Of course, it is obvious your Fedor fandom is clouding you.
Of course, it is obvious your Fedor fandom is clouding you.
I haven't seen the fight so I can't comment, but I did want to address this comment.
Speaking of bias, it has been obvious to me on many occasions that your grappling background has clouded your own judgement. You cream in your pants any time anyone does anything related to wrestling or BJJ and you always think that grapplaz R da best!
Like I said, I haven't seen this fight so I don't know who did what, but I do know that ultimately the point of a fight is to do damage. So damage should always be paramount to position.
I like the cage because the fighters never have to be repositioned, but I don't like the advantage it gives to wrestlers. For that reason alone I've sometimes wished the UFC used a ring instead.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 05:19 PM
Of course, it is obvious your Fedor fandom is clouding you.
I haven't seen the fight so I can't comment, but I did want to address this comment.
Speaking of bias, it has been obvious to me on many occasions that your grappling background has clouded your own judgement. You cream in your pants any time anyone does anything related to wrestling or BJJ and you always think that grapplaz R da best!
Like I said, I haven't seen this fight so I don't know who did what, but I do know that ultimately the point of a fight is to do damage. So damage should always be paramount to position.
I like the cage because the fighters never have to be repositioned, but I don't like the advantage it gives to wrestlers. For that reason alone I've sometimes wished the UFC used a ring instead.
I have never tried to hide my grappling bias. But I don't think it clouds me. I like grappling more than striking, so I root for grapplers. But I think I score fairly, grappling is part of MMA, whether the drunken WWE fans want it or not.
Also, grapplers ARE the best.
I guess I disagree that damage is the point of the fight... to me the point of the fight is to end it. If I can submit you without hurting you, I still win. If I use 4 minutes of a round trying to submit you from back mount, and you get out and land a few leg kicks, I still win. But to judges, the point of the fight is not even to end or damage, it is to score points, regardless of the what the criteria states. If you land a huge shot that breaks my nose, but I land 100 leg kicks, I still win. Also, damage is not always immediately visible. There are lots of kinds of damage besides blunt trauma to the head.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 05:25 PM
How does a cage give an advantage to a wrestler? Wrestlers usually try to drag guys away from the cage these days so they can't wall walk up to their feet.
Aside from that, every modern rule in MMA is to help strikers. Standups. 5 minute rounds. No knees to the head on the ground (this rule completely changes the game for grapplers). No strikes to the back of the head (for safety I think, but it hurts grapplers).
I have never tried to hide my grappling bias.
Oh, we all know.
Also, grapplers ARE the best.
Yeah, that's what Dustin Hazelett just said. . .
No, but seriously, everyone knows that being one-dimensional doesn't work anymore. The thing about grappling is that you have to get your opponent down to do anything with it. There's nothing worse for a grappler than a great striker with excellent takedown defense. And sure, you could say that the art of takedown defense is itself a sort of grappling skill, and that's true, but a striker who can't be taken down is the most dangerous type of fighter in the sport.
I guess I disagree that damage is the point of the fight... to me the point of the fight is to end it. If I can submit you without hurting you, I still win.
Well I would say that a submission equals damage done because if the submission move was taken to its total conclusion then it would very much damage the opponent. So I'm not really talking about successfully getting a sub. I'm more talking about wrestlers who use their skills to do nothing but control their opponent.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 05:46 PM
Yeah, that's what Dustin Hazelett just said. . .
No, but seriously, everyone knows that being one-dimensional doesn't work anymore. The thing about grappling is that you have to get your opponent down to do anything with it. There's nothing worse than a grappler than a great striker with excellent takedown defense. And sure, you could say that the art of takedown defense is itself a sort of grappling skill, and that's true, but a striker who can't be taken down is the most dangerous type of fighter in the sport.
You can still win by being a grappler only. You might not ever be champion, but you can get pretty damn far. Maia ran his record to 11-0 and a top 10 ranking, beating some pretty good guys along the way, without an ounce of striking skill. Just jiu jitsu.
I could just as easily say that the most dangerous fighter is a brilliant grappler with unstoppable takedowns, and it would be equally valid. The most dangerous fighter is the fighter that can make the other guy fight to his strength. Some guys do it by sprawling (Silva/Machida), others do it by getting the TD (GSP/Lesnar). So I disagree there for sure.
I could just as easily say that the most dangerous fighter is a brilliant grappler with unstoppable takedowns, and it would be equally valid. The most dangerous fighter is the fighter that can make the other guy fight to his strength. Some guys do it by sprawling (Silva/Machida), others do it by getting the TD (GSP/Lesnar). So I disagree there for sure.
Yeah, that's true. I think the way I see the difference is that the default position for a fight is on the feet. All the striker has to do is stay there. It is the status quo. The grappler, on the other hand, has to have the ability to change that.
Svino
04-30-2010, 06:13 PM
I'll comment on the rest of the thread later, but first: my math homework (lol).
I am creating a new symbol, like a bat symbol, used to call Svino into situations and math to set us straight:
Lets say that 20% of a fight can be attriubted to luck. So under normal circumstances Fedor's skill alone would make him 26-6. I do not dispute that Fedor is very skilled, just that his skill is much greater than any other top fighter.
Since there are thousands of fighters, I think the odds that one guy would get 10 lucky wins without a loss is not really that great. So lets just limit it to the top 50 fighters.
Svino, is there any way to quantify this, using my made up numbers?
If there are 50 fighters, and 20% of the time they will win or lose due to "luck", what are the chances that one of those guys would be unbeaten after 32 fights?
Well, I don't think the problem has been completely specified, but here's something close:
Suppose an organization has 50 fighters, that are ranked in skill from #1 to #50. When they fight, it's a coin toss 20% of the time and the rest of the time, the better fighter wins. Basically, that would mean each match is 90%-10% in favor of the more skilled fighter. If you're numero uno, you have odds of going 33-0 that are 0.9^33 or about 3%. You also have odds of going exactly 32-1 that are 33*(.1)*(.9)^32 = 11.3%.
