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Barnett-‘Mondragon’ Australia Bout Scheduled for Impact FC, Not Strikeforce
Despite rampant rumblings that Strikeforce was headed to Australia, it is instead a new upstart promotion headed down under in July.
Word circulated Wednesday that the San Jose-based Strikeforce was preparing a July card in Australia that would feature a heavyweight bout between Josh Barnett and Brazilian brawler Geronimo "Mondragon" dos Santos. However, Sherdog.com has confirmed that this fight will happen but not under the Strikeforce banner. Instead, Barnett and dos Santos will meet up for new promotion Impact Fighting Championship.
"The confusion regarding Strikeforce was unfortunate. I in no way ever asserted that Impact FC has anything to do with Strikeforce,” said Impact FC co-owner and event organizer Thomas Huggins. “This all stemmed from confusion in an interview with Geronimo that was published on Tatame's website, which they and Geronimo quickly cleared up.
"It was never Geronimo's intention to cause the confusion. Hopefully Scott and the people over at Strikeforce weren't inconvenienced by it."
Brazilian site Tatame published an interview with dos Santos in which the Bahia native stated that he would meet Josh Barnett in Strikeforce in Australia in July. However, in a follow-up piece with the site later in the day, "Mondragon" said that he misspoke, and in fact that if he was victorious against Barnett, he expected to sign a deal with Strikeforce.
Huggins told Sherdog that the Barnett-dos Santos bout has been signed for the promotion's second card at the Brisbane Entertainment Center in Brisbane, Australia, on July 10. The promotion will debut July 3 with an event at Trusts Stadium in Auckland, New Zealand, and a third event is planned for July 18 at the Sydney Entertainment Center. This card will be offered live on pay-per-view in North America, and in addition to a live fight card, will include the best fights from the promotion's first two events.
Huggins also disclosed that the promotion is in talks with television networks in Brazil, the United Kingdom and Australia to broadcast its events internationally, but could not confirm the status of those negotiations at this time.
::handshake::
Ken Shamrock vs. Mark Coleman trying to be made for this card also
Ken Shamrock vs. Mark Coleman trying to be made for this card also
Very interesting.
Coleman should definitely win that one. Anyone who can beat Bonnar should be able to beat Shamrock. But GODDAMN Coleman looked old and worn out in his fight with Couture. I'm not sure what the hell happened there.
Ken Shamrock vs. Mark Coleman trying to be made for this card also
Very interesting.
Coleman should definitely win that one. Anyone who can beat Bonnar should be able to beat Shamrock. But GODDAMN Coleman looked old and worn out in his fight with Couture. I'm not sure what the hell happened there.
He was off the roids ::handshake::
My guess:
Sho Gun fight =no roids
Bonnar fight=roids
Couture fight =no roids
I still wish we had seen Coleman/Lesnar, like was originally planned way back in the day.
Fuck, that would've been a destruction.
Ken Shamrock vs. Mark Coleman trying to be made for this card also
Very interesting.
Coleman should definitely win that one. Anyone who can beat Bonnar should be able to beat Shamrock. But GODDAMN Coleman looked old and worn out in his fight with Couture. I'm not sure what the hell happened there.
He was off the roids ::handshake::
My guess:
Sho Gun fight =no roids
Bonnar fight=roids
Couture fight =no roids
That's some mighty fine trolling, I have to admit.
That's some mighty fine trolling, I have to admit.
Why is that trolling? He asked why he looked so gassed against Coleman and that was a legit reason why .Its known that when someone stops taking roids their stamina and strength goes way down .
Oh, you were serious.
Carry on then.
Mr. IWS
05-03-2010, 06:24 PM
Oh, you were serious.
Carry on then.
::lmao::
You should've just titled this thread, "I failed."
You should've just titled this thread, "I failed."
Your mom failed by not swallowing you
the Coleman-Shamrock fight is off .
Ken Shamrock will now fight Pedro Rizzo instead
FUCK!
I was genuinely looking forward to that fight.
Svino
05-13-2010, 12:55 PM
Rizzo -500?
BillyPilgrim
05-13-2010, 01:52 PM
Rizzo -500?
at least. Shamrock never was that good of a fighter. I always liked him, but he never did win any big fights.
at least. Shamrock never was that good of a fighter. I always liked him, but he never did win any big fights.
Well BillyPilgrim. . .
What about Bas, Maurice Smith, Kimo, and drawing Royce (a fight that pretty much everyone says he would've won had there been judging at the time)?
BillyPilgrim
05-13-2010, 02:15 PM
at least. Shamrock never was that good of a fighter. I always liked him, but he never did win any big fights.
Well BillyPilgrim. . .
What about Bas, Maurice Smith, Kimo, and drawing Royce (a fight that pretty much everyone says he would've won had there been judging at the time)?
I am pretty sure the Bas fight was fixed. Shamrock has never before hit a move that even resembled the smoothness of that kneebar, and he hasn't since. But even if it wasn't Bas didn't know shit about grappling when they fought.
Kimo? That's not impressive. I am pretty sure I could beat Kimo.
Drawing Royce, a man half his size (while juiced silly) does not impress me.
I forgot about the Maurice Smith win, that is a quality win.
Oh he also beat Severn, which is quality.
But he still isn't very good.
BillyPilgrim
05-13-2010, 02:17 PM
Well BillyPilgrim. . .
Don't get smart. That's my mother-flippin name now. My eyes have been opened. It's like when Cassius Clay became Muhammed Ali. Deal with it.
I am pretty sure the Bas fight was fixed. Shamrock has never before hit a move that even resembled the smoothness of that kneebar, and he hasn't since. But even if it wasn't Bas didn't know shit about grappling when they fought.
But he beat him twice. . .
Kimo? That's not impressive. I am pretty sure I could beat Kimo.
You have to understand these fights in context. Kimo was a quality win for the time. Kimo put a severe ass beating on Royce back in the day and he may very well have won that fight under todays system of rounds and judges. (Not weight classes obviously.)
Plus he has wins over a lot of guys who were considered high-level fighters back in that mid to late 90s MMA scene.
BillyPilgrim
05-13-2010, 02:33 PM
I am pretty sure the Bas fight was fixed. Shamrock has never before hit a move that even resembled the smoothness of that kneebar, and he hasn't since. But even if it wasn't Bas didn't know shit about grappling when they fought.
But he beat him twice. . .
Kimo? That's not impressive. I am pretty sure I could beat Kimo.
You have to understand these fights in context. Kimo was a quality win for the time. Kimo put a severe ass beating on Royce back in the day and he may very well have won that fight under todays system of rounds and judges. (Not weight classes obviously.)
Plus he has wins over a lot of guys who were considered high-level fighters back in that mid to late 90s MMA scene.
Well they don't let lightweights fight heavyweights in today's system. Royce was 170 soaking wet. Plus he got subbed in about 5 minutes, so it wouldnt have changed anything. Of course, they don't let you pull the hair anymore either. Sadly.
fine. Ken was great. But he would still get his assed whipped by Rizzo.
Rizzo -500?
at least. Shamrock never was that good of a fighter. I always liked him, but he never did win any big fights.
Agree with SPX here .Shamrock was the second best MMA fighter in the world when UFC started and could have beat Royce in alot of peoples eyes.
MMA_scientist
05-13-2010, 09:13 PM
well, Royce was only about the 10th best fighter in his own family...
Svino
05-13-2010, 09:39 PM
Whenever people talk about the most important fights in MMA history, I think one of the most neglected matches is the first Gracie / Shamrock fight.
It was essentially the first UFC fight between "reasonably competitive" fighters. As it happened, Gracie won relatively quickly, but Ken were just a little better prepared, you could imagine the fight going the other way - or lasting much much longer. And what would have happened to the UFC if it did, with Royce's legacy ending before it started? Would the Gracie family have pulled out of the organization earlier? Would they have tried harder to bring over Rickson? That fight did a lot to decide the path of MMA.
