UFC 140

[MMA_scientist]

No, there is nothing I like at the odds offered. You really can't rule anything out with Hominick/Zombie. I really don't want a sub prop bet on Mir/Nog either. I don't think Machida will submit Jones, and I don't think Nog will submit Tito. You could do "Not Machida/Mir/lil Nog/Ebersole by sub" @ -262. But I am sitting this card out for magic parlays, too many submission guys. I mean, every guy on the main card is very good at submissions and/or defense.

[MMABuddha]

This is what I wrote about Machida/Jones elsewhere. Obviously it's very close but I think Machida has enough ways to victory that he can pull off the upset. At +425 that's a pretty juicy line.

This is probably one of the fights I’ve been looking forward to the most all year. Jon Jones is facing his sternest test in Machida. I think Shogun was a shot fighter when they fought and I think Rampage is simply too one-dimensional. Machida on the other hand has many weapons, is a smart fighter and can handle himself on the ground as well. In addition, like Jon Jones Machida has very good timing and can move in and out of trouble. The difference that rather than move straight back and out of harm’s way, Machida is much more likely to throw a shot and be an effective counterfighter before moving away. He’s good at moving his head in the pocket and firing back a shot and then moving away as opposed to strict running away to get out of danger. I think he’s better at throwing power shots than Jones because he’s far better at turning his hips and utilizing his fully body behind each shot. This is why he’s dropped far more fighters than Jones. Something else that’s underrated about Machida that should come into play here is his ability to drop and hurt fighters when fighting on the inside, or when dealing with the bulrush. He’s very good at timing someone who rushes in on him and sidestepping while hitting them with something. While Jones will have the reach and want to fight on the outside, if Jones tries to clinch up which is very possible considering he’s tried to do it in every fight, he will have to watch out for that.

Machida has flaws though, and many of them play into Jones’ hands. His ability to move out of the way in the pocket and fire back leaves him exposed because he never does it with sound form. He’s always wide open and off balance in some way or another, and someone with the length of Jones can easily catch him while he’s on the wrong foot. While Jones is not the best puncher (see more in the Jon Jones’ technical ability question) he’s still extremely calm in the ring and can pick up on things fairly quickly as a result. Also, Jon Jones still has a very devastating top game on the ground, with solid control and bone bruising GnP. Still, I just don’t think that he will be able to pull any of his flashy moves off against a guy who has probably seen it already.

I think this fight depends on Lyoto’s gameplan. If he plays it safe, judging the distance with leg kicks before moving in and out, he can win this fight. He’s a very hard straight puncher, and while sometimes he has the tendency to stick his head up when moving in, I think his timing and movement are too good to really pay the price, even with the reach disadvantage. I also don’t think Jones has the power, nor does he have the MMA wrestling to consistently take Lyoto down. Even if he does, we’re not talking about Quinton Jackson who is a turtle off of his back. Lyoto is a legit BJJ black belt with a nasty top game and a very serviceable, defensively sound guard. I think Jones is too raw to deal with the tools that Machida has to offer, but those are written in detail in the question about Jones’ technical ability. Lyoto has trashed inferior strikers with superior reach in the past, and while none have been as good or as long as Jones, I think with his elusive style he doesn’t depend on reach to hit the mark on the feet. Combine that with the fact that Jones’ chin is still in question and Lyoto has a far better chance to win this fight than the oddsmakers are giving him.

I will probably catch heat for this after the fact if Jones blows him out but taking into account everything I said I think Lyoto has more ways to win and Jones’ best chances at victory play right into Machida’s defensive strengths. I’m going to pick Machida to win by TKO sometime in the fourth. If Jones has a great chin on him than I see it going to a decision, but I’m pretty comfortable picking Machida.

[MMA_scientist]

Thanks for the write up. I agree that Machida is tempting @ +425.

Only thing I disagree with is that Jones doesn't have the MMA wrestling to take Machida down. I think Machida will have an edge standing too, but I think Jones will take him down if he wants. To me, the fight depends on Jones' gameplan, not Machida's. If Jones comes to wrestle, he should win. If he wants to show off his striking, he is playing into Machida's game and could lose, especially if he tires out late in the fight.

I think Jones has more outs and that Machida pretty much has to hope that Jones fights dumb (which he may). I don't know how good Machida's guard is... he swept Sokodjou, but that is really all I have seen of it. I know he is a bjj bb, but that doesn't mean his guard is awesome. He definitely has a good top game though.

[SPX]

Nice writeup. Feel free to stop in and post more often.

And you at least convinced me to go ahead and drop another half-unit on Machida at his current line.

Personally, I think the most likely result is another dominant win for Jones (just because he has seemed so unstoppable) but I'm with everyone else who says that if anyone IS going to give Jones trouble, it's Machida. I first took Machida at +275 because I thought that same thought process would cause money to come in on him even then. So I agree that there SEEMS to be value in Machida right now.

[SPX]

I don't know how good Machida's guard is... he swept Sokodjou, but that is really all I have seen of it. I know he is a bjj bb, but that doesn't mean his guard is awesome. He definitely has a good top game though.

I was wondering about this, too. Machida almost never ends up on his back. In fact I can't remember him ever spending any appreciable amount of time working from his back.

[poopoo333]

Rampage was able to walk Machida down, put him against the fence, and take him down. Not sure how long he was on his back though. Machida doesn't seem to react well against guys who stalk him down and connect a few times to be honest.

[SPX]

Rampage didn't do shit to Machida.

[Vandelay]

Don't think rampage ever got him down. Rampage wall n stalled to the nth degree. He didnt want anything to do with machida standing. If jones does get him down I think it will be through an outside shot. Machida is pretty good in the clinch himself. I have 1 unit on him already. Might throw another 50 on him after weighins too.