For any other fighter except the worst, you would have to make some kind of assumptions about the scheduling. But I'd say if the number 2 or 3 guys went on a tear, they would almost certainly get matched up against #1 at some point and would have a 90% chance to lose that fight. So their odds are probably 10 times smaller than the percentages above.
What you're getting at is similar to something I consider when making guesses about fighters that I don't know anything about other than their W/L record against small-time opposition.
There's an anecdote related in Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" about Enrico Fermi that goes like this:
My favorite example is this story, told about the Italian physicist Enrico Fermi, newly arrived on American shores, enlisted in the Manhattan nuclear weapons project, and brought face-to-face in the midst of World War Two with US flag officers:
So-and-so is a great general, he was told.
"What is the definition of a great general?" Fermi characteristically asked.
"I guess it's a general who's won many consecutive battles"
"How many?"
After some back and forth they settled on five.
"What fraction of American generals are great?"
After some more back and forth, they settled on a few per cent.
But imagine, Fermi rejoined, that there is no such thing as a great general, that all armies are equally matched, and that winning a battle is purely a matter of chance. Then the chance of winning one battle is one out of two, or 1/2; two battles 1/4, three 1/8, four 1/16 and five consecutive battles 1/32, which is about three per cent. You would expect a few per cent of American generals to win five consecutive battles, purely by chance. Now has any of them won ten consecutive battles ..... ?
So what I like to do is think about how likely it is that someone could get their record purely by coin-toss. So by that reasoning, 8-1 (3.5%) is juuust a hair worse than 5-0 (3.1%) , but 9-1 (1.9%) is better.
You lost me at "I'll. . ."
*No, don't bother explaining. . .*
Doesn't seem like something that can really be quantified, considering the numbers you're working with are fairly arbitrary. Obviously there is some 'luck' involved in everything, but great fighters like Fedor seem to simply rise to the occasion and take advantage of miniscule opportunities. Like in regular sports, you have players that are referred to as 'clutch', who often turn in their best performance when it matters most.
That anecdote is badass btw.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 06:41 PM
Well, I don't think the problem has been completely specified, but here's something close:
Suppose an organization has 50 fighters, that are ranked in skill from #1 to #50. When they fight, it's a coin toss 20% of the time and the rest of the time, the better fighter wins. Basically, that would mean each match is 90%-10% in favor of the more skilled fighter. If you're numero uno, you have odds of going 33-0 that are 0.9^33 or about 3%. You also have odds of going exactly 32-1 that are 33*(.1)*(.9)^32 = 11.3%.
For any other fighter except the worst, you would have to make some kind of assumptions about the scheduling. But I'd say if the number 2 or 3 guys went on a tear, they would almost certainly get matched up against #1 at some point and would have a 90% chance to lose that fight. So their odds are probably 10 times smaller than the percentages above.
What you're getting at is similar to something I consider when making guesses about fighters that I don't know anything about other than their W/L record against small-time opposition.
There's an anecdote related in Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" about Enrico Fermi that goes like this:
So what I like to do is think about how likely it is that someone could get their record purely by coin-toss. So by that reasoning, 8-1 (3.5%) is juuust a hair worse than 5-0 (3.1%) , but 9-1 (1.9%) is better.
Damn I wish I would have paid more attention in math class. I never imagined how useful it would be to gambling.
So bottom line is that Fedor's win streak (assuming a coin toss 20% of the time) would occur about 3% of the time? Of course I am just making assumptions about the percentage of luck involved...
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 06:42 PM
I could just as easily say that the most dangerous fighter is a brilliant grappler with unstoppable takedowns, and it would be equally valid. The most dangerous fighter is the fighter that can make the other guy fight to his strength. Some guys do it by sprawling (Silva/Machida), others do it by getting the TD (GSP/Lesnar). So I disagree there for sure.
Yeah, that's true. I think the way I see the difference is that the default position for a fight is on the feet. All the striker has to do is stay there. It is the status quo. The grappler, on the other hand, has to have the ability to change that.
http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47/TDMMA/ufc/ArtJimmerson.gif
We're talking about strikers with great takedown defense.
You yourself said Machida.
We're talking about strikers with great takedown defense.
You yourself said Machida.
He's trolling you now.
You lost me at "I'll. . ."
*No, don't bother explaining. . .*
::lmao:: LOL SPX
Svino
04-30-2010, 06:55 PM
We're talking about strikers with great takedown defense.
You yourself said Machida.
Really, this is like an unstoppable force / immovable object question. Who's better, the perfect striker who can't be taken down, or the guy whos takedown's can't be stopped and won't get submitted?
::lmao:: LOL SPX
I'm just completely incompetent when it comes to anything involving numbers. I see math going on and I totally shut down.
I'm actually struggling to pass my intermediate algebra class right now. I have to make a mad studying dash through the weekend so that I can go and (hopefully) pass my final on Monday.
We're talking about strikers with great takedown defense.
You yourself said Machida.
Really, this is like an unstoppable force / immovable object question. Who's better, the perfect striker who can't be taken down, or the guy whos takedown's can't be stopped and won't get submitted?
Sounds like a p4p argument, aka pointless.
Svino
04-30-2010, 06:59 PM
Like in regular sports, you have players that are referred to as 'clutch', who often turn in their best performance when it matters most.
Those guys are slackers. You're supposed to give 110% all the time, not just when there are runners on base!
MMAscientist with no comments on my scoring??
I knew I did good
Sorry, I had to work for a second.
I guess we just see grappling differently. To me, MMA is not about who can throw weak punches. Grappling is 50% of the MMA equation. Arona had multiple takedowns in every round. But aside from the takedowns, he had mount in every round. Just the mere achievement of obtaining mount shows total dominance. In grapping, if you get mounted, you got schooled.
I agree Arona did not do much, but he was there, working for a choke. He was looking for that ezekiel a lot. Maybe the refs didn't realize what he was doing since it not a common choke in MMA.