Whenever people talk about the most important fights in MMA history, I think one of the most neglected matches is the first Gracie / Shamrock fight.
It was essentially the first UFC fight between "reasonably competitive" fighters. As it happened, Gracie won relatively quickly, but Ken were just a little better prepared, you could imagine the fight going the other way - or lasting much much longer. And what would have happened to the UFC if it did, with Royce's legacy ending before it started? Would the Gracie family have pulled out of the organization earlier? Would they have tried harder to bring over Rickson? That fight did a lot to decide the path of MMA.
I agree had Shamrock won would everyone be training in Shootfighting today instead of BJJ ?
Mr. IWS
05-14-2010, 10:03 AM
looks like Daley and Karo are being added to this card.
MMA_scientist
05-14-2010, 10:06 AM
looks like Daley and Karo are being added to this card.
Karo!
I love Karo. Can't wait to see him back in action.
looks like Daley and Karo are being added to this card.
Damn, holy shit.
That's, uh, interesting for sure. . .
Mr. IWS
05-14-2010, 01:28 PM
Sauce for Daley
Paul Daley has been officially let go from his UFC contract for his sucker punch of Josh Koscheck following their UFC 113 clash Saturday night in Montreal, but the British fighter won't be unemployed long. CagePotato.com has learned that he will be fighting on the July 3 Impact Fighting Championships show at Trusts Stadium in Auckland, New Zealand.
Daley's management confirmed the news originally reported today by MMA Weekly that "Semtex" received his pink slip this morning and clarified that he will be fighting for the IFC at the upstart promotion's July 3 event.
In signing with the promotion, Daley will join fellow disgraced UFC castaways Josh Barnett (who will face Geronimo "Mondragon" Dos Santos) and Ken Shamrock (who will lock horns with Mark Coleman) on the IFC roster. Both Barnett and Shamrock will compete on the promotion's scheduled July 10 show in Brisbane, Australia.
Besides the July 3 and 10 shows, the IFC is also planning a third event that month on July 18 in Sydney. No participants have been announced for the card as of yet.
An opponent for Daley has yet-to-be decided, and it is unknown if the Auckland commission will observe any possible sanctions handed down to Daley by the Régie des Alcools des Courses et des Jeux (RACJ) in the wake of the incident at UFC 113.
Mr. IWS
05-14-2010, 02:34 PM
Sauce for Karo
Karo Parisyan is moving on with his fight career and will appear at Impact FC in Australia on July 10.
Parisyan today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com (http://www.mmajunkie.com)) that he has agreed to fight Brazilian Luis Dutra Jr. on the card Down Under. MMAjunkie.com reported earlier today that the former UFC welterweight's potential Strikeforce contract fell through.
"I [haven't] fought for a year-and-a-half, (so) it's exciting," Parisyan said. "Time to get on top again."
The Armenian-American fighter declined to comment on his Strikeforce negotiations other than to say the potential deal was a six-fight contract.
However, "The Heat" did say he is waiting on "other stuff" which could keep him active beyond his summer fight.
In his most recent appearance, Parisyan defeated Dong Hyun Kim by split decision at UFC 94 in January 2009. The win was later changed to a no-contest when a post-fight drug test revealed the presence of prescription painkillers. He was subsequently fined by the Nevada State Athletic Commission and ordered to pay a fine of $32,000.
The 27-year-old judoka was released by the UFC after he withdrew from a scheduled fight with Dustin Hazelett at UFC 106 this past November in Las Vegas. UFC president Dana White said the fighter would never fight in the promotion again.
In the months before his UFC 106 bout, Parisyan cut a deal with Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer to use his UFC bout purses to pay off the fine in installments.
It is unlikely the athletic commission which oversees July 10's event will withhold money from Parisyan's purse to pay the NSAC fine. Kizer today told MMAjunkie.com he is unlikely to pursue the debt unless the fighter competes in the U.S.
"We would appreciate it if he paid some of his fine, ... but I'm not holding my breath," Kizer said.
Parisyan (18-5) has a well-documented history with prescription drugs, and has admitted to using painkillers to treat a serious injury to his hamstring which he sustained in preparation for a welterweight title bout with Matt Hughes at UFC 56. Parisyan was forced to withdraw from that November 2005 fight, as well.
Impact just announced it will be Paul Daley-Daniel Acacio
That's not nearly as interesting as Daley-Karo.
Ben Mortimer -Karo Parisyan
these guys must be having a hard time selling tickets
5 days til Brisbane! 13 days til Sydney! Last minute special! All tix $55. Brisbane - ticketek.com.au Sydney
So here's the July 18th card:
Heavyweight bout: Ken Shamrock vs. Pedro Rizzo
Welterweight bout: Paul Daley vs. Daniel Acacio
Heavyweight bout: Bob Sapp vs. Soa Palelei
Middleweight bout: Paulo Filho vs. Denis Kang
Middleweight bout: Murilo Rua vs. Jeremy May
Middleweight bout: Murilo Bustamante vs. Jesse Taylor
Heavyweight bout: Peter Graham vs. Jim York
Light Heavyweight bout: Glover Teixeira vs. Marko Peseli
Lightweight bout: Richard Vaculik vs. Luke Hume
Welterweight bout: Shane Nix vs. Manuel Rodriguez
And heres the July 10th card:
Heavyweight bout: Josh Barnett vs. Geronimo dos Santos
Welterweight bout: Karo Parisyan vs. Ben Mortimer .
Welterweight bout: Carlos Newton vs. Brian Ebersole
Heavyweight bout: Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou vs. Joaquim Ferreira
Heavyweight bout: Jeff Monson vs. Brad Morris
Heavyweight bout: Ubiratan Lima Marinho vs. Felise Leniu
Middleweight bout: Dylan Andrews vs. Steven Kennedy
Lightweight bout: Jai Bradney vs. Thiago Meller
Filho vs Kang is the only fight out of all those I find interesting.
It's unfortunate, but Ken gets another L.
It's unfortunate, but Ken gets another L.
Who knows? Both guys are completely shot. I don't even want to watch it. The whole idea is depressing.
Who knows? Both guys are completely shot. I don't even want to watch it. The whole idea is depressing.
Rizzo did legitimately beat Monson less than a year ago, so he apparently still has some gas left in the tank. I definitely don't think Ken could've done that.
Svino
07-05-2010, 04:35 PM
It's unfortunate, but Ken gets another L.
Yes, he does. I think that will be brutal.
Is it just me, or could these fights have been a lot more interesting if they had matched better fighters together? How about Barnett vs. Lashley? Or Daley vs. Karo?
It's unfortunate, but Ken gets another L.
Yes, he does. I think that will be brutal.
Is it just me, or could these fights have been a lot more interesting if they had matched better fighters together? How about Barnett vs. Lashley? Or Daley vs. Karo?
Agreed. I don't need to see Karo and Daley squash cans.
MMA_scientist
07-06-2010, 09:24 AM
Karo needs a warm up though. He has been on the shelf a long time.
Rizzo is going to kill Ken.
Some decent stuff to keep us busy until August, we need some filler.
Some decent stuff to keep us busy until August, we need some filler.
Roxy Modaferri v. Sarah Kaufman for the Strikeforce women's WW title coming up on July 23.
Forgot this shit was on last night too
Barnett beat Brazilian heavyweight Geronimo "Mondragon" Dos Santos, a fighter who had built up a little bit of hype by beating UFC vet Assuerio Silva last October, although he'd gone 3-3 since that fight -- before losing to Barnett. Barnett won via TKO from the mounted position at 2:45 of the first round.
