Eddie Bravo Interview

[Mr. IWS]

inb4billy_scientistrages

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxTSBAoPoWl3jVBiIQvJ7Qninwr-lE2CSW_XsNLuFVNrsyqkmV

I actually agree with what he says about the gi


Talking about your Jiu-Jitsu style, what’s the difference between your Jiu-Jitsu and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?



Well, my schools are mainly taught without the gi. We do Jiu-Jitsu, I rank the same way, I got my black belt in the gi. I love Jiu-Jitsu so much, Jiu-Jitsu is in my soul, my heart, is number one martial art to me, not Wrestling, not Sambo, not Karate, Jiu-Jitsu. What’s most important to me is how Jiu-Jitsu looks in MMA. The world’s watching the UFC. How does Jiu-Jitsu look when somebody is trying to smash your skull, whether it’s on the streets on in UFC, that’s what’s most important to me. The traditional Jiu-Jitsu with the gi, the focus on grabbing and yanking, pulling on the collar, and that’s not so important to me. It’s like surfing: there’s the long board, the short board, I like the short board more. Surfing came from the long board, but I like the short board, short board is more important to me, just like the most important thing for me in Jiu-Jitsu is how Jiu-Jitsu looks with the whole world watching in the UFC. That’s why I decided to take the gi off, teach all my students how to fight without the gi and clinching, and my style is based on the clinch. When you’re clinching, your opponent can’t hit you. So, my whole style offensively, not just defensively, is working on the clinch, setting submissions off the clinch, setting sweeps off the clinch, so when the punches are coming in, it’s no difference, it’s the same thing, because you were clinching all the time.



What’s the difference in the techniques and these things you teach? Is it that difference from BJJ?



Yes, it’s very different. It’s just as different as Judo and Greco-Roman Wrestling. Judo and Greco-Roman Wrestling have the same premise, the same concept: try to take someone down. With Judo, they grab the collar and they yank and they pull, and all the set-ups are yanking and pulling set-ups. Greco-Roman they need under-hooks, over-hooks, head control, it’s different muscles, different clinch, different rips, so if you wanna get a gold medal in Greco-Roman, they’re not training Judo, they’re training Greco-Roman 24/7. If you wanna get a gold medal in Judo, don’t train Greco, train Judo 24/7. In my philosophy, same thing. If you wanna be the best possible MMA fighter, and you wanna have the best Jiu-Jitsu MMA, you should train without the gi in the clinch, like if someone’s punching you 24/7. It’s the same idea.



What’s the difference between this Jiu-Jitsu and Submission?



It’s just different names. You can call my style Submission Wrestling, you can call that, you can call it Catch Wrestling, or whatever, but I still call it Jiu-Jitsu because, for me, it all came from Jiu-Jitsu, you know. Before the Brazilians, before the Gracies showed the world what was possible on the ground, nobody was doing that right, the Gracies showed the world how to do it right, and what I’m doing is taking one step further and keeping doing it right, but let’s get rid of the Japanese outfit – it’s not even a Brazilian outfit, it’s a Japanese outfit, so let’s rid off the Japanese outfit and train with no gi, with punches and with strikes. So that Jiu-Jitsu looks good in MMA, in the UFC in particular, that’s my goal. I’m doing this for Jiu-Jitsu, it’s all about Jiu-Jitsu.



There’s a lot of polemic in Brazil about your Jiu-Jitsu style. What do you think about that?



You know, it’s hard for me to understand because it’s seems that all the traditions, there’re lots of Brazilians out there, I like Junior Perez, Ricardo Liborio, there’re lots of Brazilians who understand my philosophy, and I can’t understand why they all don’t, they’re all ruining for it, they want all my style not to work out, ‘cause right now it still hasn’t been proven 100%, not to the world. For the world, it you wanna get good, you still train with the gi and so it’s still not proved, it’s on the proving stage right now. You’d think that if you really love Jiu-Jitsu, you’d be hoping that there’re new techniques to make it better, but it’s strange how are people who are against it and all I’m doing is for Jiu-Jitsu, everything I do is for Jiu-Jitsu, so the reason people are so resistant is a shame because I wish everybody’d jump in and we all worked together and do this task together, but there’s so much resistance I’m left to do a small percentage of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community instead of everybody, it’s battling.