A mount counts for nothing? A takedown counts for nothing? If Fedor had done anything at all to turn the tides, I could see giving him some points. But if you have just been under mount for 4 minutes, you need to do more than punch the thighs a few times to wipe that out. Neither guy landed a decent strike, but Arona positionally dominated him. Since it was essentially a grappling match, Arona would have won like 68-0. Fedor never took one position on him. No takedowns, never passed guard, no side control. Nothing. AND he didn't land any effective strikes.
In my opinion, he would have had to score knock down punches in every round to wipe out the dominance that Arona was putting on him on the mat. For what its worth, I think Arona landed the better shots on the feet too.
So I guess we are just going to have to disagree. Because there is no way you can convince me Fedor won a round.
Of course, it is obvious your Fedor fandom is clouding you.
You admitted to be bias toward grapplers but I am not biased toward Fedor. I'm not really even a fan of him and have never bet on him I just thought the picture was cool.To tell you the truth I was rooting for Rodgers to win their fight
I watched that fight 100% without a bias toward either fighter and I'm sure most people around here would say I dont favor any fighters and score the rounds as fairly as possible .The fact you said you are biased toward grapplers completely throws you scorecard out the window in my opinion because you think laying on someone while sleeping should count more than strikes.
Like I said had Arona done ANYTHING the many many times he was on top he would have won.Hell Fedor at least tried 2-3 chokes from the bottom while Arona was sleeping on him. I really dont think in the 5-7 times he was on top he threw any strikes.
Sleeping on top of someone doesnt count for a lot in my book.Your grappler Arona tried less submissions than Fedor did in that fight
Like in regular sports, you have players that are referred to as 'clutch', who often turn in their best performance when it matters most.
Those guys are slackers. You're supposed to give 110% all the time, not just when there are runners on base!
LOL
Maybe the analogy sucked, I dunno. I just thought it sounded distinguished-like.
Really, this is like an unstoppable force / immovable object question. Who's better, the perfect striker who can't be taken down, or the guy whos takedown's can't be stopped and won't get submitted?
You're probably right.
::lmao:: LOL SPX
I'm just completely incompetent when it comes to anything involving numbers. I see math going on and I totally shut down.
I'm actually struggling to pass my intermediate algebra class right now. I have to make a mad studying dash through the weekend so that I can go and (hopefully) pass my final on Monday.
Math is all memory imo
If you remember the basic formula for a problem then all you do is plug in numbers
Math is all memory imo
If you remember the basic formula for a problem then all you do is plug in numbers
For me a lot of the concepts are just too technical. Like with factoring. That shit fucks me up.
Math is all memory imo
If you remember the basic formula for a problem then all you do is plug in numbers
For me a lot of the concepts are just too technical. Like with factoring. That shit fucks me up.
Yeah I dont like math either but it always came easy to me.Now writing a paper thats where I'm stupid
Really, this is like an unstoppable force / immovable object question. Who's better, the perfect striker who can't be taken down, or the guy whos takedown's can't be stopped and won't get submitted?
Well either guy A can stop guy B's takedowns or he cant ,its one or the other.
Yeah I dont like math either but it always came easy to me.Now writing a paper thats where I'm stupid
We are the opposite then. I have always done well when it comes to things like composition and history.
I do not do well when it comes to math or advanced science (especially when it involves math, like physics).
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 07:16 PM
You admitted to be bias toward grapplers but I am not biased toward Fedor. I'm not really even a fan of him and have never bet on him I just thought the picture was cool.To tell you the truth I was rooting for Rodgers to win their fight
I watched that fight 100% without a bias toward either fighter and I'm sure most people around here would say I dont favor any fighters and score the rounds as fairly as possible .The fact you said you are biased toward grapplers completely throws you scorecard out the window in my opinion because you think laying on someone while sleeping should count more than strikes.
Like I said had Arona done ANYTHING the many many times he was on top he would have won.Hell Fedor at least tried 2-3 chokes from the bottom while Arona was sleeping on him. I really dont think in the 5-7 times he was on top he threw any strikes.
Sleeping on top of someone doesnt count for a lot in my book.Your grappler Arona tried less submissions than Fedor did in that fight
So in your book, grappling only counts if they are throwing punches... I just see it differently. I said I like grappling more, personally, but I don't give it more weight in scoring. I do give positions weight, even if there are no punches being thrown. I don't see that as a bias, I see that as knowing what I am watching.
If you think flailing limp arms in the general direction of the opponent should count for more, that it is your hang up. Grappling is part of MMA (modern MMA was created by a bunch of grapplers to show how dominant their grappling style is is to striking and all other styles), and positionally dominating someone counts.
I don't think grappling should count more than striking, but it takes more than some thigh punches to wipe out 4 minutes of mount.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 07:19 PM
::lmao:: LOL SPX
I'm just completely incompetent when it comes to anything involving numbers. I see math going on and I totally shut down.
I'm actually struggling to pass my intermediate algebra class right now. I have to make a mad studying dash through the weekend so that I can go and (hopefully) pass my final on Monday.
Math is all memory imo
If you remember the basic formula for a problem then all you do is plug in numbers
I think basic algebra is memory. But advanced stuff is abstract problem solving. You have to not only know how to solve the problem, but you have to know how to quantify the problem.
I am terrible at math though. I am an abstract thinker, but I cannot pay attention long enough to learn anything.
You guys do know RINGS didn't allow ground and pound, right?
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 07:21 PM
You guys do know RINGS didn't allow ground and pound, right?
Are you serious? I did not know that. In that case, Arona DEFINITELY won.
So in your book, grappling only counts if they are throwing punches... I just see it differently. I said I like grappling more, personally, but I don't give it more weight in scoring. I do give positions weight, even if there are no punches being thrown. I don't see that as a bias, I see that as knowing what I am watching.