Im hoping mir line comes down a little bit as well.

Already have 100 on kz. Got him too early before the line got better unfortunately.

Others Im leaning towards are hecht and Bocek.

[MMA_scientist]

Machida whupped Rampage's ass.

[AC88]

Yes Rampage took down Machida.

[Svino]

In fairness, I should mention that the only reason I would even bother to point out, "Jones has never fought a guy like Machida." without simultaneously mentioning the equally true, "Machida has never fought a guy like Jones." is because the line is all the way at +425.

It is clear that "dictating range" is going to be the key in the standup portion of any Jon Jones fight, and Machida probably has a better chance of being able to do than than anyone else at LHW. This is also a case where the fact that Jones will have good coaching help to make the adjustments needed to fight Machida is worth taking into account.

Also: How much will Dana's blood pressure rise if Machida wins? Especially if he does it by outpointing him cautiously on the feet for five rounds.

[MMA_scientist]

^ I will love that. I will actually be really happy to just see someone take a round off Jones so I know it is possible.

[SPX]

I would be delighted to see Machida win any way he can, but I will say that I would rather it be a clear win rather than, say, losing for 4 rounds and then getting a KO or something like that.

And yes, BOL@Dana's reaction if Machida wins. But fuck him. I think it's pretty clear at this point that he only has a handful of people that he actual wants to be champ. He got pissed when Cain beat Brock . . . then got pissed when JDS beat Cain . . .

I think that if Dana had his way the champs would be:

Brock
Jones
Chael
GSP
BJ
Kenflo
Faber

[Mr. IWS]

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/194664-1/Birthday-fireworks.gif

[MMA_scientist]

Hallman didn't make weight. Came in at over 158

[poopoo333]

You really think Dana wants Chael as champ over Anderson? I am sure he would be happy with Rampage as champ...black people love him

[edman5555]

Damn hallman. I wonder what kinda shape he is in

[SPX]

You really think Dana wants Chael as champ over Anderson? I am sure he would be happy with Rampage as champ...black people love him

I think so. Anderson is obviously one of the greatest fighters to have ever lived, but for some reason he just doesn't pull in the numbers like a lot of other fighters do. I think Dana realizes at this point a) that the MW division has grown a bit stale due to Silva's dominance, and b) that Chael is a publicity machine.

[SPX]

Watching the countdown show right now. Been a while since I've watched one of these.

[Luke]

You really think Dana wants Chael as champ over Anderson? I am sure he would be happy with Rampage as champ...black people love him


Without a doubt .Chael is the biggest hype machine I've ever seen in fighting. He would sell plenty of tickets and PPV's imo as champ.Controversy and craziness sell.








****This post may disappear at any moment if it is not deemed forum space approved by MMAscientist and Vandelay****

[Luke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhm-qNvxzQM&feature=share

[Svino]

I think so. Anderson is obviously one of the greatest fighters to have ever lived, but for some reason he just doesn't pull in the numbers like a lot of other fighters do. I think Dana realizes at this point a) that the MW division has grown a bit stale due to Silva's dominance, and b) that Chael is a publicity machine.

If Silva beats Sonnen, I hope they just have him vacate the MW title and then fight GSP, Jon Jones, and JDS in succession.

[SPX]

I'd be down for that. Although I really want someone to beat him and take the title rightfully.

[Vandelay]

Starting to have doubts about my big bet on mir. Nog looked pretty good standing in his last fight. Slipping punches, powerful shots, good jab. I still believe mir has better standup and he dictates where the fight takes place. probably just gonna let it ride.

[edman5555]

Yeah I know how you feel Vandeley. I was thinking about it myself. Nogs surgeries have probably helped him some with his movement. That said, he was never really that great of a boxer. Recently Mir has dropped Nog, Kongo, Cro cop, and outstruck Roy. I think his striking is just flat out better than Nogs. That said, Nog apparently has power he has been keeping a secret. He was able to knock out Schaub. I will be betting on Mir.

[SPX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhm-qNvxzQM&feature=share



Just watched.

Damn, the crowd booed the FUCK out of Jones.

[Svino]

Just a thought: Rampage had shown he had trouble with leg kicks in the past, especially against Griffin.
When Jones fought him, he seriously ramped up his leg kick output. Machida has also had problems with leg kicks against Rua. I would probably expect to see Jones adopt another very leg-kick-heavy striking offense.

[Svino]

One of Vaughany (http://vaughany.mysbrforum.com/)'s more amusing bets from the SBR Forum:

0.236 units on Mir by TKO/KO at +550 to win 1.298 units;

::lmao::

[edman5555]

Jones has some skinny ass legs. He said they were in extreme pain from kicking rampage after his last fight. Machida might be able to hurt jones with kicks as well....

[zY|]

Why would that be a +550 line?

[SPX]

What's everyone think of Machida/Bones over 3 1/2 rounds at +170?

[Svino]

What's everyone think of Machida/Bones over 3 1/2 rounds at +170?

I think it's probably a decent bet. Despite his dominance, both of Jones' last two fights went over that mark, and Machida will probably be more cautious than either Rua or Rampage.

If I don't bet that (and I haven't), it's because I've been getting better distance odds on Live betting.

[SPX]

I won't be around tonight because my homey I used to go to the bar with has the night off and we're going to re-live old times, but good luck everyone. Kind of sorry I won't be here to discuss.

[Svino]

Thanks. Have fun.

[zY|]

http://www.vipbox.tv/watch/21843/1/ufc-140:-jones-vs--machida---main-card-only--live-stream-online.html

[SPX]

Damn, Machida got fucking exposed! I knew he never was very good.