Do you think it’s impossible now for one to be good in MMA only training with the gi?



It’s not impossible, but it’s definitively not as easy as it was before. Royce is probably the only Brazilian, the only Jiu-Jitsu fighter to fight in a gi, Royce’s the only guy, and he was the first guy. So he left such an impression with the gi, it was suck an impression that everybody thought: ‘oh man, I got to get a gi too’. If Royce didn’t do the first UFC, if it was Rickson, Rickson wouldn’t have done it with the gi. We would have a whole different impression of Jiu-Jitsu if Rickson would have did it instead of Royce, or even Renzo or Murilo Bustamante or Wallid… All this other guys could have did it, but they choose Royce and Royce decided to wear a gi, that’s what left the impression that the gi is what make you powerful, the gi is everything, when to me I look at the gi as slowing you down, it slows you down. If, in 2003, when I opened my first school, and I said ‘I’m opening my school without the gi, I’m not gonna have my students getting used to the yanking and pulling and then they gotta do MMA and they gotta readjust. I’m not gonna have that’. When I did that, the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community thought I betrayed Jiu-Jitsu, they thought I through Jiu-Jitsu out, that I said ‘fuck you’ to Jiu-Jitsu, but that’s not what I did. I got rid of the gi, the Japanese outfit, it’s not Brazilian, and I got rid of that part. I felt what’s going to make Jiu-Jitsu better, that’s gonna bring Jiu-Jitsu back.



If Helio and Carlos, if they would have said, in 2003, ‘you know what, this American is making a point… Why are we wearing this Japanese outfit still? We evolved so much, we have changed the sport so much, but we still wear this Japanese outfit… Why?’. They would have said: ‘everybody, let’s get rid of the gi’. Right now Jiu-Jitsu would be smashing, dominating all wrestlers, but the reason the wrestlers are dominating is because they’ve spent all their lives controlling bodies without handles, without the gi. That’s why wrestlers are in there, that’s why you see Matt Hughes totally dominate Royce Gracie. Royce Gracie trained with gi his whole life, Matt have never trained in the gi, but that was why Matt was able to beat Royce so easily, because he’s used to controlling bodies without handles. And even Roger Gracie, Roger Gracie just made a public statement, after all this resistance, that I’ve got for eight years, Roger Gracie this year made a public statement saying that 80% of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu does not work when there are strikes, does not work in MMA. He said it, and that’s what I’ve been saying this whole time. He said it, nobody really reacted, it was a big thing, it was on news, 80% of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu does not work when there’s punches and strikes… Yeah!



Of course it doesn’t because if your Jiu-Jitsu was yanking and pulling all the time no one is doing this on a fight. Do you know what happens? It’s even if you don’t have a developed clinching style, Greco-Roman style, when you get hit, they clinch, they’re holding even if it’s not their style, they’re holding the head so they don’t get hit. But there’s not their style so setting up submissions as not as easy, but if every day you practice it, instead of every day you practice yanking and pulling your Jiu-Jitsu, if every day you practice under, setting everything from the clinch, moving every day, when somebody starts punching you, it’s the same game you play every day. That’s not a difference game. All I’m saying is let’s practice the same game you’re gonna practice in MMA. Not a totally different game, and people just don’t seem to understand it.


Do you think you proved your idea in Abu Dhabi, with Royler?



You know, I don’t know. Obviously I didn’t prove it because people would believe it. I don’t know.



But to yourself, did you prove it?



I know to myself. I know that for MMA the way I know it’s better to prepare no gi quality Jiu-Jitsu, not no gi whatever Jiu-Jitsu, it’s gotta be no gi from a really good no gi Jiu-Jitsu instructor, focused on no gi techniques that work in MMA, that’s better than training everyday with the gi for MMA, just for MMA, that’s all I’m talking about. When a guy starts to punch you, how’s your Jiu-Jitsu when he starts to smash you? How is it? That’s all that is important to me. In the UFC, the whole world is watching UFC and the whole world is watching punching. To me, Jiu-Jitsu is so important that I want to look good in Jiu-Jitsu, I’m not even getting rid of the gi to help Wrestling out, I didn’t get rid of the gi to help out Muay Thai. I got rid of the gi to help Jiu-Jitsu, that’s all it’s about.