If you think flailing limp arms in the general direction of the opponent should count for more, that it is your hang up. Grappling is part of MMA (modern MMA was created by a bunch of grapplers to show how dominant their grappling style is is to striking and all other styles), and positionally dominating someone counts.
I don't think grappling should count more than striking, but it takes more than some thigh punches to wipe out 4 minutes of mount.
I think what I am saying is I give Arona credit for a takedown and thats it .If he sleeps on him for 4 minutes he gets no more points from me .He has to do something after the takedown besides lay there.Throw a punch,throw an elbow ,try a choke or another submission.
If fighter A gets a takedown in the first minute of the round and then lays on the bottom guy and does nothing the rest of the round and fighter B threw more strikes in the first minute,threw more strikes while being on the bottom,and tried a choke while on the bottom I'm giving the round to fighter B
Now if you want to flip that and fighter A tries takedown after takedown but fails to secure a one but fighter B lands one big punch in the first minute and then runs the rest of the round while only defending takedowns I give the round to fighter A
To me you just cant do one thing in the first minute of a 5 minute round and then just play dead the rest of the round and win it.
You guys do know RINGS didn't allow ground and pound, right?
What? ::jaydrop::
Can you show me the rules for it somewhere?
You guys do know RINGS didn't allow ground and pound, right?
What? ::jaydrop::
Can you show me the rules for it somewhere?
No I've been searching but I can't find their rules anywhere. But from what little I can gleam, they didn't allow head strikes on the ground, and fights are judged by attempts to finish. All those older orgs had strange rules. Like in Pancrase there was no closed fist striking, only open hand bitch slaps or palm strikes.
There's a blurb in Fedor's wiki about it, under the rings section, and there's a mention of it here.
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/mma.htm
Also, I haven't watched the fight in forever, but if they allowed head strikes and Fedor was ever on top, Arona would probably have died.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 07:31 PM
So in your book, grappling only counts if they are throwing punches... I just see it differently. I said I like grappling more, personally, but I don't give it more weight in scoring. I do give positions weight, even if there are no punches being thrown. I don't see that as a bias, I see that as knowing what I am watching.
If you think flailing limp arms in the general direction of the opponent should count for more, that it is your hang up. Grappling is part of MMA (modern MMA was created by a bunch of grapplers to show how dominant their grappling style is is to striking and all other styles), and positionally dominating someone counts.
I don't think grappling should count more than striking, but it takes more than some thigh punches to wipe out 4 minutes of mount.
I think what I am saying is I give Arona credit for a takedown and thats it .If he sleeps on him for 4 minutes he gets no more points from me .He has to do something after the takedown besides lay there.Throw a punch,throw an elbow ,try a choke or another submission.
If fighter A gets a takedown in the first minute of the round and then lays on the bottom guy and does nothing the rest of the round and fighter B threw more strikes in the first minute,threw more strikes while being on the bottom,and tried a choke while on the bottom I'm giving the round to fighter B
Now if you want to flip that and fighter A tries takedown after takedown but fails to secure a one but fighter B lands one big punch in the first minute and then runs the rest of the round while only defending takedowns I give the round to fighter A
To me you just cant do one thing in the first minute of a 5 minute round and then just play dead the rest of the round and win it.
I can agree with that, we just disagree that he did not do anything. It is one thing if he just pinned him down from inside guard, old school Rashad style. But to me, passing guard, mounting and taking the back is doing something. If you gain a dominant position (in fact the most dominant position other than back control with bottom man flattened out) then you get grappling dominance credit, regardless of whether you throw punches.
I think me and MMAscientist are a perfect example of how one judge scores a fight one way and the other gives it to the other fighter
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 07:40 PM
I think me and MMAscientist are a perfect example of how one judge scores a fight one way and the other gives it to the other fighter
Me and Jeff Blatnick are the bet judges in MMA.
You ride with C-Peeps.
Me and Jeff Blatnick are the bet judges in MMA.
You ride with C-Peeps.
Hey, that's not very nice. . .
Blatnick is the man for realz though.
Svino
04-30-2010, 09:20 PM
But from what little I can gleam, they didn't allow head strikes on the ground, and fights are judged by attempts to finish.
Yes, that's what I remember. The irony of Fedor's early career is that RINGS rules were really poorly suited to him in that way. That's how Sobral managed to take Fedor the distance. Sobral couldn't stay standing and Fedor couldn't punch to his head, so he just had to beat Renato in the stomach and ribs for the whole length of the fight.
If I had my preference as to how fights were scored, I would award no points for pure position. The point of getting a mount is supposed to be that it's a better platform for striking or submission attempts. If you can't or won't use it for that - no cookie. Takedowns should be worth a lot, though - especially violent ones. The only reason guys aren't dead from some of those is because they're on a mat. They should be worth at least as much as a heavy punch. Also, I would award a lot for "near finishes" including nearly completed submissions. And any fighter that ever gets "saved by the bell" should be all but totally exempt from a decision win.
On the other hand, I might just prefer no judging. Finish the fight or it's a draw. I'm old-school that way.
I think me and MMAscientist are a perfect example of how one judge scores a fight one way and the other gives it to the other fighter
Me and Jeff Blatnick are the bet judges in MMA.
You ride with C-Peeps.
::shake:: Best judges that dont get the score right
I scored the Fedor fight right ,you're the one that had the wrong score giving all rounds Arona
I bet you scored Machida-Sho Gun 5 rounds to 0 for Liddell
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 10:37 PM
zY, Blatnick really is the man. They should just him be the judge alone, because he is the only judge that knows how to score a fight.
Svino, I disagree. Mount is supposed to be a better offensive position, and thus its superiority in the positional hierarchy... but when there is little damage done by either fighter, positional dominance shows that fighter was in control. But aside from that, you definately cannot be hurt while in mount. There are no submissions or strikes that the bottom man can perform, so you have totally immobilized any chance of offense. It is difficult to score on damage, or even sub attempts though. You have no idea how much something hurts a guy or how close a submission is. Like Fedor's guillotine- it was not even a thought that he would submit from there. Its barely even possible, let alone against a top grappler like Arona. But if you are scoring attempts, you would have to give him credit... I like the bjj advantage system. An attempt is not as good as a point, but it counts if the guy has to defend it. It is still discretion though. I am a purist too though. I understand the need for time limits, but I am in favor of 1, 15 minute round, no standups. But if you want to talk about reality, Fedor would probably still be under that mount if there were no time limits or rounds.