[poopoo333]

LOL

http://www.twitvid.com/CC7Q9

[Vandelay]

hahahahahahahaha

[zY|]

rofl

[zY|]

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2442917/big_nog_broken_arm_medium_large.jpg

[Vandelay]

Did anyone notice buffer announcing the tko ruling in the mir fight. Won me some money as i had 100 on mir by tko/ko, yet mir won sub of the night.

[zY|]

Did it actually pay out as a TKO? The official ruling is submission, I believe.

[Vandelay]

Yep. or at least 5dimes did. Anyone bet it at any other books. And it was officially ruled a tko. Buffer and Dean agreed upon it. Tko (broken Arm i guess)

[Vandelay]

Yep. or at least 5dimes did. Anyone bet it at any other books. And it was officially ruled a tko. Buffer and Dean agreed upon it. Tko (broken Arm i guess)

[Thewisemann]

Yea, Nog did tap though

[Svino]

I still feel bad for Big Nog. I recall the live-bet scrolling feed saying it paid out for Mir by submission. I didn't bet it though. I think Nog tapped before the ref intervened, so it should be a submission. But even if he didn't, wouldn't that be a "technical submission" and not a "technical knock-out"?

[Vandelay]

Most definitely. I was surprised to see that graded as a win.

Here's a video for scientist to fawn over. I like watching these though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yAx-Uzw-Xs&feature=player_embedded#!

[zY|]

http://p.twimg.com/AgXOcTaCMAAB-5o.jpg

[SPX]

So some thoughts. . .

1. K-Sos = Fail

2. Not sure what the likelihood is of it happening again, but great finish by KZ and I was happy to see it even though I had a small amount on Hominick via decision. Congrats to everyone who bet the Zombie. Maybe his future with Zuffa is brighter than I feared.

3. sbjj was right about Bocek. Wish I had gone heavier on that bet. He needs to watch out for those guillotines, though.

4. Hallman didn't even give Makdessi a chance. Just went in there and dominated.

5. Hamman got knocked retarded. I was hoping it would be like the Dollaway fight where he almost got KOd and make a come back, but it was not to be.

6. Tito is officially DONE. He just can't fight at this level anymore. He should've retired on a high note after the Bader win. Hopefully he retires now, because it's clear that he can't do this shit anymore. I mean, he even looked a lot better in the second Forrest fight and the Hamill fight than the did against Rashad or Lil' Nog. At least he DID get that Bader win, though.

7. Is Machida the first guy to take a round off of Jones? Oddly I feel like he has done the best yet since Jones became Super-Jones, but he also lasted the shortest amount of time. GODDAMN IT! It looked for a second like just might pull it off. Fuck this, I want a rematch! (Side Note: Funny to think that Bonnar really did better than most people, even though it's obvious that Jones has progressed a lot since then.)

[mike]

Machida seem gassed going into the 2nd round. Jones is just a very difficult fighter to deal with. Too big, too strong, explosive and moves well. Who can beat him now? I was so happy for Big Nog when I see him hurt Mir. He should have just kept pounding on Mir. Super nice comeback for Mir.

[Svino]

regarding 1, and 5) I lost on both of those bets. I think I should try to shy away from betting hard favorites in fights that are likely to be chaotic brawls.

Two guys who clearly didn't have the takedown defense that I thought they did: Lentz and Makdessi. I wonder how much the size difference made in each case.

Two guys who should take some lessons from Vitor on how to finish a fight: Nog and Nog. Big Nog made an obvious mistake, and even Little Nog actually kind of looked sloppy in how he handled Tito after he hurt him.

In terms of finding someone to beat Jones, I think the "technical striker who can evade the clinch takedown" route has to be considered almost closed. No one is going to be a better Machida than Machida. I watched the fight again to confirm something I thought I noticed the first time: if you watch from about two minutes into the second round onwards, it's clear that Machida is really slowing down. He then lets Jones clinch with him easily and barely resists the final TD. Even Jones said he was surprised at how little Machida offered once down.

It seems strange that Machida would fade after only 1.5 rounds of a style of fight he's fairly used to. Which brings me to the final part of my excuse-conspiracy-theory: Remember the rumors that Machida had the flu or something in the days before the fight?

[Ludo]

The fatigue could have something to do with being cut open as well though. He was taken down and up against the fence with nowhere to go when he got cut open. That shit can drain on the cardio for sure though the time line might be a bit off as to how fast it generally takes for it to effect stamina.

[Svino]

The fatigue could have something to do with being cut open as well though. He was taken down and up against the fence with nowhere to go when he got cut open. That shit can drain on the cardio for sure though the time line might be a bit off as to how fast it generally takes for it to effect stamina.

Yeah, but I'm saying he was slowing down noticeably on the feet before he was ever caught by Jones or taken down.

[mike]

From memory, I thought Machida was breathing rather heavily even in the first round. I remember thinking "machida is slowing down".

[SPX]

Machida seem gassed going into the 2nd round. Jones is just a very difficult fighter to deal with. Too big, too strong, explosive and moves well. Who can beat him now? I was so happy for Big Nog when I see him hurt Mir. He should have just kept pounding on Mir. Super nice comeback for Mir.

Yeah, I also noticed that Machida looked gassed. That's weird, because he never really gasses. I wonder if an adrenaline dump had anything to do with it, with this being a huge fight for him and all.

And yeah, Mir's comeback was excellent, but man, I thought Nog had him finished. JDS would blow Mir's brains out.

[SPX]

Two guys who clearly didn't have the takedown defense that I thought they did: Lentz and Makdessi. I wonder how much the size difference made in each case.