[Mr. IWS]

Part 2


How do you think that win helped to make your name bigger?



Maybe beating one of the Gracies is the best thing that has ever happened in my life. It gave me a louder voice. Before that I was still saying the same things, but no one even knew who I was, but beating him now people listen to me, as least they listen to me. I have 29 schools, I’m not complaining, my life’s great, but my mission is to make my philosophies stand though all MMA, through all martial art, I’m not trying to get rid of the gi. Some of my schools have the gi program and no gi program. I want the Jiu-Jitsu community to realize it’s Judo and Greco-Roman, it’s two separate styles, I want it to be in every school plans of Jiu-Jitsu classes for people who are interested on the clinching style beat suited for MMA, but then you have your Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, but then you also have on Tuesday and Thursday you have no gi classes. It’s two different styles.



Why do you teach Jiu-Jitsu with the gi if you don’t believe it’s as good as with no gi?



No, no. All I’m concerned about is MMA, but a lot of people don’t wanna do MMA and they don’t care about that, so they like to choke out with the collar, they like that and there’s nothing wrong with that for me, that’s fine too. I don’t hate the gi. There’s people who like the gi and train with it. There’s people who like the long board and there’re people who like short board surfing, you know what I mean? That’s all it is. If you wanna train long board, train long board, but I’m focused on the short board. You don’t have to do both, but if you wanna do both, do both. If you wanna do one, do one. If you just wanna do the gi, do the gi. Ultimately I want to be a choice: gi classes or no gi classes, that’s it. I’m not trying to stop out the gi.



You worked with UFC for a long time. Would you image that MMA and UFC would be as huge as it is today?



I don’t work for the UFC anymore, I just quite. I was with it for eight years, but it’s too much travelling, I’m focusing on my schools, growing my schools, training my fighters and working on music, which is my main passion. The Jiu-Jitsu thing was an accident (laughs). I was only doing Jiu-Jitsu to stay in shape, so I wouldn’t look like a fat slum on the stage. I started Jiu-Jitsu when I was 24, that’s when I started it, and I’ve been producing music all my life. So, I was training Jiu-Jitsu to stay in shape, I got good at it, I beat Royler and I go ‘oh, ok, cool’. I have a lot of passion for Jiu-Jitsu, but the main passion has always been music. Now, the bigger my Jiu-Jitsu gets, the bigger my music gets. They’re working off each other, and as far as knowing if UFC, if I was surprised… I was never surprise. From the day 1, when I saw UFC I said: ‘this could take over the world’. I was just waiting for it to happen, and in the dark years, like from 1997 to 2000, I knew it was a matter of time. I said this literally word for word: ‘it’s gonna be a billionaire out there who falls in love with the sport and it’s gonna save it’. I knew it was going to happen, that someone with money would come in and it would happen. The Fertitta’s got involved, they bought it, they blew it up, there was no shock for me, I was waiting for it this whole time. I knew there was no way you could stop it, because everybody that I knew that was into it, they were fanatically into it, so on a small market, when they were exposed to it, the percentage of fanatic was huge, that’s like the test-marketing: you test a movie, and you show 40 people this brand new movie, and 30 people out of the 40 went like ‘man it was amazing’. You know that, even with only 40 people, you know that movie’s gonna be big. Same thing the way I look, my friends were all nuts for the UFC, and I was like ‘man, it’s going to take off, all it needs is a spark to tart to blow it up, I’m not shocked at all.



Do you think about working with them again in the future?



Probably I don’t see that happening. My focus, from this point on, is going to be building as many schools as possible, proving my philosophy for MMA and keeping producing my music, have a couple of kids, a couple more animals and just be happy.



I heard that you have a band. How does it go?



Like I said, I’ve been producing music, I’ve been in and out of bands ever since I was 10 years old. There’re few people I’m producing right now. One of the projects I’m producing is called Smoke Serpent, it’s a band like if The Cure, Depeche Mode, Marilyn Manson, Smashing Pumpkins and Peter Murphy all got together and said: ‘let’s form a rap band’. That’s what it sounds like.