Luke, we are never going to agree. I see your point and a lot of people agree with you. I just disagree and will continue to do so until my death.
^^^^^^you know in my last post I'm just messing with you right?
I'm in favor of 15 minute rounds until :someone is KO'd,submitted or throws in the towel
This shit of people gassing out in 1-2 rounds is a freaking disgrace and joke.They shouldnt even fight 3 round fights.
I am a purist too though. I understand the need for time limits, but I am in favor of 1, 15 minute round, no standups.
That would be boring as fuck.
All sports are entertainment businesses as well, and the rules reflect that. It's not just MMA.
MMA_scientist
04-30-2010, 11:17 PM
^^^^^^you know in my last post I'm just messing with you right?
yeah, i picked up on that.
Svino
04-30-2010, 11:20 PM
I want to get back to Fedor for a bit. First off - let me admit that I consider myself a Fedor fan, so start the shouts of bias now. You've gotta admit that the guys is a unique fighter, not just in terms of his record, but in fan response to him. He's just so unbelievably polarizing - I don't know how to begin to say whether he's overrated or underrated on the whole. Personally, I'd put him #2 for current P4P champ after GSP, but everyone's got a different idea of what P4P means anyway. I do know that there are a lot of things people try to slam Fedor with that I think are completely unfair.
Frankly this:
He was getting pummelled, he threw a haymaker with his head down, and Arlovski just happened to be jumping into him at the time.
is one example. I can honestly say as a Fedor fan watching that fight that I was not concerned at any point . Arlovski was landing a few more strikes (though not as many more as people seem to think), but he was not doing much damage. More importantly, he was clearly not fighting the kind of fight that would allow him to keep the whole match standing up, and I was confident of Fedor's advantage on the ground. Finally, as for the finish, let's take a look at it. I won't inline it, but it's one of the gifs on this page.:
http://www.mmaforum.com/affliction/5082 ... -pics.html (http://www.mmaforum.com/affliction/50824-arlovski-vs-fedor-slow-motion-pics.html)
I agree that Arlovski went in because he thought he had an advantage to press. Key word is thought. His mistake was trying to press home an advantage that existed mainly in his head. Fedor wasn't nearly as affected by the body shots and push-kick as Arlovski might have believed; he was controlling his bounce off the ropes to come back into Arlovski and time his punch. The other interesting about that finish is Fedor's left hand, not the right hand that ended the match. 1) Fedor had it positioned to block the knee. Arlovski's attack had been read and was going nowhere, even if he hadn't fallen asleep in midair. 2) Fedor followed the KO right with a fast swinging left that makes me think AA was very lucky to fall the way he did. We'd have had Arlovski's funeral if both connected. MMA may be more like poker most of the time, but that moment was chess, and Fedor was like Garry Kasparov playing against one of those dumb kids who used to show up at chess club and say "No fair! You made two moves!" when you castle on them.
Also, to say an event is luck is to say it has no predictive power, but look at what happened in each of their next fights, and against a common opponent no less! AA found another way to let an opponent punch him hard in the chin, and Fedor found a hole in Roger's defence in the way he threw one of his punches, then waited for it, timed it, and ended the fight. Arlovski has a pattern of letting guys hit him - Fedor has a pattern of great fight instincts. The KO may not have been guaranteed, but it sure wasn't unlikely.
Yes, Fedor has been in some rough spots before, but I think you've got it backwards. People make a much bigger deal over Fedor's near losses than they do over anyone else's. It's only natural of course, with Fedor being Fedor. But he's the only fighter where you can get famous just by getting him in a little bit of trouble.
However, as far as your greater point goes, I absolutely agree that Fedor has been lucky. You don't need to watch any fights to know that. It is simply impossible to go 33-1 against good competition without luck. Just like it is impossible to go 16-0 in the NFL regular season without luck. (I don't think you can ever predict a team to better than 12-4 and even that is rare.) If that weren't the case, you would expect Fedor to be a 97% betting favorite against a "median Fedor opponent", which he certainly would not be. I'd say, like many dominant champs, he's maybe an 80% favorite against most challengers, and maybe 95% against a scrub pro-fighter?
In contrast, I admit to going "oh shit" when Rogers threw those GnP bombs down on Fedor. Still, Fedor won that round convincingly. He landed the biggest shots, had the takedowns, and submission attempts. The Sherdog guy that gave it to Rogers was on crack.
http://207.199.174.56/img/ZEIaJAwjra_2002894349033766821_rs.jpg
In contrast, I admit to going "oh shit" when Rogers threw those GnP bombs down on Fedor. Still, Fedor won that round convincingly. He landed the biggest shots, had the takedowns, and submission attempts. The Sherdog guy that gave it to Rogers was on crack.
I also scored round 1 for Fedor
I would say Fedor has been lucky too but I think alot of the "luck" is instinct.I've said before everyone gets in trouble its what you do when in trouble(panic or stay calm and think) that determines whether you win or lose
http://207.199.174.56/img/ZEIaJAwjra_2002894349033766821_rs.jpg
LOL I read it all but I've yet to read that novel you posted yesterday
LOL I read it all but I've yet to read that novel you posted yesterday
Me either.
I probably actually READ half of it and scanned the rest.
It was just too much. What the fuck was he thinking writing an article that long?
http://207.199.174.56/img/ZEIaJAwjra_2002894349033766821_rs.jpg
Cliffnotes :
Fedor never in trouble against AA
Fedor has been somewhat lucky to get 33-1
Fedor always has a great gameplan for the fighter he's fighting
LOL I read it all but I've yet to read that novel you posted yesterday
Me either.