I actually thought Makdessi did okay resisting the takedown, at least for a while. Hallman just wouldn't give up, though.

But I really think the size difference played a factor there. Hallman was clearly huge. No wonder he didn't make weight. With that said though I do wonder if Makdessi might want to consider going to FW. He's looked undersized in all of his fights.

[poopoo333]

I just watched Mir/Big Nog...HOLY SHIT. It is gay though because I put $ on Big Nog by (T)KO

[SPX]

The fatigue could have something to do with being cut open as well though. He was taken down and up against the fence with nowhere to go when he got cut open. That shit can drain on the cardio for sure though the time line might be a bit off as to how fast it generally takes for it to effect stamina.

How is a cut going to effect stamina? If you're thinking the blood loss leads to oxygen depletion, I actually talked to a doctor about that very thing not too long ago and he said that a fighter would have to lose a LOT of blood for that to actually happen . . . enough blood that the fight would simply be stopped.

[Luke]

Saw in a few places days leading up to the fight that Machida had been battling the flu all week.That could have led to him gassing quickly.

[SPX]

If that flu shit is true then it's really disappointing because he needed to be 100% for this fight of all fights.

[SPX]

In terms of finding someone to beat Jones, I think the "technical striker who can evade the clinch takedown" route has to be considered almost closed. No one is going to be a better Machida than Machida.


I think the only legitimate hope left at anyone beating Jones is Rashad. After that, we might as well just settle in and expect him to be champ for a long time.

The weird thing about last night though was that he looked very dominant and impressive . . . but in the first round he also looked more human than I believe we've seen him look in several fights. So one is left with a sort of dismayed hope.

[edman5555]

If Machida had the flu it would have affected his cardio. Also, he put on more muscle for this fight. That could also play a role. New muscle + flu = gas. Sucks. It will be a really long time before he can get a rematch too. Jones just requested a 5 month vacation and Rashad is next in line.

[Ludo]

How is a cut going to effect stamina? If you're thinking the blood loss leads to oxygen depletion, I actually talked to a doctor about that very thing not too long ago and he said that a fighter would have to lose a LOT of blood for that to actually happen . . . enough blood that the fight would simply be stopped.

There's a mental aspect to getting cut open and knowing your bleeding. It can throw a fighter into desperation, suddenly he's thinking about the blood, the dripping might bother him, will it get in his eye, will they stop the fight, etc etc etc. Added stress can drain stamina pretty quickly especially for a fighter who's never been cut open like that before.

[Ludo]

If Machida had the flu it would have affected his cardio. Also, he put on more muscle for this fight. That could also play a role. New muscle + flu = gas. Sucks. It will be a really long time before he can get a rematch too. Jones just requested a 5 month vacation and Rashad is next in line.

Hendo is next in line. Rashad isn't guaranteed to beat the other Jon Jones.

[edman5555]

oh shit yeah i forgot about phil dacvis

[MMA_scientist]

POst event thought:

I was traumatized by that kimura. That was a great fight and anyone who bets on Mir is just a pure gambler. It is impossible to cap that guy's fights. I thought Nog put him away, and then Nog goes for an arm in guillotine? Still, not was getting the better of the grappling exchange too, until Mir latched onto that arm Sakuraba style. That was nasty.

I was glad to see submissions make a comeback in high level fights.

Machida was winning until Jones decided to grapple a little. It looked to me like Jones was just trying out his striking, and then he was like "ok I am going to fight for real now." And then Machida was toast. I think Rashad and Davis both present interesting matchups fro Jones and either one could beat him (COULD, not will). I think Hendo will get absolutely decimated.

I actually said that I should not bet Hamman because he likes to brawl too much. I also thought he was a wrestler? I don't know where I got that. In any eventm stupid mistake and it cost me 3u.

I also overrated Lentz takedown defense. But I think that guillotine was pretty close. On one hand I feel bad for not betting Bocek, but on the other, I think we were a few seconds away from Lentz tapping him out too, so I feel ok with it.

I am still steaming from missing Cholish at -215.

[MMA_scientist]

Oh and I am reading that people are upset with Mir for snapping Nog's arm and then walking off without checking on him (and also Jones for dropping Machida).

Nog broke his own arm, he is lucky he didn't destroy his shoulder for life too. He was free to tap anytime, if you can't concede when you are caught, you deserve what you get. He wasn't getting out of that, it is not like Nog has never snapped a limb.

And for Machida, if you don't want to get dropped on your face- tap out next time.

[SPX]

So who will the next challengers be? I imagine it will be a while before Shogun, Rampage or Machida get another shot.

That basically leaves Rashad and Hendo.

Maybe Jacare, Rockhold or Kennedy at some point if/when they bring those guys over (supposedly it looks like Zuffa and Showtime are going to work something out after all).

Maybe Davis, Gustaffson or even Bader if either of those guys beats a few top 10ers.

[poopoo333]

So who will the next challengers be? I imagine it will be a while before Shogun, Rampage or Machida get another shot.

That basically leaves Rashad and Hendo.

Maybe Jacare, Rockhold or Kennedy at some point if/when they bring those guys over (supposedly it looks like Zuffa and Showtime are going to work something out after all).

Maybe Davis, Gustaffson or even Bader if either of those guys beats a few top 10ers.

Jacare, Rockhold, and Kennedy are middleweights.

Jones already outclassed Bader...Bader won't get the shot anytime soon. Rashad/Davis will be next I think, because Jones is going to take like 5 months off. It would be weird if they did Hendo vs Jones in May(ish), then Rashad/Davis late summer or early winter because it would be such long layoffs again for Rashad/Davis. I could even see Davis beating Rashad then having to get one more fight while Hendo gets the shot against Jones.