[MMA_scientist]

negged.

[Mr. IWS]

negged.

http://www.thatsdominican.com/images/dominican-negged-thatsdominicanDotcom.gif

[edman5555]

He makes some points. Don't you agree, Scientist?

[MMA_scientist]

What point is that?

[edman5555]

Well I was joshing you. Though there is a point in training BJJ specifically for MMA. It doesn't have to be the only form of BJJ training though. You can/should obv have both.

[MMA_scientist]

^ yeah, groundbreaking stuff there. True revolutionary. BJJ is created for full combat with strikes, the sport version is relatively new. Most schools still teach a full self defense curriculum though. So I guess I don't get the point.

[edman5555]

Bjj isn't really designed for defending strikes though. At least not in training/competition. Thats what I gather. I don't think Roger Gracie was training BJJ with striking defense for his BJJ competitions. Obv his BJJ still works great for comp and MMA but that is because he is so good. The concept of training BJJ with MMA competition in mind isn't revolutionary but it isn't dumb either. I can see the point.

[SPX]

Japanese outfit

[MMA_scientist]

^ I agree that some guys have a sport oriented game that does not work well with strikes. But I disagree that Roger is one them. He has an "old school" style, meat and potatoes- closed guard, overhook, posture control. But he is really more of a top player than a guard player. It is very hard to hit a someone effectively when they have an overhook on one arm. That is the default bjj guard position. Also, there is more to jj than the guard. The guard is meant to be the best position for a worst case scenario (you get taken down and can't get up).

Bjj is based on a hierarchy of positions that would look something like:
1) back control with the guy flattened out
2) mount
3) back control
4) side control
5a) on top inside guard
5b) on bottom with guard
6) underneath side control
7) mounted
8) back mounted

mount and back mount are somewhat arguable... but I think the rest is pretty standard understanding of bjj positional hierarchy.

But it is true that a lot of guys don't play jj that way. There are a lot of guys that do some really neat sport stuff that has absolutely no bearing on self defense or mma. But that is true of wrestling as well. There are a lot of wrestlers who only work from a knee or only work off certain tie ups... hell a wrestling stance alone is totally irrelevant to MMA.

BUt there is not some guy out there trying to sell us a new "system of wrestling" designed for MMA. It is understood that wrestlers can figure out the obvious changes they need to make. I think the same is true for bjj.

Bottom line (re bravo) it is all marketing, and most of it is not even true. Just your standard American raping of an art repackaging it and selling it.

[MMA_scientist]

Japanese outfit

Wut

[SPX]

Just your standard American raping of an art repackaging it and selling it.

I see.

Speaking of Americans, what can you tell me about American Jiu-Jitsu and Combat Submission Wrestling? And how does CSW differ from no-gi BJJ?

[SPX]

Wut

Just sayin'. Japanese outfit.

[MMA_scientist]

I see.

Speaking of Americans, what can you tell me about American Jiu-Jitsu and Combat Submission Wrestling? And how does CSW differ from no-gi BJJ?

American JJ is just Jake Shields' attempt to repackage and sell bjj as his own creation. Look, every practioner has his own style of bjj... it is highly individualized to the body and preferences of the grappler... but they are not all their own art. In short, Shields is hoping to make a buck.

Catch wrestling is different. That is its own art that took a separate and distinct path. The philosophy is different and the origins come out of a different branch of grappling. CSW is Paulson's spin on catch wrestling. My gym used to offer CSW, and it was basically our no-gi bjj course, it is not quite as standardized as bjj though, IME (you really don't know what you are getting). I have done CSW, it is fine, great. No problem with CSW or Paulson at all.

Yes, BJJ is basically highly specialized Judo newaza. And I somewhat agree with that argument against BJJ (it is basically a re-packaging and selling of Judo newaza). But I think the contributions to the ground game that Helio and Carlson made are sigificant enough that it can be called its own thing. But even more than that, BJJ players are just better on the ground these days than judoka (and not by a little, by a mile). So it comes down to conceding the historical point to get quality training. So far 10thplanet is actually totally and massively inferior to bjj (in both grappling and MMA)... so I am unwilling to join the revolution.