Parisyan struggled with Ben Mortimer before getting a rear naked choke in the second round. After the fight, Karo said he'd never been hit as hard before.
Other well known fighters on the card picked up wins as well, including Sokoudjou who beat Joaquim Ferreira (the owner of the only win over UFC heavyweight title contender Junior Dos Santos) in the first round. Jeff Monson took a decision over Bira Lima and Brian Ebersole beat Carlos Newton via decision.
Bob Sapp off the card
It looks like Australia isn't on "Sapp time."
Gargantuan heavyweight and entertainment personality Bob Sapp (11-6-1) today told MMAjunkie.com (http://www.mmajunkie.com) that he has been pulled from a fight with Soa Palelei (9-2) at "Impact FC 2: The Uprising - Sydney."
Sapp, who is currently in Bulgaria after recently completing work on a remake of "Conan the Barbarian," said he received an email today from the Australian MMA startup informing him that the promotion would not fly him to Sydney for the July 18 fight because the plane ticket is too expensive.
"Just like that," Sapp said.
Impact FC formally emerged this past month with an ambitious plan to hold three MMA events packed with well-known veterans on three consecutive Saturdays. The first event took place this past Saturday in Brisbane and featured Josh Barnett, Rameau Thierry Sokodjou, Jeff Monson and Karo Parisyan.
Sapp was set to join several marquee fighters on the July 18 event, which is headlined by UFC veterans Ken Shamrock and Pedro Rizzo.
The 6-foot-5, 350-pound fighter said he had assembled a training camp in Bulgaria to prepare for the bout and spent at least $10,000 on coaches, training partners, and living expenses.
"We had all the paperwork completed," Sapp said.
At the same time, Sapp wasn't shocked by the last-minute cancellation and speculated the promotion's ambitious schedule might be at fault. In the past, he required promoters to put his fight purses in an escrow account before he signed on the dotted line. This time, he didn't.
"That's why they used the loophole, and that's why they jumped," Sapp said.
Impact's promoter, Tom Huggins, could not be reached for comment on the situation. It's unknown whether Palelei will fight on Sunday.
The heavyweight said his team plans to draft a formal letter to the promotion asking for reimbursement of his expenses. If that fails, he may take legal action.
"I'm not going to allow anybody to screw me over," Sapp said.
Sapp has fought the bulk of his bouts in Japan, where his oversized physique and persona have made him a star. This past October, he was defeated by Sokodjou in the semifinal of DREAM's "Super Hulk Tournament."
Most recently, he reversed a three-fight slide with a win over Sascha Weinpolter at K-1 ColliZion 2010 in Croatia.
But today's experience left a bitter taste in his mouth.
poopoo333
07-14-2010, 11:30 PM
That's unfortunate, I was really looking forward to him moving up the p4p rankings.
Mr. IWS
07-15-2010, 09:06 AM
That's unfortunate, I was really looking forward to him moving up the p4p rankings.
::lmao::
That's unfortunate, I was really looking forward to him moving up the p4p rankings.
::thumbup::
::lolzorz:: Sapp
Svino
07-17-2010, 10:45 PM
Murilo might want to call it a career. He looked kinda weak against a guy who was 7-6 in small promotions.
Murilo might want to call it a career. He looked kinda weak against a guy who was 7-6 in small promotions.
I saw it but I'm watching boxing so I probably wont tune back in till the Daley fight
Svino
07-17-2010, 11:11 PM
Kang / Filho was a good fight; lots of back-and-forth on the ground. I can't argue with the decision either.
Kang / Filho was a good fight; lots of back-and-forth on the ground. I can't argue with the decision either.
I missed that fight. Boxings over I'm watching now
Daley looked just ok imo. I hope Rizzo destroys Shamrock and I think he will
Svino
07-18-2010, 12:30 AM
Daley looked just ok imo. I hope Rizzo destroys Shamrock and I think he will
Yeah, that was predictable. And verbal tapouts seem to be the thing to do tonight.
::lmao:: lol Shamrock is a joke
Ken hasnt won a meaningful fight since 1995
::lolzorz:: the worlds most dangerous man
Yeah, that was predictable. And verbal tapouts seem to be the thing to do tonight.
This card was a joke the fights I seen.
::lolzorz:: verbal tapouts
Ken gave up as soon as he knew he couldnt win
I wonder why no one had odds on this card?
Svino
07-18-2010, 12:46 AM
Ken gave up as soon as he knew he couldnt win
I think Ken needs to drop down to fighting guys on the Herschel walker - Jose Canseco level.
Svino
07-18-2010, 01:30 AM
According to Jordan Breen
Ken Shamrock is currently in the middle of filming a Christian documentary about his life and career. The triumphant ending is supposed to be his win over Pedro Rizzo, showing what happens when you give yourself over to Christ.
::lmao::
Maybe that relates to the "Jesus Didn't Tap" sponsor logo in the center of the cage.
According to Jordan Breen
Ken Shamrock is currently in the middle of filming a Christian documentary about his life and career. The triumphant ending is supposed to be his win over Pedro Rizzo, showing what happens when you give yourself over to Christ.
::lmao::
Maybe that relates to the "Jesus Didn't Tap" sponsor logo in the center of the cage.
::lmao:: good find svino
Anything good happen on this card?
I went and watched a local show. Blood and Sand VIII, headlined by TUF 10 loser Justin Wren!! Woo-hooo
Svino
07-18-2010, 02:07 AM
Anything good happen on this card?
I went and watched a local show. Blood and Sand VIII, headlined by TUF 10 loser Justin Wren!! Woo-hooo
It was OK, I guess. Would have been more entertaining if I could have bet on it.
Pros:
• The organizers did a good job of keeping things moving; one fight after another without a lot of gabby downtime.
• The Filho vs. Kang fight, which was probably the most significant on the card, was pretty good if you like watching ground fights. And there will probably be a rematch.
• A judge actually called a relevant 10-10 round.
• Daley vs. Acacio wasn't too bad either, but it might have been a disappointment if you were hoping for Daley to be super-impressive.
Anything good happen on this card?
I went and watched a local show. Blood and Sand VIII, headlined by TUF 10 loser Justin Wren!! Woo-hooo
Who won?
Wren's a cool guy and I heard he may either be going back to the UFC or going to Japan.
Anything good happen on this card?
I went and watched a local show. Blood and Sand VIII, headlined by TUF 10 loser Justin Wren!! Woo-hooo
I didnt see every fight . Like svino said they kept shit moving .I liked seeing Shamrock quit.It wasnt great but it wasnt horrible either
I watched it. For what it was it was a very entertaining card. Even the Super Heavyweight fight was good, especially that figure four armlock at the end. Filho's fight was easily the best fight on the card though.
Anything good happen on this card?
I went and watched a local show. Blood and Sand VIII, headlined by TUF 10 loser Justin Wren!! Woo-hooo
It was OK, I guess. Would have been more entertaining if I could have bet on it.
Pros:
• The organizers did a good job of keeping things moving; one fight after another without a lot of gabby downtime.
• The Filho vs. Kang fight, which was probably the most significant on the card, was pretty good if you like watching ground fights. And there will probably be a rematch.
• A judge actually called a relevant 10-10 round.
• Daley vs. Acacio wasn't too bad either, but it might have been a disappointment if you were hoping for Daley to be super-impressive.
Thanks. I'm downloading the event now so I'll skip through it.
SPX, Wren won. It was a terrible fight (as most low-level HW fights are). Wren's go-to move was to rush in with punches and clinch along the cage. The other fat guy kept kicking him in the nuts and he took the whole damn 5 minutes one time to recover. Finally at the end of the 2nd Wren managed to take him down and took his back, flattened him out, and choked him out in like 3 seconds, right before the bell.