I probably actually READ half of it and scanned the rest.
It was just too much. What the fuck was he thinking writing an article that long?
What I want to know is what the fuck were YOU thinking posting a long ass article that you were too lazy to read?
Cliffnotes :
Fedor never in trouble against AA
Fedor has been somewhat lucky to get 33-1
Fedor always has a great gameplan for the fighter he's fighting
Indeed. Well thank you, sir.
Svino
04-30-2010, 11:38 PM
Svino, I disagree. Mount is supposed to be a better offensive position, and thus its superiority in the positional hierarchy... but when there is little damage done by either fighter, positional dominance shows that fighter was in control.
I know a lot of people agree with that. There's a weird problem in that most people seem to think LnP is horribly boring and killing the sport, but people are also outraged if the guy who spends more time on top loses the decision. Makes it pretty hard to fix. I hate standups, but they're necessary. I've mused about a system where the ref could do the opposite to a fighter who was avoiding combat in the stand up game. "Stop! I'm going to restart you on the ground!" What I really hate is the 'saved by the bell' thing. I'd rather see the round ended not by the bell, but by the referee at some point of his choosing after the bell rings. Wait until there's a lull in the action.
Like Fedor's guillotine- it was not even a thought that he would submit from there.
Fedor used to love that guillotine. He would go for it constantly in RINGS.
But if you want to talk about reality, Fedor would probably still be under that mount if there were no time limits or rounds.
Gracie / Sakuraba was awesome, but there's no way the sport would survive if every fight were like that. And to think Saku went out and fought Igor after that - what a warrior.
I can tell that we're different in that you like to bet the same kinds of fights that you like to watch. For me, it's almost completely opposite. My favorite fights are submission showcases, and I like fights to finish. But as a bettor, I'm almost always on the control wrestler, and I like my guys to grind out decisions standing or on the feet.
What I want to know is what the fuck were YOU thinking posting a long ass article that you were too lazy to read?
Dude, I read a lot of it and scanned the rest, like I said. So I knew it was interesting.
Besides, I'm not the boxing fan around here. YOU ARE. So . . . yeah . . . sorry man, it was my bad for thinking of you.
Svino
04-30-2010, 11:40 PM
http://207.199.174.56/img/ZEIaJAwjra_2002894349033766821_rs.jpg
LOL. Fair enough. ::lmao::
I'd rather see the round ended not by the bell, but by the referee at some point of his choosing after the bell rings. Wait until there's a lull in the action.
That would be way too subjective and there's already too much of that in the judging.
Svino
04-30-2010, 11:52 PM
I'd rather see the round ended not by the bell, but by the referee at some point of his choosing after the bell rings. Wait until there's a lull in the action.
That would be way too subjective and there's already too much of that in the judging.
I see your point about subjectivity, but I think there still might be a way to do it without a lot of controversy. I didn't mean to wait until the kind of total freeze that would warrant a stand-up. Just don't break up a fight in the middle of a flurry or serious submission attempt.
I'd rather see the round ended not by the bell, but by the referee at some point of his choosing after the bell rings. Wait until there's a lull in the action.
That would be way too subjective and there's already too much of that in the judging.
I see your point about subjectivity, but I think there still might be a way to do it without a lot of controversy. I didn't mean to wait until the kind of total freeze that would warrant a stand-up. Just don't break up a fight in the middle of a flurry or serious submission attempt.
I just want knees on the ground and I'll be content with everything else.
I just want knees on the ground and I'll be content with everything else.
I'd like knees on the ground.
I just want knees on the ground and I'll be content with everything else.
I'd like knees on the ground.
/me waits patiently for the 'your mom' joke...
Svino
05-01-2010, 12:06 AM
I just want knees on the ground and I'll be content with everything else.
I'd like to think we could at least make upkicks to a downed opponent legal. And let's get rid of the stupid hand-on-the-ground loophole. And the 12-6 elbow rule. (I have to admit that I honestly can't even tell exactly what the elbow rule is.)
I'd be happy with no more 3 round fights
/me waits patiently for the 'your mom' joke...
LOL ::lmao::
/me waits patiently for the 'your mom' joke...
Naw man, I just want knees on the ground.
I just want knees on the ground and I'll be content with everything else.
I'd like to think we could at least make upkicks to a downed opponent legal. And let's get rid of the stupid hand-on-the-ground loophole. And the 12-6 elbow rule. (I have to admit that I honestly can't even tell exactly what the elbow rule is.)
Nobody knows what the fucking elbow rule is. It's retarded. I agree and hate all that shit you listed too, no reason for those ridiculous rules. While we're at it let's bring back stomps and soccer kicks and let's punish these guard floppers. When I see a fighter unnecessarily limited in his offensive options it just pisses me off. But I think knees on the ground is the biggie. I see a use for them in just about every single fight I watch. It completely changes the whole dynamic of the game.
/me waits patiently for the 'your mom' joke...
Naw man, I just want knees on the ground.
What took you so long? You in there snorting up the sugar bowl?
What took you so long? You in there snorting up the sugar bowl?
Shit, I wish. Instead I'm biting my fingernails hoping the Jazz win this game.
What took you so long? You in there snorting up the sugar bowl?
Shit, I wish. Instead I'm biting my fingernails hoping the Jazz win this game.
They're not showing it here. The Lakers are about to finish off the Thunder, Gasol just hit a last second shot for the lead.
EDIT: I lied, it's on the other ESPN.
What took you so long? You in there snorting up the sugar bowl?
Shit, I wish. Instead I'm biting my fingernails hoping the Jazz win this game.
I switched it to the end of LA-Oklahoma City
Screw LA [::finger::]
At least we agree on that. . .
Screw LA [::finger::]
How far you see them going?
Screw LA [::finger::]
How far you see them going?
They'll go to the finals again I think.Utah cant beat them ,SA cant either imo.The two that matchup the best with LA(Denver and Dallas) look to be going home early
I think so too. I think the Cavs can beat them if they can get past the Magic this year.