[MMA_scientist]

Just sayin'. Japanese outfit.

yeah, true. No one hides the Japanese roots. My gi has a japanese flag on it right next to the brazilian one.

[Vandelay]

What about guerilla jiu jitsu? Does camirillo teach his own style of jiu jitsu or is it basically the same as the rest but with a different name?

[SPX]

American JJ is just Jake Shields' attempt to repackage and sell bjj as his own creation. Look, every practioner has his own style of bjj... it is highly individualized to the body and preferences of the grappler... but they are not all their own art. In short, Shields is hoping to make a buck.

I heard that there was a guy--someone well known in the grappling community--who was actually teaching "American jiu-jitsu," and Shields was his student. I haven't heard that Shields created it or that he claimed to.


Catch wrestling is different. That is its own art that took a separate and distinct path. The philosophy is different and the origins come out of a different branch of grappling. CSW is Paulson's spin on catch wrestling. My gym used to offer CSW, and it was basically our no-gi bjj course, it is not quite as standardized as bjj though, IME (you really don't know what you are getting). I have done CSW, it is fine, great. No problem with CSW or Paulson at all.

There was a school in Minnesota that I checked out and they had a CSW course. I had never heard of it before and still don't know a whole lot about it.

Regarding standardization, that's kind of surprising to me. Did Paulson not create a specific curriculum that tells you what you have to know in order to ascend the ranking ladder?


Yes, BJJ is basically highly specialized Judo newaza. And I somewhat agree with that argument against BJJ (it is basically a re-packaging and selling of Judo newaza). But I think the contributions to the ground game that Helio and Carlson made are sigificant enough that it can be called its own thing. But even more than that, BJJ players are just better on the ground these days than judoka (and not by a little, by a mile). So it comes down to conceding the historical point to get quality training. So far 10thplanet is actually totally and massively inferior to bjj (in both grappling and MMA)... so I am unwilling to join the revolution.

I blame the Olympics for the over-emphasis on the standing portion of judo play. I don't know how many people I've talked to who, when talking about judo, only think of it as a throwing art. I never thought of it that way at all, and I wasn't really taught that way either. This may be because we also had BJJ classes so my instructors were very familiar with the importance of groundwork. But I'd say that in a good class there should be probably a 70/30 split. 70 standing, 30 on the ground.

By the way, what do you know about Kosen Judo, and how different is it from BJJ? Do you know of any Kosen Judo guys who have entered BJJ tournaments?

[SPX]

yeah, true. No one hides the Japanese roots. My gi has a japanese flag on it right next to the brazilian one.

Well that's cool about repping the Japs on your uniform.

I was mostly having fun with his use of the phrase "Japanese outfit" over and over. You didn't actually read the interview, did you?

[edman5555]

American JJ is just Jake Shields' attempt to repackage and sell bjj as his own creation. Look, every practioner has his own style of bjj... it is highly individualized to the body and preferences of the grappler... but they are not all their own art. In short, Shields is hoping to make a buck.

Catch wrestling is different. That is its own art that took a separate and distinct path. The philosophy is different and the origins come out of a different branch of grappling. CSW is Paulson's spin on catch wrestling. My gym used to offer CSW, and it was basically our no-gi bjj course, it is not quite as standardized as bjj though, IME (you really don't know what you are getting). I have done CSW, it is fine, great. No problem with CSW or Paulson at all.

Yes, BJJ is basically highly specialized Judo newaza. And I somewhat agree with that argument against BJJ (it is basically a re-packaging and selling of Judo newaza). But I think the contributions to the ground game that Helio and Carlson made are sigificant enough that it can be called its own thing. But even more than that, BJJ players are just better on the ground these days than judoka (and not by a little, by a mile). So it comes down to conceding the historical point to get quality training. So far 10thplanet is actually totally and massively inferior to bjj (in both grappling and MMA)... so I am unwilling to join the revolution.