I can't say he looked great though. He was winning, but this sloppy horrid was tagging him quite a bit.
SPX, Wren won. It was a terrible fight (as most low-level HW fights are). Wren's go-to move was to rush in with punches and clinch along the cage. The other fat guy kept kicking him in the nuts and he took the whole damn 5 minutes one time to recover. Finally at the end of the 2nd Wren managed to take him down and took his back, flattened him out, and choked him out in like 3 seconds, right before the bell.
I can't say he looked great though. He was winning, but this sloppy horrid was tagging him quite a bit.
Thanks. I can't say I'm a big fan of his fighting style, but he's a hell of a nice and down-to-earth guy so I'm glad to see him get the W.
Oh man, Shamrock saying "as long as people keep paying to see me I'll keep gettin beat up" made me a sad panda.
Oh man, Shamrock saying "as long as people keep paying to see me I'll keep gettin beat up" made me a sad panda.
Why does Shamrock suck so badly now? You can't say he was never good. You can maybe say he was never great, but there was an era when he was certainly among the best. He's old now, but it seems he could at least still hang with other old guys.
I want Shamrock/Royce III. Seriously.
Oh man, Shamrock saying "as long as people keep paying to see me I'll keep gettin beat up" made me a sad panda.
Why does Shamrock suck so badly now? You can't say he was never good. You can maybe say he was never great, but there was an era when he was certainly among the best. He's old now, but it seems he could at least still hang with other old guys.
I want Shamrock/Royce III. Seriously.
You're a sadist man!
It's sad that Ken is a 46 year old pioneer of the sport who should be comfortably retired but is instead broke and in huge debt and has to continue getting his ass beat for meager paydays.
You're a sadist man!
It's sad that Ken is a 46 year old pioneer of the sport who should be comfortably retired but is instead broke and in huge debt and has to continue getting his ass beat for meager paydays.
Dude, surely Shamrock could kick Royce's ass. In the 10+ years since their last fight, I would have to believe that Shamrock has figured out how to avoid those same tired submissions and it's not like Royce is going to knock him out.
Besides, that still doesn't explain why Ken sucks so badly now.
Mr. IWS
07-19-2010, 03:05 PM
Sapp vs. Shammy to see who can verbal tap the fastest?
You're a sadist man!
It's sad that Ken is a 46 year old pioneer of the sport who should be comfortably retired but is instead broke and in huge debt and has to continue getting his ass beat for meager paydays.
Dude, surely Shamrock could kick Royce's ass. In the 10+ years since their last fight, I would have to believe that Shamrock has figured out how to avoid those same tired submissions and it's not like Royce is going to knock him out.
Besides, that still doesn't explain why Ken sucks so badly now.
Because he's fucking old and has been getting beat up for 17 years?
You can forget about that pipe dream btw. Ken is broke and Royce is ridin clean on 24" chrome with gold teeth.
Sapp vs. Shammy to see who can verbal tap the fastest?
Hey, Ken Shamrock never quits. Unless you kick him in the leg a bunch of times.
Oh man, Shamrock saying "as long as people keep paying to see me I'll keep gettin beat up" made me a sad panda.
Why does Shamrock suck so badly now? You can't say he was never good. You can maybe say he was never great, but there was an era when he was certainly among the best. He's old now, but it seems he could at least still hang with other old guys.
I want Shamrock/Royce III. Seriously.
Ken lost his edge when he went to the WWE .He didnt train or fight for 4 years. When he came back he wasnt the same fighter and instead of growing as a fighter like other people did in those 4 years he was way behind in skills by then
It's sad that Ken is a 46 year old pioneer of the sport who should be comfortably retired but is instead broke and in huge debt and has to continue getting his ass beat for meager paydays.
My questions is why is he broke? Why doesnt someone like him have 10 gyms to train people that he's making a ton off of?
He's old now, but it seems he could at least still hang with other old guys.
Good old SPX thinks everyone still has it in them to keep fighting .
It's sad that Ken is a 46 year old pioneer of the sport who should be comfortably retired but is instead broke and in huge debt and has to continue getting his ass beat for meager paydays.
My questions is why is he broke? Why doesnt someone like him have 10 gyms to train people that he's making a ton off of?
Because he makes bad decisions and burns bridges.
Because he makes bad decisions and burns bridges.
ok then .If he's stupid I dont feel sorry for him
Mr. IWS
07-19-2010, 03:47 PM
That idiot sued the UFC, lost, and now has to pay all the legal fees. Shit like that, like zY said, is why he is broke. Frank probably was laughing his ass off watching those leg kicks get buried into his thighs.
Good old SPX thinks everyone still has it in them to keep fighting .
It's true. I'm a persistent believer.
But if someone gives me good reasons, I'll listen. But "he's old" doesn't work, when I specifically said that he should be able to hang with other old guys, i.e. guys who have had to deal with the same general decline in skills and abilities.
MMA_scientist
07-19-2010, 05:11 PM
I think Royce would beat Ken at this point. Hell it was close back when Ken was a roided up 220#. Royce has not battered his body in the same way and he just beat Sakuraba (though Royce was roided up for that one) a few years ago.
Ken is not competive with any top 100 fighter. Other old guys at his weight like Coleman and Couture would murder him. Ken was never that good IMO, and what he did have was based on a lot of physical attributes. As evidenced by his coaching stint on TUF, he really doesn't know how to train properly either. Now that his strength has faded, he is just some guy that doesn't know how to train and lacks the speed or power to do anything.
On some level, I feel bad for him, but at the same time, he has tried to exploit his status as a pioneer a lot... I remember a few years ago he did this whole Jesus wants me to win thing too. Personally I feel like he manipulates the Jesus crowd with his minor celebrity status for money. It only comes up when he is on hard times. You didn't hear a lot of Jesus talk when he was getting his payday on TUF (although his 1st Jesus run was prior to TUF IIRC).
This may be the asshole in me talking, but I would actually like to see him take a few more beatings for all the stupid crap he says. Like mentioned, the guy has burned bridges everywhere. Even with Frank. At some point, its you.
To say he was never that good is pretty far off base. There wasn't a single person on the planet in 1995-1996 who you could without any bias say for a fact "he would beat Ken no problem". Yet he battered the fuck out of guys in the early days. Dude beat the fuck out of Royce for 36 minutes after he went and learned a ground game in Pancrase, Choked out Dan Severn in under 3 minutes, broke both Don Frye's ankles and fucked up one of his knee's, and beat Masakatsu Funaki twice. Those are just off the top of My head.
^^^ Yeah, in the early days of MMA Ken was a top fighter. That's just the way it is. He may not have been best, but he was among the best.
I think that if Ken had called it quits before he went to the WWE and had never come back to MMA then no one would really question his legacy.
In his heyday he could give anyone on the planet a good fight and on his best day he could have beaten any of them.
In his heyday he could give anyone on the planet a good fight and on his best day he could have beaten any of them.
He beat Bas x 2, gotta remember that as well.
MMA_scientist
07-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Wer have had this discussion before. He had some nice wins early in his career, but I just don't think he was a very good fighter.
Royce was a WW. Ken was a HW. He lost that fight you are talking about to Frye. Severn also beat Ken in the rematch, and I think Ken fluked out in that fight anyway.
He beat a lot of guys in Pancrase, which is not really mma. Actually, Pancrase is like real (alledgedly) WWE. You are not allowed to hit guys in the face with a closed fist. If you put them in a submission, you can crawl to the ropes and the ref will break it. There is a standing 10 count for knock downs. It really should not be counted as MMA wins. In fact, Pancrase 1 was called "yes we are hybrid wrestlers" but it was alot of guys with not grappling like Maurice Smith and Bad Rutten. His first real MMA fight was against Royce. He did not do so hot in real MMA.