I think the Cavs can beat them if they can get past the Magic this year.
My thoughts also ::handshake::
Mr. IWS
05-01-2010, 10:21 AM
Just a side note; I am extremely intimidated by Svino when he logs on to the forum.
Just a side note; I am extremely intimidated by Svino when he logs on to the forum.
Me too.
Whenever I see his avatar I immediately get scared.
Just a side note; I am extremely intimidated by Svino when he logs on to the forum.
Want me to ban him boss?
Want me to ban him boss?
LOL
Svino
05-01-2010, 11:59 AM
Just a side note; I am extremely intimidated by Svino when he logs on to the forum.
::lmao:: Please don't be. I need people to tell me when I'm full of shit, which is often.
Mr. IWS
05-01-2010, 12:17 PM
I think Svino can throw out a math equation and at the same time, make fun of all our moms, and we wont even know it.
I think Svino can throw out a math equation and at the same time, make fun of all our moms, and we wont even know it.
Yeah, I'm sure it would be something like:
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/m308/projects/forseth/catenary_files/jpg/differential_equation.jpg
= your mom
M-1: Fedor already started to prepare for a fight June 26 in San Jose. We also reached agreement to include some of the fighters from M-1
Guess its the June 26th card not the LA one
Shane Del Rosario vs Ron Sparks going to be added to this card
Anyone realize this is on a Wednesday? How stupid is that?
Mr. IWS
05-05-2010, 08:41 AM
Anyone realize this is on a Wednesday? How stupid is that?
WTF! That is fuckin asinine.
Dana will be clowing Coker and Showtime fo sho.
Shane Del Rosario vs Ron Sparks going to be added to this card
Check that
Bobby Lashley is going to fight Ron Sparks
Thewiseman
05-26-2010, 02:05 PM
Zaromskis -145
Santos +115
Lashley -600
Sparks +400
Thinking of a play on Zaromskis and a very small play on Sparks. What do you guys think of the Zaromskis/Santos fight??
Mr. IWS
05-26-2010, 02:07 PM
Zaromski via Santos gassing out like Pudzilla.
Sparks is going to get busted down. I'm not high on Lashley or anything but Sparks is coming out of the Super Heavyweight division and cutting ALOT of weight to reach 265 here, what I've seen of him is he's really powerful as a striker but we all know Lashley isn't going to stand with him any longer than he absolutely has to. I see Lashley pounding this dude out in the second.
ManBoobKilla
05-26-2010, 02:14 PM
If i had bookmaker i would lay about 3U on zaromskis. I think he will destroy cyborg
MMA_scientist
05-26-2010, 02:21 PM
tossed down 5.58 on Lashley @ -600 for the parlay.
I think Zaromskis will win, but I won't bet it.
poopoo333
05-26-2010, 10:17 PM
Lashley is out with an injury.
Lashley is out with an injury.
Just saw he had a knee injury and is out
Also saw Tim Kennedy is fighting Trevor Prangley
Mr. IWS
05-27-2010, 08:28 AM
Lashley is out with an injury.
Cut his hand on the can he was crushing probably.
Charles Bennett out of this event
KJ Noons will now fight Conor Heun
Mr. IWS
06-14-2010, 02:40 PM
Is lashley off this card? He is still listed on BFO.
Is lashley off this card? He is still listed on BFO.
Far as I know he's been off the card .The latest promo poster doesnt have him on it
Is lashley off this card? He is still listed on BFO.
they finally removed it
KJ NOONS -435
Conor Heun +335
Tim Kennedy -145
Trevor Prangley +115
edman5555
06-15-2010, 01:04 PM
Conor Heun was a D3 wrestling qualifier at Ithica. Thats all i really know about him.
edman5555
06-15-2010, 01:06 PM
http://www.conorheun.com/bio
Wrestled a lot, trained bjj with eddie bravo
poopoo333
06-15-2010, 01:58 PM
Heun was beat on the feet by Gurgel. If it stays standing, Noons should win.
edman5555
06-15-2010, 03:53 PM
what about noons takedown D. Anyone know?
edman5555
06-15-2010, 04:07 PM
I'm taking Evangelista Santos and Tim Kennedy. What does everyone think about Renato Sobral Vs Robbie Lawler?
Mr. IWS
06-15-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm taking Evangelista Santos and Tim Kennedy. What does everyone think about Renato Sobral Vs Robbie Lawler?
No bet for me, but If I was, I would be on Babalu.
GL on your plays man.
Edman, you seen any recent picks of Cyborg? I just saw one, and I would not bet him with your money.
MMA_scientist
06-15-2010, 04:24 PM
Edman, you seen any recent picks of Cyborg? I just saw one, and I would not bet him with your money.
Agreed. Mariusz should win easy IMO.
MMA_scientist
06-15-2010, 04:38 PM
^^ no.
The little debate in the 115 thread reminded me of something very important. I built my bankroll betting pretty much strictly on fights where it was going to be a grappling match. Like the Askren/Hornbuckle fight- I know the battle. Then talking to you guys really reminded me of how I built my bankroll, and I have gotten away from that lately. So I am going back to only betting grappling matches. That is what I know, that is where my advantage over the betting public lies. I also think there are a lot fewer "flukes" in grappling-centric fights. My rule has always been that I do not bet on fights where I do not know what the battle is, and I do not bet on ultimate amatuer kickboxing.
So I am going back to that
So, no bet for me on Zaromskis/Santos since it will be a slugfest.
I am sure that was more info than you wanted, but... I like to hear my own voice.
edman5555
06-15-2010, 05:14 PM
Where are the pics?
Babalu by submission and Zaromskis by tko
The pic I saw was on Bloody Elbow under the comments section.
I've got 1.5u on Lawler. I'm banking on Babalu getting knocked out or at least outboxed for three rounds.
I don't see Lawler getting subbed.