Alright well you know much more about BJJ than me so maybe I should just take your word for it. What caught my attention was the emphasis (Seemingly) that positions/moves are based around MMA in the sense that they practice the positions/moves as though they were being struck. For instance, they would consider strikes from bottom if they were on top in guard position. I do really like the No Gi idea, but I can see how that can be used as a marketing tool too. "we are training you for a real fight" as opposed to wearing a GI which would look like a funny suit to most people.

[edman5555]

You know whats going to happen with Eddie Bravo though right Scientist? He has like 30 schools now, he'll probably have like 500 someday. He will be just like mcdonalds.

[Luke]

Catch wrestling FTW

[MMA_scientist]

What about guerilla jiu jitsu? Does camirillo teach his own style of jiu jitsu or is it basically the same as the rest but with a different name?

Same thing. Camarillo is a gracie jj black belt and judo black belt. His training is done in the gi as well. The emphasis of Camarillo's system is transitions from the standing takedown into a submission. It really is a good concept, but nothing new really. He does focus on it specifically more than most judo players or bjj stylists, but it is a marketing gimmick imo. The reason no one gives Camarillo a hard time is that he has backed his shit up in competition and he has actually produced some quality fighters. Bravo has never placed in major tournament and has never had an mma fight. Yet he and his students talk like the 10th planet system is some revolution that is going to take over. I don't have a problem with guys attempting to brand their style, in an of itself. It is all the other shit that Bravo has done that turns me and 90% of other serious grapplers off. Aside from that, most serious blackbelts have said that the system is pretty much retarded. Some guys like it, fine, hell guys were playing "rubber guard" in the 80's. You can see Royce doing some foot grabbing in the early UFCs.

If you go over to underground there is a long thread where Caio Terra (a roosterweight) Cesar Gracie student challenges Bravo to a grappling match and they had a guy put up $10k. Any time he is challenged, he just says "I am into my music now..." Then Caio said he would fight ANY one of Eddie's black belts at ANY weight... and no one would step up. To be fair, Caio is a fuckin bad ass and everyone knows that he would humiliate Eddie, including Eddie. The guys at Cesar Gracie HATE 10th planet and basically make fun of them and taunt them constantly... even though it is like a senior picking a fight with junior high kid, they still do it. Cesar's has experienced success on every level, while 10thpl has experienced no success on any level.

[MMA_scientist]

I heard that there was a guy--someone well known in the grappling community--who was actually teaching "American jiu-jitsu," and Shields was his student. I haven't heard that Shields created it or that he claimed to.



There was a school in Minnesota that I checked out and they had a CSW course. I had never heard of it before and still don't know a whole lot about it.

Regarding standardization, that's kind of surprising to me. Did Paulson not create a specific curriculum that tells you what you have to know in order to ascend the ranking ladder?



I blame the Olympics for the over-emphasis on the standing portion of judo play. I don't know how many people I've talked to who, when talking about judo, only think of it as a throwing art. I never thought of it that way at all, and I wasn't really taught that way either. This may be because we also had BJJ classes so my instructors were very familiar with the importance of groundwork. But I'd say that in a good class there should be probably a 70/30 split. 70 standing, 30 on the ground.

By the way, what do you know about Kosen Judo, and how different is it from BJJ? Do you know of any Kosen Judo guys who have entered BJJ tournaments?

As far as I know, Shields has only trained with Cesar Gracie and he has coined the term American JJ to describe his top centric style.

I don't know much about Kosen Judo, other than it was more open and inclusive. I train Judo to this day... whaty I do is probably more like Kosen Judo, because we do all the forbidden techniques.

I have rolled with a ton of Judo blackbelts, I don't want to shit on Judo, because I train Judo myself... but I have yet to roll with a judo balck belt that gave me any trouble whatsoever on the ground. Most of them could probably get a hold down on me (25 second pin outside the guard) if they could get to the position, which they can't. I am only a purple belt, and even as a blue belt I pretty much dominated the judo guys on the ground. This is fo course sport grappling. Takedowns is of course much more competitive. There is one guy that was a nationally ranked judo player, that just flat decimated me with takedowns, even if I tried to stay low and wrestle him, he still found a way to uchi mata me every time I shot. His balance was just amazing. I respect the shit out of judo players now. Like a lot of wrestlers, I thought I could dominate all judo guys... it isn't true... there are just a lot more wrestlers than judo players in America so the talent pool is deeper. But judo guys are tough as nails.