Dan didn't beat shit in the rematch. They weren't allowed to shoot or throw closed hand strikes. Severn won that decision because it was held in Detroit.
MMA_scientist
07-19-2010, 05:59 PM
Dan didn't beat shit in the rematch. They weren't allowed to shoot or throw closed hand strikes. Severn won that decision because it was held in Detroit.
Yet you count those wins for Shamrock in Pancrase... which is even more watered down. Besides, Shammy was throwing punches sporadically through that fight.
I like how you completely ignored the majority of the post because it presents actual facts that don't work with your theory.
If we are talking conspiracy theories, it is well known that many Pancrase fights were fixed.
To say he was never that good is pretty far off base. There wasn't a single person on the planet in 1995-1996 who you could without any bias say for a fact "he would beat Ken no problem". Yet he battered the fuck out of guys in the early days. Dude beat the fuck out of Royce for 36 minutes after he went and learned a ground game in Pancrase, Choked out Dan Severn in under 3 minutes, broke both Don Frye's ankles and fucked up one of his knee's, and beat Masakatsu Funaki twice. Those are just off the top of My head.
Ken hasnt won a single fight since 1995 that has mattered so 1995-1996 is wrong ,I think your thinking 1994-1995 .Of course thats wrong too .He didnt beat Funaki twice he lost once ,one once. He didnt beat Don Fyre and he lost to Minori Suzuki ( who??) twice in his "prime"
Ken was never that good . His whole claim to fame was getting a draw against Royce who he out weighed by 50 pounds .Thats like putting Cain and Rashad in the octagon together .
Sure Ken was there from the begining but he was never that good .Now Frank, thats a different story and a Shamrock that was good at one time
MMA_scientist
07-19-2010, 06:04 PM
PANCRASE IS NOT MMA.
PANCRASE IS NOT MMA.
It's similar enough that you have to consider Pancrase bouts when discussing a fighter's skill.
I never said Pancrase didn't have it's share of the theatrical. But thats japan for you. There isn't a single japanese fight promotion to date that doesn't have a heavy interest in theatrics. Pride had it, Dream has it, K-1 has/had it, and the next Japanese promotion to make it the lime light will have it. But between those rope breaks and non closed hand punches was real grappling skill, that much cannot be denied.I don't think you can totally discredit Pancrase for a fighter because behind the rope breaks and posturing it is true to form in the regard that many fighters have gone there to learn a ground game and come out better for it. Also, How can you disregard Pancrase when so many names that have gone on to do a great many things in MMA have come along through Pancrase before hand? Guys like Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Kazou Misaki, Akihiri Gono, Nate Marquardt, Vernon White, Jake Shields, Semmy Schilt, Ron Waterman, Pete Williams, Guy Mezger, etc etc etc. How is it Ken went there after getting choked out by Royce in under two minutes and then survived thirty six minutes against him less than a year and a half later if Pancrase is totally fake? How do these accomplished grapplers like Shields, Mezger, Ken, Frank, and Marquardt all become products of the same place while that place is/was/always will be a complete joke? Don't hate.
He fought Funaki three times, Luke, and won two of those. I never said he beat Frye, I said he broke his ankles, and he dealt more damage to Frye than anyone had since Mark Coleman. Winning fights at the current time isn't the measuring stick of caliber in a fighter since it's all based on current time. In 1995 and 1996 you couldn't with a straight face say "so and so would beat Ken Shamrocks ass". Upon coming back from the WWE he was a shell of his former self. Same goes for Tito. Until he lost to Randy and Chuck he was a world beater in the 205lb division. Back when he was beating Wanderlei, Vitor, Matsushenko, etc etc etc.
Svino
07-19-2010, 06:35 PM
Ken hasnt won a single fight since 1995 that has mattered so 1995-1996 is wrong ,I think your thinking 1994-1995 .
Well, to be fair, Kimo (who he beat in 1996) was actually well-regarded at the time.
Well, to be fair, Kimo (who he beat in 1996) was actually well-regarded at the time.
::lolzorz:: Kimo lolz
I said a good fighter
::lolzorz:: Kimo lolz
I said a good fighter
Kimo was considered good at the time. That's his point.
If you haven't noticed, none of the guys from that era can hang with today's fighters.
Ken beat Kimo again in 2006.
If you haven't noticed, none of the guys from that era can hang with today's fighters.
You're wrong
Couture,Silva ,Belfort can all "still hang"
Shamrock wouldnt have beaten any of the above three in 1997 , 2007 or now .
He would have also never beat Ortiz(already proved that), Sakuraba,or Coleman imo.
Its amazing how he never fought any or these guys except Ortiz and got his ass beat 3 times by him .
Being considered good "back then" doesnt mean you really were .I mean come on "back then" Maurice Smith was UFC champ with a 5-7 record
I mean who did Kimo beat ?
Tank Abott lol that about it
Ken beat Kimo again in 2006.
lol @ you guys for thinking Kimo was good
^^Ken was knocked out by Sakuraba too.
Ken beat Kimo again in 2006.
lol @ you guys for thinking Kimo was good
You kiddin me? Dude made Royce drop out of the tournament. He's also dead. Show some respect homie.
^^Ken was knocked out by Sakuraba too.
Damn never realized that. Nice catch ::handshake::
I guess it proves my point though
You kiddin me? Dude made Royce drop out of the tournament. He's also dead. Show some respect homie.
Dead ? Are you freaking retarded ?
Bob Sapp beat Kimo too is he an all time great too ?
And Royce was gassed from fighting Kimo because the guy outweighed him by a half ton
Give me someone Kimo beat to make him a legit fighter? Just saying he was good doesnt mean anything
http://www.inquisitr.com/29889/ufc-vete ... d-aged-41/ (http://www.inquisitr.com/29889/ufc-veteran-kimo-leopoldo-dead-aged-41/)
RIP
Uh, that was later found to be false, zY. Kimo's manager came out like a week later and said not only is Kimo alive and well but was training as he spoke.
W/e man, everyone knows he died of a drug OD.
http://www.inquisitr.com/29889/ufc-veteran-kimo-leopoldo-dead-aged-41/
RIP
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
I thought you were joking at first .Now that I know you werent its even funnier
W/e man, everyone knows he died of a drug OD.
Everyone at sherdog
I got to admit that cracked me up
here you go Zy ::handshake::
http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=4347417
http://mmajunkie.com/news/15591/video-k ... eports.mma (http://mmajunkie.com/news/15591/video-kim-kimo-leopoldo-speaks-to-and-chastises-the-media-for-death-reports.mma)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/zygote7/trollface.jpg
someone make that for you down at the boardwalk or some shit? It looks like a fried egg meets the Joker.
You're wrong
Couture,Silva ,Belfort can all "still hang"
I see those guys as the next generation. I mean, Belfort and Couture made their debuts in 1996 and 1997, respectively. That's 3 to 4 years after UFC 1, which I know doesn't sound like a lot of time, but the sport made some pretty big leaps during that period. The guys who were in, like, UFCs 1-5 were really having to feel their way through this whole thing. These were the guys who had to figure out that one style won't do it and that you need both striking and grappling skills, as well as just what the fuck BJJ is about.
By the time Couture, Silva and Belfort got into it, we were already at MMA version 2.0.
As for who Kimo beat, Pat Smith and Paul Varelans were both among the more "respected" guys early on. And as for that ass whipping that Kimo was laying on Royce before he got submitted, and him outweighing Royce, yeah, sure he outweighed him, but it's still an accomplishment considering that EVERYONE outweighed Royce at that point and no one else had done that up to that point.
Svino
07-20-2010, 04:41 AM
I see those guys as the next generation. I mean, Belfort and Couture made their debuts in 1996 and 1997, respectively.