[SPX]

Jacare, Rockhold, and Kennedy are middleweights.

Goddamn it! Did it again.


Jones already outclassed Bader...Bader won't get the shot anytime soon. Rashad/Davis will be next I think, because Jones is going to take like 5 months off. It would be weird if they did Hendo vs Jones in May(ish), then Rashad/Davis late summer or early winter because it would be such long layoffs again for Rashad/Davis. I could even see Davis beating Rashad then having to get one more fight while Hendo gets the shot against Jones.

I don't think Bader will be next or anything, but maybe in a couple of years or something like that they're going to be giving title shots to just any old motherfucker who hasn't had one yet. Kind of like when Hardy, Leites and Cote got their shots.

I think it will go Rashad-->Hendo-->Gustuffson (provided G-Stuff keeps winning). If Davis beats Rashad though then that will just fuck everything up.

[poopoo333]

I do think they might push Lil Nog eventually as well, even though he would get smashed

[edman5555]

yeah good point about rogerio. Machida could also work his way back around for a rematch.

[MMA_scientist]

Davis will get a shot eventually even if Rashad beats him. Hendo, Rashad, Davis, lil Nog, Gustaffson. By the time he gets through that, some other people will present themselves. The SF guys might have some UFC wins by then. I think Rashad could give him trouble with his pace. Davis is the only guy that is a better wrestler that might be able to put Jones on his back though.

[poopoo333]

King Mo as well

[Luke]

Goddamn it! Did it again.






::lmao::

[Vandelay]

Cavalcante. Tough guy who doesnt stay on his back at all. OSP, Mousasi, King Mo. OSP and King Mo have legit chances to beat him.

[edman5555]

I dont think Evans or davis stand much of a chance. Jones can match their wrestling. However his striking was good enough to demolish Machida, Rampage and Shogun.

[Ludo]

I dont think Evans or davis stand much of a chance. Jones can match their wrestling. However his striking was good enough to demolish Machida, Rampage and Shogun.

I don't remember him demolishing Machida striking. I remember him landing one good shot that dropped Machida right before the end. He demolished Rampage standing. Shogun I won't even speak on because it was clear he had something horribly wrong going on with him for that fight. I've never seen him gas in half a round before.

[poopoo333]

http://www.fightcove.com/the-6-best-photos-from-ufc-140-jones-vs-machida/

[Thewisemann]

Bader just got dropped, and subbed...by Tito Ortiz

[SPX]

Yeah, but he also beat future MW Strikeforce champ Keith Jardine.

[AC88]

I don't remember him demolishing Machida striking. I remember him landing one good shot that dropped Machida right before the end. He demolished Rampage standing. Shogun I won't even speak on because it was clear he had something horribly wrong going on with him for that fight. I've never seen him gas in half a round before.

That's what happens when you walk into a flying knee from Jones in the first 10 seconds of the (SMFH) fight.

[Ludo]

That's what happens when you walk into a flying knee from Jones in the first 10 seconds of the (SMFH) fight.

I'm having a hard time with the notion that he gassed from a knee and was still able to hold on for over three rounds after the knee. We have seen Shogun's cardio turn to shit after a long layoff + knee surgery before. He took some of the hardest shots of all time against Hendo and still had more in the tank in round 5 of that fight than he did coming into round 3 of the fight with Jones. Obviously it was something other than a single knee to the body.

[AC88]

I'm having a hard time with the notion that he gassed from a knee and was still able to hold on for over three rounds after the knee. We have seen Shogun's cardio turn to shit after a long layoff + knee surgery before. He took some of the hardest shots of all time against Hendo and still had more in the tank in round 5 of that fight than he did coming into round 3 of the fight with Jones. Obviously it was something other than a single knee to the body.

It was a flying knee to the face dude. They have video clips of the flying knee JJ threw at Shogun in the first 10 seconds of the fight and it connected FLUSH.

I don't know if a JJ flying knee is harder than a Hendo right but I would be inclined to say that it is and Shogun himself has claimed in several interviews that it was THAT flying knee that messed him up the ENTIRE fight.

[SPX]

It was a flying knee to the face dude. They have video clips of the flying knee JJ threw at Shogun in the first 10 seconds of the fight and it connected FLUSH.

I think Ludo has a point. Hendo knocked the shit out of him on multiple occasions and he made it to the end. You're saying a knee in the first 10 seconds put him on queer street for 3 rounds?

[SPX]

BTW, considering that Lyoto took a round off of Jones . . . but lasted fewer rounds than Shogun and Rampage . . . how does everyone rate his performance?

[AC88]

If Shogun HIMSELF said that it was the flying knee to the face that changed the whole fight should we still say otherwise? LOL.

[SPX]

If Shogun HIMSELF said that it was the flying knee to the face that changed the whole fight should we still say otherwise? LOL.

Fuck it, you're banned.

Kidding.

But seriously, I'm just saying, that doesn't make a lot of sense. If he was so affected by a single knee then he shouldn't have been able to hold on for so long.

[AC88]

Fuck it, you're banned.

Kidding.

But seriously, I'm just saying, that doesn't make a lot of sense. If he was so affected by a single knee then he shouldn't have been able to hold on for so long.

I can believe it because Shogun's chin was good enough to take Hendo's rights - so I believe it was good enough to last through 3 rounds of assbeating after a flush flying knee. Just saying - I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm just repeating what I've seen and heard. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

[Ludo]

It was a flying knee to the face dude. They have video clips of the flying knee JJ threw at Shogun in the first 10 seconds of the fight and it connected FLUSH.

I don't know if a JJ flying knee is harder than a Hendo right but I would be inclined to say that it is and Shogun himself has claimed in several interviews that it was THAT flying knee that messed him up the ENTIRE fight.