[MMA_scientist]

Alright well you know much more about BJJ than me so maybe I should just take your word for it. What caught my attention was the emphasis (Seemingly) that positions/moves are based around MMA in the sense that they practice the positions/moves as though they were being struck. For instance, they would consider strikes from bottom if they were on top in guard position. I do really like the No Gi idea, but I can see how that can be used as a marketing tool too. "we are training you for a real fight" as opposed to wearing a GI which would look like a funny suit to most people.

Almost every bjj school does that. And especially the gracie academy, all they do is focus on a fighting scenario. As for what simulates reality better, gi or no gi, I think that is debatable... generally people are wearing more than shorts though. If you mean MMA, when 10thplanet produces a single solitary mma fighter worth mentioning, I might start paying attention. Until then...

[MMA_scientist]

You know whats going to happen with Eddie Bravo though right Scientist? He has like 30 schools now, he'll probably have like 500 someday. He will be just like mcdonalds.

Nah, they are already fading away. Most people know they are bit Mcdojo-ish. They have some good grapplers at these schools, but most serious students will drift away to a legit place eventually. It probably helps the sport in the long run by attracting people that wouldn't otherwise be attracted to grappling. There is nothing inherently bad about the system, it is just bjj, and they try to sell a gimmick with every position. Also they emphasize an attribute (flexibility) based system, which is sort of counter to the bjj philosophy of not needing any special tools.

[MMA_scientist]

Catch wrestling FTW

I know you are just trolling but...
I think catch is a good style. It is more aggressive than bjj (they train a lot of stupid ass moves that won't work though- CSW got rid of most of that stuff though). But there just isn't the quality of training partners and teachers you have with jj.

As much as you guys think I am, I am not a Gracie fan boy. I hate Rorion (AKA Whoreian) and a few of the other Gracies with the same gusto I hate EB. I am an equal opportunity hater.

[edman5555]

Whats wrong with flexibility? I would think that would be very important. BTW, how long does it take to get really flexible? Any stretching guides you know of?

[MMA_scientist]

Whats wrong with flexibility? I would think that would be very important. BTW, how long does it take to get really flexible? Any stretching guides you know of?

There is nothing wrong with flexibility. But one of the main tenants of Gracie JJ is that it is not reliant on physical attributes, it is what allows the smaller weaker man to beat the bigger stronger man. It is about leverage and technique. EB specifically says that if you can't do the moves, then go stretch. I don't see the difference between that and saying, if you can't finish the move, go lift weights and gain weight until you are strong enough to just muscle it. It is not about becoming physically gifted, if the position requires extraordinary capabilities, then there is something wrong with the move, not with you. Aside from that, your physical attributes will leave you as you age, no matter how hard you fight it. Technique stays with you.

As for stretching guides, EB has a long stretching guide in Mastering the Rubber Guard. But there is plenty of crap on youtube for free.

I don't know how long it would take to get flexible, I am not very flexible, never have been. I stretch a little here and there, but I know that I am genetically just not able to get gumby type flexibility so I don't really spend a lot of time on it.

[SPX]

As far as I know, Shields has only trained with Cesar Gracie and he has coined the term American JJ to describe his top centric style.

Not sure how true it is, but someone posted this on Sherdog regarding American jiu-jitsu:

According to Cesar Gracie (paraphrasing):

In Southern California, the BJJ technique is superb and the wrestling ability is lacking in fighters. In Northern California/Oregon, the wrestling technique is fantastic but the BJJ gets the short end of the stick -- more of a "submission wrestling" concentration.

BUT, in the middle (from San Francisco up to about Sacramento or so) there is a hybrid that Cesar and his camp refer to as "American Jiu-Jitsu".

It includes the elements of wrestling such as an oppressive top game, lighting fast hips, great strength/cardio/endurance, great takedowns and takedown defense and the inherent aggressiveness in wrestling.

The aforementioned wrestling components combine with these elements of Jiu-Jitsu: a technical guard game, high level BJJ submission/position knowledge (not just guillotines and arm triangles that wrestlers cling to), sweeps, and overall being able to compete off your back in MMA. This can or cannot include gi work, but in most cases it doesn't.