As for who Kimo beat, Pat Smith and Paul Varelans were both among the more "respected" guys early on.
Yeah, that's kind of how I see it, too. I certainly wouldn't say Kimo was a "good fighter" in any absolute sense, but Shamrock's fight with Kimo was actually a defense of his Superfight championship. Really the closest thing the UFC had to a title belt at the time. The scene changes dramatically soon afterwards: Coleman, Couture, Belfort, and Kerr were about to enter the picture. I thought Coleman was going to be invincible when I first saw him. Then I thought Belfort was going to be invincible. Crazy times.
MMA_scientist
07-20-2010, 09:13 AM
You can say that Ken was one of the better guys to be invited to the original UFCs. But I think you guys are putting way too much stock on who happened to be invited to UFC 1-4. The Gracie family handpicked all of these guys to showcase their art. They handpicked Royce, even though he was way down the ladder in terms of skill, because he was small and weak with no real special attributes. He was an everyman and GJJ is about the smaller weaker man using leverage to beat the bigger man. So the fact that Ken happened to be invited had nothing to do with his skill except that they knew Royce would beat him. Same thing with Kimo, Severn, Pat Smith and anyone else in the very first class of UFC fighters.
But to say this somehow made them the best fighters, that's just wrong. They were the guys that got invited for whatever reason to help showcase GJJ.
Vale Tudo had been going on in Brazil in pretty much its current form in Brazil since the 60's. There were tons of guys that fought vale tudo in Brazil, including americans, that knew what fighting was about. They knew the ground and the striking. There were a ton of guys that would have whipped Royce's and Ken's asses easily.
Like you, I didn't know any of this at the time, so I though Royce was teh baddest man on the planet and Ken was the 2nd baddest man. Now that I know better, I see Ken for what he was: One onf the guys who happened to be invited to UFC 1, and a figure who helped popularize MMA. But he is not now, nor was he ever, a great or (even very good IMO) fighter.
MMA_scientist
07-20-2010, 09:35 AM
Awesome post by Justin Wren about and unknown Vale Tudo legend in the 60's with pics: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blond ... d-1278197/ (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blonde-devil-unknown-vale-tudo-legend-1278197/)
Awesome post by Justin Wren about and unknown Vale Tudo legend in the 60's with pics: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blond ... d-1278197/ (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blonde-devil-unknown-vale-tudo-legend-1278197/)
Dude, that shit's long, but I started it and will finish it by the end of the day. . .
Scientist:
You are no doubt right about Ken etc. not being "good fighters" on the global scale. But to be fair, we can only really compare them to other guys within their generation in what I guess we could call the "American" MMA scene. Also, I think our definitions of "good fighters" differs. Just like I don't like calling guys "cans" or "bums" unless they REALLY suck, I recognize that even the lowest level UFC fighters, both past and present, would beat the shit out of 95% of the people walking the earth. So I try to give respect to that. I mean, would YOU want to fuck with a mid-90s Shamrock, or Severn, or even Kimo for that matter? I would not.
When I think of the first handful of UFCs, this is what comes to mind. . .
Great Fighters
Royce
Ken
Guy Mezger
Severn
Taktarov
Good Fighters
Keith Hackney
Pat Smith
Gerard Gordeau (<-- guy has a ton of accolades)
Kimo
Steve Jennum
Guys like Frye and Marco Ruas would show up soon after. Then a little bit after that we'd get what I'd call the first wave of the "modern" MMA fighters in guys like Couture, Silva, Tito, and Belfort.
MMA_scientist
07-20-2010, 11:18 AM
Awesome post by Justin Wren about and unknown Vale Tudo legend in the 60's with pics: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blond ... d-1278197/ (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blonde-devil-unknown-vale-tudo-legend-1278197/)
Dude, that shit's long, but I started it and will finish it by the end of the day. . .
Next article in Ultimate MMA: "The Origins of Modern MMA." You can basically rehash our discussion here. I actually learned a lot trying to back up my position. Reading the Pancrase Wiki, I learned what shoot-wrestling is (pro wrestlers have shoots and works- shoots are spontaneous and unscripted moves, works are planned and choreographed). Pancrase was a event based on only shoots. Then on the other side of the world, Maeda brought judo to Brazil... challenge matches, Luta Livre, Vale Tudo, MMA. It really developed independently in Brazil and Japan, but pro wrestling was involved both places... its pretty interesting I think.
There are so many branches from that. You could talk about Maeda, Gotch, pro wrestling, judo, Helio... it could be series.
Make it happen.
MMA_scientist
07-20-2010, 11:25 AM
Scientist:
You are no doubt right about Ken etc. not being "good fighters" on the global scale. But to be fair, we can only really compare them to other guys within their generation in what I guess we could call the "American" MMA scene..
I prefer to call them pioneers. They were the first so they credit. They just happened to be fighting in a very small pond. They have a place in history, and Ken was one of the better guys in the early UFC's I will definitely give that point up. I think Ken was the #2 guy until the guys that watched UFC 1-4 and realized they could beat these guys showed up.
.
Like you, I didn't know any of this at the time, so I though Royce was teh baddest man on the planet and Ken was the 2nd baddest man. Now that I know better, I see Ken for what he was: One onf the guys who happened to be invited to UFC 1, and a figure who helped popularize MMA. But he is not now, nor was he ever, a great or (even very good IMO) fighter.
+1
Next article in Ultimate MMA: "The Origins of Modern MMA." You can basically rehash our discussion here. I actually learned a lot trying to back up my position. Reading the Pancrase Wiki, I learned what shoot-wrestling is (pro wrestlers have shoots and works- shoots are spontaneous and unscripted moves, works are planned and choreographed). Pancrase was a event based on only shoots. Then on the other side of the world, Maeda brought judo to Brazil... challenge matches, Luta Livre, Vale Tudo, MMA. It really developed independently in Brazil and Japan, but pro wrestling was involved both places... its pretty interesting I think.
There are so many branches from that. You could talk about Maeda, Gotch, pro wrestling, judo, Helio... it could be series.
Make it happen.
I actually wouldn't mind doing that. The biggest problem would be the word count limitation. I could make it 2-part/2400 word piece maximum.
But in all seriousness, since you bring it up, it may be an idea that I consider pursuing.
Svino
07-21-2010, 01:53 AM
. So the fact that Ken happened to be invited had nothing to do with his skill except that they knew Royce would beat him. Same thing with Kimo, Severn, Pat Smith and anyone else in the very first class of UFC fighters.
I think that with a few exceptions, Davie and Rorion were genuinely trying to get the best fighters (in a mix of styles) for the tournament that they could. They were extremely confident that Royce could beat any classically-trained striker. Gordeau and Orlando Weit had good credentials in Savate and Muay Thai. Pat Smith had won the only major Kyokushin karate tournament in the US and had a good record as a kickboxer. Ken Shamrock was probably the most promising fighter (3-0) in the only other MMA-like organization in the world at the time. He wasn't just some noob brought in for Royce to beat, he was a good get.
They tried very hard to get a good boxer, but couldn't for much the same reason MMA still doesn't get them; they have their own pro sport that pays them too much money for them to go elsewhere. The major exception was with wrestlers. Rickson Gracie had recently had a grappling match with Mark Schultz that lasted 30 minutes. Rickson won, but reading between the lines, it seems he would have lost if they were striking. It was apparently enough for Rorion to decide big wrestlers were too tough to risk, which is why you didn't see them represented at all until UFC 4. Supposedly he also axed the idea to go after Karelin, and also discouraged them from letting in Taktarov (after UFC 3 I think).
But to say this somehow made them the best fighters, that's just wrong. They were the guys that got invited for whatever reason to help showcase GJJ.