I've got 1.5u on Lawler. I'm banking on Babalu getting knocked out or at least outboxed for three rounds.
I don't see Lawler getting subbed.
Lol. I totally see Lawlor getting subbed. I don't see Babalu getting knocked out. His last knockout loss was to Mousasi, but he was getting completely tooled on the ground. Lawlor can't do the same.
Lol. I totally see Lawlor getting subbed. I don't see Babalu getting knocked out. His last knockout loss was to Mousasi, but he was getting completely tooled on the ground. Lawlor can't do the same.
We shall see. I wouldn't be surprised, considering the curse which seems to follow me around when it comes to betting on non-UFC events. But for my sake, I hope you're wrong.
MMA_scientist
06-15-2010, 05:35 PM
Lawlor getting subbed seems very likely to me for about 3 minutes.
If Babalu was ever in shape, I would be all over him. But it has been a while since he has looked good.
My guess is Babalu gasses out about 4 minutes in and gets knocked out in the second.
If Babalu doesn't gas, he should win. But that won't happen, as he always gasses after one round.
MMA_scientist
06-15-2010, 05:40 PM
Babalu has the perfect style to beat him. He has takedowns and he has submissions. 3 of Lawlor's 4 losses have come by submission, and Babalu is maybe the best grappler he has ever faced, Shields and Trigg have takedowns as good or better though... But Babalu is also the largest fighter Lawlor has ever fought. Shields and Trigg should really be at 170, and have been for much of thier careers. Babalu has never fought less than 205, and has been at HW some. Him coming in at 195 could solve his gas tank issues.
Lawlor is going to win though, IMO.
Where are the pics?
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/6/15/1519788/strikeforce-los-angeles-weigh-in
Go to Bloody elbows write up of the fight and then go into the comments section. There is a picture of Cyborg training.
Svino
06-15-2010, 06:31 PM
I have a small bet on Lawlor. I see the battle coming down to Renato's takedowns vs. Lawlor's takedown defense, with a question mark on Sobral's stamina for good measure. I think the most likely outcome is that Lawlor wins by sprawl-and-brawl.
Lawlor/Babalu is one I'll be staying away from kthxbai ::lmao::
Lawlor/Babalu is one I'll be staying away from kthxbai ::lmao::
Is that english?
okay, thanks, bye
LOL I knew you'd know what that meant
Lawlor/Babalu is one I'll be staying away from kthxbai ::lmao::
Is that english?
Yep, but it might mean something in Thai. ::lmao::
At this point, I'd say Zaromskis is definitely worth a bet.
At this point, I'd say Zaromskis is definitely worth a bet.
at this point I'd say no he isnt ,less than a week ago he was -145 now he's -275 the line has moved way too much imo to take it now
I'm not betting that fight because I'm pretty sure Cyborg is going to gas out but I'm not sure enough to lay down near -300 on Zaromskis after the way Diaz beat him, he could still be shellshocked.
poopoo333
06-16-2010, 02:56 PM
0.5u Babalu @+115
0.25u Heun @+400
2.6u Marius @-260
Mr. IWS
06-16-2010, 03:57 PM
Dam, this shit wont be on till 11pm tonight. Fuck that. Ill catch these tommorow in my office.
Dam, this shit wont be on till 11pm tonight. Fuck that. Ill catch these tommorow in my office.
I'm about to fall alseep right now so if I dont take a nap sometime I'm not going to make it to see them either and I usually stay up till 1 or 2 am
Mr. IWS
06-16-2010, 04:12 PM
I usually go to bed around 11 during the week. I thought this shit was on at like 8 or 9.
I usually go to bed around 11 during the week. I thought this shit was on at like 8 or 9.
Its in LA so thats why its on at 11pm .They cant expect to fill the seats if they start it at 5pm local time .11pm here is 8pm there
Mr. IWS
06-16-2010, 04:17 PM
Man, fuck all them cats in LA. East coast bias FTW!
poopoo333
06-16-2010, 04:58 PM
Looks like I will be up late again tonight. At least I don't have class until 10am. I have homework to do tonight anyways haha
Looks like I will be up late again tonight. At least I don't have class until 10am. I have homework to do tonight anyways haha
Isn't it the summer?
poopoo333
06-16-2010, 05:01 PM
Looks like I will be up late again tonight. At least I don't have class until 10am. I have homework to do tonight anyways haha
Isn't it the summer?
Summer classes.
Summer classes.
Why?
Catching up or trying to be an overachiever?
Summer classes.
Summer classes blow ::thumbdown:: I only did them one quarter and they sucked
Thewiseman
06-16-2010, 05:05 PM
Lawler 1.4u to win 1u.
poopoo333
06-16-2010, 05:08 PM
Summer classes.
Why?
Catching up or trying to be an overachiever?
Um, I am kind of just trying to get some extra credits in so I can get my AA asap so I can transfer to a university. I am only taking one class at the school, and one is online. They end this week actually (tomorrow is my last day, and I have a final next Tuesday), and they started on May 18th so it's not like my whole summer is filled with school.
MMA_scientist
06-16-2010, 05:49 PM
thinking about Prangley @ +125
MMA_scientist
06-16-2010, 05:52 PM
.4u on Prangley
thinking about Prangley @ +125
Why Prangley?
MMA_scientist
06-16-2010, 06:37 PM
^^
I just think he will be too big and strong for Kennedy. He is a better wrestler and is very durable and [NOT]submission prone. I think he will gnp / wet blanket his way to a decision.
poopoo333
06-16-2010, 06:39 PM
thinking about Prangley @ +125
Why Prangley?
Not answering for Scientist, but I think Prangley will win what Scientist would call a "top control special", as long as Prangley doesn't gas.
I wish Zaromskis was cheaper. I'm pretty confident he's going to win but -260 is too high for an obviously flawed fighter.
Well, I feel the need to make a bet. Zaromskis isn't going to give me good enough return and Lawlor/Babalu has officially become a toss-up to me, so I think I will throw something on Prangley then.
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