So your saying Shogun couldn't possibly be a classy guy and didn't want to take anything away from Jones winning the fight? I find it hard to believe Shogun would say "I shouldn't have come back early, My knee isn't fully healed yet and My cardio suffered for it". There's nothing anyone can say that will justify trying to compare one flying knee from Jon Jones while both guys are still fresh and have yet to loosen up as opposed to two H-bombs that almost killed Shogun in two different rounds.

[SPX]

Just saying - I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm just repeating what I've seen and heard. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

BOL. I was just fucking with you. You don't need to be too worried about offending anyone.

Considering the shit that some people say around here, something tells me you can get away with saying Shogun was hurt by a flying knee.

[Ludo]

BTW, considering that Lyoto took a round off of Jones . . . but lasted fewer rounds than Shogun and Rampage . . . how does everyone rate his performance?

Well considering he took a round off of Jones I'd give him a better rating than either Shogun or Rampage. We haven't seen anyone so competitive with Jones since Bonnar after Jones got tired.

[Ludo]

Yeah, it's cool man. We're just debating the fight. Things will get a little heated here and there but trust Me, nobody is going to be offended by you having the opinion that Shogun was transformed from cream of the crop to creamed corn by a flying knee. We just differ in opinion here is all.

[SPX]

Well considering he took a round off of Jones I'd give him a better rating than either Shogun or Rampage. We haven't seen anyone so competitive with Jones since Bonnar after Jones got tired.

Word.

Goddamn.

It's really too bad that it only lasted for a single round. I really hope that a rematch between those two will happen one day.

[Ludo]

Word.

Goddamn.

It's really too bad that it only lasted for a single round. I really hope that a rematch between those two will happen one day.

Is it Me or does Jones have some luck on him? He fights an ill prepared Shogun to win the title, and then Machida gasses after a Machida-fight round which allows Jones to be the first guy to defend the belt twice since Chuck in 2006.

[SPX]

Is it Me or does Jones have some luck on him? He fights an ill prepared Shogun to win the title, and then Machida gasses after a Machida-fight round which allows Jones to be the first guy to defend the belt twice since Chuck in 2006.

I really haven't figured it out yet. Is he good? Obviously he is. He's VERY good. But I keep thinking his flaws just haven't been exploited yet.

I know the Bonnar fight was forever ago, but he clearly showed some cardio issues in that fight. And I know he reportedly told his corner that he was tired going into the final round of the Shogun fight.

Personally, I was hoping that Machida could keep it close (maybe win a round or two?) going into the championship rounds and then take advantage of a tired Jones. But it just wasn't meant to be, I guess.

[Ludo]

I really haven't figured it out yet. Is he good? Obviously he is. He's VERY good. But I keep thinking his flaws just haven't been exploited yet.

I know the Bonnar fight was forever ago, but he clearly showed some cardio issues in that fight. And I know he reportedly told his corner that he was tired going into the final round of the Shogun fight.

Personally, I was hoping that Machida could keep it close (maybe win a round or two?) going into the championship rounds and then take advantage of a tired Jones. But it just wasn't meant to be, I guess.

There's no doubt he's very good. He clearly has holes in his game but he has so much athleticism it's very hard to capitalize on them. His physical traits and athleticism lend so much of a learning curve to his age and limited time in a sport that has a striking component to it. Sitting outside doesn't do much because he's got 84" of reach and likes to throw kicks. Trying to get inside doesn't pan out so well because he likes to throw knee's and has a great wrestling base. It's going to come down to someone who can match his pace, wrestling, and get inside to throw a real good power shot in one punch because Jones doesn't usually stick around long enough for a good combo to land.

Right now there are only three guys with a snowballs chance. Rashad Evans, Dan Henderson(though he's the least likely to get it done) and King Mo provided that his knee isn't completely fucked by then.

[AC88]

Yes, I believe that it's going to take someone who does EVERYTHING he can do and BETTER than him to beat him.

[SPX]

Yes, I believe that it's going to take someone who does EVERYTHING he can do and BETTER than him to beat him.

FUCK YOU!

NEGGED!

AND BANNED! AGAIN!

[SPX]

Yes, I believe that it's going to take someone who does EVERYTHING he can do and BETTER than him to beat him.

No, for real, that would obviously be ideal but I think the next best hope is someone who can land a punch flush and with devastating power, which is why I give Hendo a shot. And I also think Rashad might be able to do something.

[MMA_scientist]

Jones is invincible. I would say Machida has done the best against him, seeing as he was actually winning the fight up until he got stopped. But I honestly think the fact that he was winning has more to do with Jones wanting to prove he could stand. Jones could probably have taken him down and pounded on him at any time. I think Jones will lose by being outwrestled and just generally pushed. No one has put him on his back yet. Everyone is cautious against him, I think a Sonnen-type pressing forward attack will be his undoing. The problem is that there aren't any guys that fight like that @ LHW that I can think of. AT MW, there are several guys, @ WW that is all they do. But @ LHW, can't think of anyone who really grinds and pushes forward like that. Couture used to do it.

[Vandelay]

King mo and Chael if he moves up. Barnett and cain at HW.

[MMA_scientist]

Mo doesn't really press though and make it ugly. He stands on the outside for the most part... he was letting Roger keep him on the end of his jab until he finally lunged in and clipped him. Jones would kill Mo IMO.

[Vandelay]

Yea roger...nough said. He was sticking to both mousasi and cavalcante for the most part.

[MMA_scientist]

Well it could be that he just didn't respect Roger's striking, and he (correctly) thought he could outbox him without having to get too close and give Roger the opportunity to take him down.