I think that the successes of Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Randy Couture showed us that the elite HW college wrestlers of the day could mostly have come in and beat the crap out of the UFC 1-8 champs if they had felt like it. Maybe some of your large judo or jiu-jitsu guys could have as well. Outside of that class though, I'm not so sure.
I think Ken was the #2 guy until the guys that watched UFC 1-4 and realized they could beat these guys showed up.
I do agree with this though. I think that's fair.
Vale Tudo had been going on in Brazil in pretty much its current form in Brazil since the 60's. There were tons of guys that fought vale tudo in Brazil, including americans, that knew what fighting was about. They knew the ground and the striking. There were a ton of guys that would have whipped Royce's and Ken's asses easily.
Tons? Really? I don't think the level of competition in Vale-Tudo events was much above the early UFC events, if at all. A lot of the big names did come over to modern MMA, and their performance doesn't make me think they would have much on even a guy like Ken. Marco Ruas? - lost to Taktarov. Fabio Gurgel? - lost to Bohlander. Hugo Duarte? - lost to Tank. Amaury Bitetti? - Lost to Frye. Eugenio Tadeau, Wallid Ismail, Mestre Hulk - none of these guys were able do do much in post Vale-Tudo MMA. In 30 years, Vale-Tudo matches didn't manage to create the same appreciation for cross-training that the UFC did in maybe a dozen events, another sign that the competition wasn't that great.
That was an interesting post on Pereira. I had heard the name, but hadn't seen a 380-0 record given to him before. I'm always a little skeptical about records like that, but he still does sound like a badass.
I think you guys would really like Clyde Gentry's book, "No Holds Barred". It's basically a behind-the-scenes look at the early history of the UFC and MMA in general.
MMA_scientist
07-21-2010, 01:33 PM
I think that with a few exceptions, Davie and Rorion were genuinely trying to get the best fighters (in a mix of styles) for the tournament that they could. They were extremely confident that Royce could beat any classically-trained striker. Gordeau and Orlando Weit had good credentials in Savate and Muay Thai. Pat Smith had won the only major Kyokushin karate tournament in the US and had a good record as a kickboxer. Ken Shamrock was probably the most promising fighter (3-0) in the only other MMA-like organization in the world at the time. He wasn't just some noob brought in for Royce to beat, he was a good get.
I think they were trying to get the best fighters that they knew they would beat. Like you said, they knew they could beat any striker. But they did not let any strikers that even had an awareness of the ground in.
I think that the successes of Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Randy Couture showed us that the elite HW college wrestlers of the day could mostly have come in and beat the crap out of the UFC 1-8 champs if they had felt like it. Maybe some of your large judo or jiu-jitsu guys could have as well. Outside of that class though, I'm not so sure.
Yeah, but these guys all got the benefit of knowing that they needed to at least defend submissions. I think in UFC 1, Royce would have choked any and all of them unconscious. After they had the benefit of watching the style vs style matchups, they could cross train enough bjj to fend off submissions.
Tons? Really? I don't think the level of competition in Vale-Tudo events was much above the early UFC events, if at all. A lot of the big names did come over to modern MMA, and their performance doesn't make me think they would have much on even a guy like Ken. Marco Ruas? - lost to Taktarov. Fabio Gurgel? - lost to Bohlander. Hugo Duarte? - lost to Tank. Amaury Bitetti? - Lost to Frye. Eugenio Tadeau, Wallid Ismail, Mestre Hulk - none of these guys were able do do much in post Vale-Tudo MMA. In 30 years, Vale-Tudo matches didn't manage to create the same appreciation for cross-training that the UFC did in maybe a dozen events, another sign that the competition wasn't that great.
I think the difference between the Vale-Tudo guys and the very early UFC guys is that they at least were aware of jiu jitsu and the idea to sprawl and brawl had at least occured to them. Even Severn who was 260# wrestler did not think, "hey, why don't I just force Royce to trade punches with me? I do outweight him by almost 100 pounds..." Ken may have been in the same league with some of the Vale-Tudo guys to come up... but then again, Royce choked him out in less than a minute. No way Royce would have been able to handle Wallid. Maybe after Ken figured out that he should just try to stall he was slightly more dangerous, but he could nto "roll" with the bjj guys. If he moved too much, he would get subbed. He knew that and it was apparent in his 2nd fight with Royce. The Vale-Tudo guys like Ruas and Wallid had the advantage of being able to strike somewhat and being able to go move for move with a guy like Royce. The guys you mention that beat Ruas and Wallid are from the next generation of UFC guys.
Svino
07-21-2010, 08:58 PM
I think they were trying to get the best fighters that they knew they would beat. Like you said, they knew they could beat any striker. But they did not let any strikers that even had an awareness of the ground in.
Fair enough, but how quickly we forget that Harold Howard was also a "jiu-jitsu person". Seriously though, was there anyone around at the time who fit that criteria? A good striker who also had a good ground game? As opposed to strikers with just a bit of grappling that came with their ninja training, or wrestlers who tried to box a bit?
Yeah, but these guys all got the benefit of knowing that they needed to at least defend submissions. I think in UFC 1, Royce would have choked any and all of them unconscious. After they had the benefit of watching the style vs style matchups, they could cross train enough bjj to fend off submissions.
I don't know, they could have gotten caught, but I think the raw size and power difference might have been too much. I think Coleman could have finished Royce in those 14 minutes or whatever that Severn had. Or as you say, they might have tried to stand and box. I wonder how much those guys actually did train submission defense before they came in.
I think the difference between the Vale-Tudo guys and the very early UFC guys is that they at least were aware of jiu jitsu and the idea to sprawl and brawl had at least occured to them. Even Severn who was 260# wrestler did not think, "hey, why don't I just force Royce to trade punches with me?
Yeah, that did seem like a basic flaw in his planning. But his training partner Don Frye definitely had a sprawl-and-brawl like style. So did Tank Abbott, actually. Frye's boxing and Tank's wrestling weren't quite good enough for them to be viable 2nd-gen fighters, but the thought was there.
Ken may have been in the same league with some of the Vale-Tudo guys to come up... but then again, Royce choked him out in less than a minute. No way Royce would have been able to handle Wallid... Vale-Tudo guys like Ruas and Wallid had the advantage of being able to strike somewhat and being able to go move for move with a guy like Royce. The guys you mention that beat Ruas and Wallid are from the next generation of UFC guys.
I don't think much of Ruas, he was only ever able to beat the next-to-lowest rung of the early UFC. He lost to Taktarov, who was a decent fighter, but well within what I would call the 1st generation. (Taktarov drew Shamrock, lost twice to Severn, and barely beat Tank.) Ruas's later losses were both to guys that lost to Shamrock. I'm not sure at all that Ruas would have beaten Ken, Kimo, Tank, or Royce (who looked much better against Remco than Ruas did).
Wallid may have been a little better than I was giving him credit for, but still: his only UFC match was a loss to a guy that didn't even seem to be able to hold his own in Pancrase (multiple losses to Ken, Funaki, Vernon White, Jason Delucia).
I wish I could see more footage of the old Vale-Tudo matches. I don't know what precisely the weaknesses of most of those fighters were, but I'm convinced secondhand that the fighter market in mid 90's Brazil couldn't have been that good.
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 09:36 AM
I agree that it progressed quickly once it got on more television.
But Rickson fought Zulu in a televised NHB fight in 1980 when Rickson was 21. I mean this is televised "MMA" 13 years before UFC 1, strarring 2 guys that would beat Royce Gracie.
There were a lot of guys in Brazil that were bjj stylists or Judo guys, that could at least throw a punch. Then you had Russian guys like Oleg. I think Oleg would have given Royce a lot of trouble and maybe beaten him.