In essence, American Jiu-Jitsu is the bastard child of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu masters and high level wrestlers, keeping all of the advantages of both but nullifying the inherent weaknesses known to each type of grappler.


I don't know much about Kosen Judo, other than it was more open and inclusive. I train Judo to this day... whaty I do is probably more like Kosen Judo, because we do all the forbidden techniques.

I have rolled with a ton of Judo blackbelts, I don't want to shit on Judo, because I train Judo myself... but I have yet to roll with a judo balck belt that gave me any trouble whatsoever on the ground. Most of them could probably get a hold down on me (25 second pin outside the guard) if they could get to the position, which they can't. I am only a purple belt, and even as a blue belt I pretty much dominated the judo guys on the ground. This is fo course sport grappling. Takedowns is of course much more competitive. There is one guy that was a nationally ranked judo player, that just flat decimated me with takedowns, even if I tried to stay low and wrestle him, he still found a way to uchi mata me every time I shot. His balance was just amazing. I respect the shit out of judo players now. Like a lot of wrestlers, I thought I could dominate all judo guys... it isn't true... there are just a lot more wrestlers than judo players in America so the talent pool is deeper. But judo guys are tough as nails.

My understanding of Kosen Judo is that it is primarily focused on ground work. I think there are some vids on YouTube, but I remember them being really old and maybe in black and white.

Why do most wrestlers feel like they can dominate all judo guys? Is that only because judo is done in the gi?

[MMA_scientist]

Why do most wrestlers feel like they can dominate all judo guys? Is that only because judo is done in the gi?

I don't think it has anything to do with the gi... I think wrestlers just think wrestling is superior to everything. I know that is how I felt. When I was in lawschool I was on the club wrestling team. The newly founded mma club would come in after our practices and use the room. I stayed after one day when some guys were rolling and asked if I could roll. I went apeshit like most new wrestlers do, promptly got triangled by a 140 pounder and went to "half sleep" before I finally tapped. I haven't wrestled since, but I really thought I was going to destroy these kids with my wrestling... When I started doing judo, I asked the instructor to randori after class (I was like 21 at the time), not realizing how disrespectful that was... he said we will randori next time. We did and I actually was able to take everyone down except the instructor. That is why judo has not stuck with me like bjj... I was able to have a lot of success at judo by just not playing along with the judo style, despite being only a mid level wrestler... But I still realize that high level judo guys are bad asses.

That is why it sometimes irritates me when people say wrestling dominates bjj or judo... yeah wrestling + bjj is better than bjj. But you do have to learn some submission defense. I think the difference is that a lot of wrestlers just joing bjj gyms and train bjj a lot. They pick it up quickly because there are a lot of similarities. You don't see a guy coming out of a bjj camp just quitting his camp and joining a full on wrestling gym (for one, they don't exist for adults).

[Luke]

too long of posts in here.........next thread

[MMA_scientist]

too long of posts in here.........next thread

I got a little carried away... it would be like if anyone actuall paid attention to your boxing posts. You would get all excited too. I mean, Zak made this entire thread just to troll me, and once again, I got sucked in like a sucker.

[Luke]

I got a little carried away... it would be like if anyone actuall paid attention to your boxing posts. You would get all excited too. I mean, Zak made this entire thread just to troll me, and once again, I got sucked in like a sucker.


I was just joking

I know no one pays any attention to my boxing posts so I completely quit doing write ups on fights. My post now are


Holyfield -200 2 units to win 1

lol

[SPX]

Kosen Judo:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6r8FwKr2YQ

[Svino]

That is why it sometimes irritates me when people say wrestling dominates bjj or judo... yeah wrestling + bjj is better than bjj. But you do have to learn some submission defense. I think the difference is that a lot of wrestlers just joing bjj gyms and train bjj a lot.

Yeah, I would never say "Wrestling beats bjj." but it does seem like (say) "5 ranks in wrestling and 3 ranks in bjj" has a tendency to come out ahead of "3 ranks in wrestling and 5 in bjj" in MMA matches, if you know what I mean.