He came to wrestle with Mousasi and Feijao.

[poopoo333]

Shogun has always had suspect cardio, even in Pride. In the UFC it just got worse.

Phil Davis, Rashad, I guess Hendo, Gustafsson (maybe), King Mo, and Feijao are all interesting match ups for Jones. I would prefer to see Phil Davis keep getting better before they fight. I think Jones is going to be champ for a real long time. He is only going to get better.

[Luke]

BTW, considering that Lyoto took a round off of Jones . . . but lasted fewer rounds than Shogun and Rampage . . . how does everyone rate his performance?


Lyoto didnt take a round off Jones. Two of the three judges scored the first rd 10-9 for Jones

[MMA_scientist]

Lyoto didnt take a round off Jones. Two of the three judges scored the first rd 10-9 for Jones

Really? I don't see how Jones would have won Round 1. I gave it to Machida too.

[Luke]

Really? I don't see how Jones would have won Round 1. I gave it to Machida too.

I also gave it to Machida but the judges did not.

[SPX]

Lyoto took a round off Jones.

[Luke]

Lyoto took a round off Jones.

9-10,9-10,10-9 is not winning a round.

[Svino]

Yeah, even under crazy "have to beat the champ to be the champ" scoring, I give round 1 to Machida.

[SPX]

Lyoto took a round off Jones.

. . . nigga, I can do this ALL day.

[Luke]

Lyoto took a round off Jones.

. . . nigga, I can do this ALL day.


When you become a MMA judge your opinion will matter .......................until then, NEGGED

[SPX]

I'll put it this way, Jones beat Machida in Rd. 1 just like Garcia beat Phan in their first fight.

[Luke]

BOL I tried to neg him and reeped him on accident ::lmao::

[Ludo]

BOL I tried to neg him and reeped him on accident ::lmao::

Reeped.

[Mr. IWS]

BOL I tried to neg him and reeped him on accident ::lmao::

I negged him but Machida won round one.

[SPX]

Fuck y'all negging motherfuckers!

Consider yourself counter-negged. . .

[Luke]

I know Machida won rd 1 but I was trolling X. You all need to catch on when I'm trolling him and join in.

[SPX]

Double-negged!

[ctm0808]

Live betting had Machida at only +150 after round 1. Told myself not to get too excited til it got deeper into the fight.. dammit.

[Ludo]

Stop acting like a bunch of neggers!

[SPX]

BOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reeped!

[Luke]

Stop acting like a bunch of neggers!


::lmao::

reeped

[Luke]

Machida thinking of moving to 185

[poopoo333]

inb4SBJJsays"1 unit on Chad Mendes +175"

[SPX]

Machida thinking of moving to 185

For real? Don't he and Anderson fall into the "we'll never fight each other" category?

[Ludo]

For real? Don't he and Anderson fall into the "we'll never fight each other" category?

Yeah but Machida realizes he'll never be champion again at 205, and Anderson probably isn't too far off retirement yet. He's probably planning a last ditch run at gold.

[MMA_scientist]

Machida always struck me as a pretty large LHW.

If he can make 185 though, I think he is the #2 MW after Anderson. If Anderson retires, Machida should be champ pretty soon. Probably a good move.

[SPX]

I feel like Machida can beat everyone at 205 . . . even Jones.

And even if he can't beat Jones, the Jon Fitch role is the 2nd best one to have.

[Ludo]

I think Machida could make 185 if he worked at it. He always looked a little soft around the edges at light heavyweight.

[Ludo]

I feel like Machida can beat everyone at 205 . . . even Jones.

And even if he can't beat Jones, the Jon Fitch role is the 2nd best one to have.

But he can't beat everyone at 205. He's shown on two occasions he can't beat Shogun, though if he fought like he did against Jones against everyone else he would be the #3 or 4 guy behind maybe Hendo as well. I just don't know how he would react to being thumped with an H-bomb.

[MMA_scientist]

I feel like Machida can beat everyone at 205 . . . even Jones.

And even if he can't beat Jones, the Jon Fitch role is the 2nd best one to have.

I think Machida CAN beat anyone at LHW except Jones too. But I think he could lose to plenty of guys too, Shogun for one. At MW, I think he would be pretty dominant.

[MMA_scientist]

Machida would pick Hendo apart easily IMO.

[Ludo]

If Hendo can find a way to pressure and land on Shogun he can do it to Machida or anyone else if given time to pull it off. He's gotten especially good at finding a way to land that punch on way better technical strikers than himself.

[zY|]

Shogun can't move any longer. No way should Hendo have landed like that on him. Machida would pick Hendo apart. Still, Hendo does seem to keep landing on everyone recently. And Couture managed to hit Machida so it's not unfathomable to think that Hendo could do it.

[Svino]

IMO, this is some sketchy bullshit. Practically telling a fighter before a fight that he needs an awesome finish or something more than a decision win to keep his job is getting dangerously close to, "We'll pay you extra if you stand with Kimbo" territory.

Hallman: Decisive Win Saved My Job
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Hallman-Decisive-Win-Saved-My-Job-38071

After missing weight the day before the fight, Hallman said UFC matchmaker Joe Silva had issued him a warning.

“Joe [Silva] told me directly to my face that it was bad news and I’m probably going to get cut,” Hallman said on the Sherdog Radio Network's "Beatdown" show. “I said, ‘Well, I guess I’m going to have to put on the performance of my life then, huh?’ and he said, ‘Yes, sir.’”

“If I would have lost this fight after pissing Uncle Dana off with the bikini and then not making weight, if I would have not have performed, if I wouldn’t have finished this guy, if I would have fought him to a decision or something, then I could have expected to get cut even if I would have won,” Hallman said.