Royce was essentially just a grappler. I don't think he ever landed a meaningful strike standing in the early UFCs. I think Ruas would have beaten Royce.
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 09:49 AM
Wallid was fighting in 1991 as well. Wallid put Royce to sleep in a grappling match. Out cold. It was in 1998, but Wallid was fighting before Royce.
You had the guys from Gokor's group. Even Benny the Jet was supposed to figyt Royce... alledgedly the Gracie's backed out of the fight after they found out he was trained by Gokor.
I don't know, there were guys around. Maybe not tons, but there were better guys.
You had the guys from Gokor's group. Even Benny the Jet was supposed to figyt Royce... alledgedly the Gracie's backed out of the fight after they found out he was trained by Gokor.
BENNY THE JET!!!!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/101/312642735_702664b1c8.jpg
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 10:06 AM
Supposedly Benny the Jet could also grapple.
I have rolled with Gokor back in like 2001. I actually have a picture of my college "mma" club with Gokor, Karo, and Manvil. It was before Karo and Manny were in the UFC, and Manny looks like he is about 14.
Anyway, supposedly, Gracie's ducked Benny and Gokor.
If I was not a bjj gayist, I would have to admit Gokor > or = to Rickson.
Supposedly Benny the Jet could also grapple.
According to Wiki, "Urquidez has obtained black belts in nine styles: judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate."
And here's a picture of him with Gene LeBelle.
So I presume he had/has some pretty well-rounded skills.
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Supposedly Benny the Jet could also grapple.
According to Wiki, "Urquidez has obtained black belts in nine styles: judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate."
And here's a picture of him with Gene LeBelle.
So I presume he had/has some pretty well-rounded skills.
He made a DVD with Gokor, and at one time taught with Gokor. I think he was a real badass.
Suppedly Rickson choked Benny out. Then Royce wanted to fight him. That is where it gets murky. From Royce's wiki:
My brother had a big problem with one of the big American kickboxers. Somebody was going to do the commentary for the chapter and they called my brother, and asked if he wanted to face him. He said that he would face anyone in MMA. My brother had already faced and beat him before. He told them to ask him if they knew who he was facing as he should know who he was facing." Benny the Jet pretended he didn't know who the Gracies were, so they made a bet to put a $100,000 down each to fight for something. Benny the Jet later backed down on the bet and allegedly said he didn't want to put his money down and instead put his belt in place of the $100,000 and that if Royce Gracie won, he would become the World Champion in kickboxing.
However, there are contradictory versions of the challenge with American kickboxer Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. According to an interview with Urquidez, the Gracies came to his school and challenged him to a fight. Benny agreed to the fight under the Gracies' rules and asked for time to train and for the fight to be held at a neutral location. When the Gracies found out that Benny was a competent grappler and had been training for many years with grappling legend Gene LeBell and Gokor Chivichyan, they, allegedly, backed out of the fight.
Damn, forgot the picture. . .
http://www.missys.net/gallery/celebrities/gene_lebell_celebrities/fullsize/gene_lebell_benny_the_jet.jpg
Suppedly Rickson choked Benny out. Then Royce wanted to fight him. That is where it gets murky. From Royce's wiki:
Interesting story. One thing I can definitely believe is that the Gracies wanted to fight under "their" rules. They've always kind of been that way.
I know Benny's claim to fame is his kickboxing career, but apparently he fought in some MMA-like matches as well, at least according to some of what I've read this morning. There's talk on his website about him having competed in a "no holds barred" competition that sounds kind of like UFC 1, though I've never heard anything else about it:
He was soon sponsored by Elvis Presley and asked to fight as a member of the Los Angeles All Stars, the Chuck Norris United States Karate Team. It was literally the pinnacle of success, with nowhere left to go. Undaunted, however, instead of settling for what would be the end of the road for most, Sensei Benny turned away from professional boxing and instead accepted an offer to compete in Hawaii in the first ever World Series of Martial Arts World Championship. This meant that Sensei Benny - weighing in at only 145 pounds - would now be fighting in a no-holds-barred contest against challengers from all weight classes.
After fighting seven different opponents over two grueling days, Sensei Benny achieved the impossible: he defeated Challenger Dana Goodson, the 225 pound challenger for the World Championship title.
If that's true, especially the part about him only being 145 pounds, then that's pretty impressive.
He also fought Jackie Chan twice, which was undoubtedly his biggest test:
http://www.fasthack.com/images/weblog/2006/04/wheelsonmeals.jpg
http://www.asitecalledfred.com/intrigue/images/2004/dec16/jackiechan12.jpg
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 11:14 AM
Interesting story. One thing I can definitely believe is that the Gracies wanted to fight under "their" rules. They've always kind of been that way.
I actually tend to believe Benny's version here. It sounds more in line with what I have heard about the early days. They wanted to prove GJJ could beat other styles, they did not want to fight other closely related grappling styles. What Gokor was doing was pretty damn close to bjj.
But in defense of the Gracies always wanting their rules... that usually meant no time limit and no referee interference. They realized that it sometimes takes strong guys a while to tire out before you can submit them. Hell, it took Rickson like 15 minutes to put Zulu away. But I think that they just wanted the purest for of combat. That is the major complaint now about MMA. I heard Relson talking about the self defense aspect, and saying if you have a guy that won't go to the ground with you, you won. It was after Thales' fight with Anderson. In self defense, Thales could have sat there and waited all day and most never taken a shot.
In GJJ, it is not about winning. It is about enduring until you can improve your position. So time limits really mess that up. You have to go out and make something happen. MMA really is different than just fighting. Even in sport bjj, you are seeing a lot of submission only events popping up.
But on the flip side look where that got Royce against Sakuraba the first time. that shit was almost two hours long and ended with Royce getting his leg broken by kicks. Now granted there was referee interference but Pride was first and foremost a spectacle for entertainment and there is nothing entertaining about seeing someone ducking through the ropes while someone is standing behind him and not doing anything to try and change the position other than throwing the odd weak arm punch.
Speaking of Gene LeBell, why doesn't he get the same sort of respect in the grappling world that the BJJ guys seem to get? He's been at the shit for ages and is no doubt a legend in his own right.
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 12:09 PM
But on the flip side look where that got Royce against Sakuraba the first time. that shit was almost two hours long and ended with Royce getting his leg broken by kicks. Now granted there was referee interference but Pride was first and foremost a spectacle for entertainment and there is nothing entertaining about seeing someone ducking through the ropes while someone is standing behind him and not doing anything to try and change the position other than throwing the odd weak arm punch.
I am not saying it is a flawless strategy. But the gracies don't care about the spectacle or entertainment. Their whole stance has been, "you can't beat me" (or really you can't beat gjj). In Saulo's book he talks about when Helio came up to him and said, "I don't think you can beat me." Helio was like 85 at the time and Saulo was like 30 (and a world champ to boot). BUt he just says that was the philosophy of Helio. You can't tap me, I will just survive and endure, and eventually you will get frustrated or tired and make mistake.
Its not perfect. Because you see bjj guys get tired too from defending so much. But that is the philosophy of the old school guys. I personally don't like to watch it anymore than you do... but the flip side of your argument is that Sak should have taken a risk to get out of an inferior spot. But he was using the same philosophy. He was not in danger, so he just hung out until something happened.
MMA_scientist
07-22-2010, 12:11 PM
Speaking of Gene LeBell, why doesn't he get the same sort of respect in the grappling world that the BJJ guys seem to get? He's been at the shit for ages and is no doubt a legend in his own right.
I think he gets plenty of respect. He is not as well known as the Gracie name, because he trained in an already established style. Even though he and Gokor really modernized freestyle submission grappling, they did not slap thier own brand on it the way Helio did. I think that was the key. Gokor has not done it with his "Hayastan" style, but its too late.
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