[SPX]

The more I watch this the more I have to admit that it was stopped early . . . should've gone a few more seconds. . .


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UfsldArPUOY/TuQVGoYSEWI/AAAAAAAAGqQ/2tKT7F1Vaqc/s1600/2.gif

[Ludo]

IMO, this is some sketchy bullshit. Practically telling a fighter before a fight that he needs an awesome finish or something more than a decision win to keep his job is getting dangerously close to, "We'll pay you extra if you stand with Kimbo" territory.

Hallman: Decisive Win Saved My Job
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Hallman-Decisive-Win-Saved-My-Job-38071

After missing weight the day before the fight, Hallman said UFC matchmaker Joe Silva had issued him a warning.

“Joe [Silva] told me directly to my face that it was bad news and I’m probably going to get cut,” Hallman said on the Sherdog Radio Network's "Beatdown" show. “I said, ‘Well, I guess I’m going to have to put on the performance of my life then, huh?’ and he said, ‘Yes, sir.’”

“If I would have lost this fight after pissing Uncle Dana off with the bikini and then not making weight, if I would have not have performed, if I wouldn’t have finished this guy, if I would have fought him to a decision or something, then I could have expected to get cut even if I would have won,” Hallman said.

I don't see it as sketchy. I Liken it to showing up to work the day before thanksgiving in a swimsuit, and then showing up late on black friday. If you don't have the best selling day of your life your probably getting fired.

[SPX]

I'm pretty torn, personally.

On one hand, I LIKE exciting, dynamic fights, so I don't mind a promoter encouraging that.

On the other, isn't the important thing to win? Plus, what was the big deal about the shorts he wore? So he's going to get cut because he wore speedos? WTF?

[Ludo]

I'm pretty torn, personally.

On one hand, I LIKE exciting, dynamic fights, so I don't mind a promoter encouraging that.

On the other, isn't the important thing to win? Plus, what was the big deal about the shorts he wore? So he's going to get cut because he wore speedos? WTF?

"All competitors must fight in approved shorts, without shoes or any other sort of foot padding. Shirts, gis or long pants (including gi pants) are not allowed. Fighters must use approved light gloves (4-6 ounces) that allow fingers to grab. A mouthguard and protective cup are also required and is checked by a State Athletic Committee official before being allowed to enter the cage/ring"

Shorts, not a man thong.

[SPX]

If it wasn't legal, he wouldn't have been allowed to fight.

[Ludo]

If it wasn't legal, he wouldn't have been allowed to fight.

http://www.ringsidebygus.com/mma-rules.html

Apparel
Each fighter shall wear mixed martial arts shorts, biking shorts, or kick-boxing shorts.
Gi's or shirts are prohibited during competition.
Shoes are prohibited during competition.

Thats why it was such a big thing. That stunt could have and may have resulted in a fine from the Athletic Commission for the UFC, thats likely why Dana said someone was getting fired for letting him go out there like that.

[SPX]

Fair enough. Seems to me though that in that case someone from the commission would've halted the bout before it began and made him change.

[Ludo]

Fair enough. Seems to me though that in that case someone from the commission would've halted the bout before it began and made him change.

It's not up to the Commission to have someone there enforcing the regulations, thats for the Organizations themselves to handle I think, though I'm not sure.

[zY|]

The more I watch this the more I have to admit that it was stopped early . . . should've gone a few more seconds. . .


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UfsldArPUOY/TuQVGoYSEWI/AAAAAAAAGqQ/2tKT7F1Vaqc/s1600/2.gif

No, this was not stopped early. He's unconscious eating power shots, head bouncing off the mat with his hands at his sides. Yeah he got up quick but that's because KZ stopped hitting him. It goes a few more seconds he eats 10 more completely undefended coffin nails.

[SPX]

Well he's obviously not unconscious. You don't hold your arms up in the air if you're unconscious.

In any case, I'm happy to see KZ get the win. I would've just liked to have seen a few more punches. It's not like people regularly die in the UFC because the ref let it go to 10 punches instead of 6.

[zY|]

Was this stopped early, too?

http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/quinton-jackson_chuck-liddell.gif

[Ludo]

Just because his hands are up doesn't mean he's defending anything. Notice that he only blocks one punch with his hand, and after that they just kind of hang wide of his head while he's getting hit over and over.

[zY|]

Well he's obviously not unconscious. You don't hold your arms up in the air if you're unconscious.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/052010/1274987502_double-ko.gif

He's unconscious. The 2nd right hand KZ lands puts his lights out.


I would've just liked to have seen a few more punches. It's not like people regularly die in the UFC because the ref let it go to 10 punches instead of 6.

I hate early stoppages too, but that doesn't mean a guy needs to get hit more than is necessary. Perfect stoppage imo.

[Svino]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/052010/1274987502_double-ko.gif

He's unconscious. The 2nd right hand KZ lands puts his lights out.



I hate early stoppages too, but that doesn't mean a guy needs to get hit more than is necessary. Perfect stoppage imo.

Please tell me, "The image can't be displayed for the moment..." is John Matua.

And I agree -- perfectly good stoppage.

[edman5555]

hominick was a good stoppage

[zY|]

Please tell me, "The image can't be displayed for the moment..." is John Matua.

And I agree -- perfectly good stoppage.

It's the double KO with ref Shonie Carter. The one guy goes out with his arms straight up in the air.

However, for your viewing pleasure.

http://i40.tinypic.com/r8cqw6.jpg

[Svino]

It's the double KO with ref Shonie Carter. The one guy goes out with his arms straight up in the air.

However, for your viewing pleasure.

http://i40.tinypic.com/r8cqw6.jpg

LOL. Thanks.