View Full Version : Official IWS Traditional Martial Arts Thread
You asked for it . . . and I'm giving it to you.
It's the official IWS TMA thread: A repository of videos and ramblings on the traditional martial arts styles or topics directly related to traditional styles.
If Luke gets his boxing thread, then I get this one. And if anyone doesn't like it, you can go directly and fuck yourself.
First order of business. . .
This fine video of Zendokai, a Daido Juku/Kudo breakaway style. We need to get some shit like this going in the US:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLbcBFdnyq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfsQRYJJjBA
Y
If Luke gets his boxing thread, then I get this one.
If by that you mean I get a thread where I talk to myself........... then yes you can have one too.
That's what I meant, yes.
At least you have sbjj, though. I have nobody.
Y'all want to hear a story that is full of cock-loving gayness?
So I suddenly got this inspiration to go check out a judo class tonight. I had found the website online the other day and figured I would give it a look and knew that they had classes on Mondays and Wednesdays (according to the schedule). So about an hour before the class starts I try to call a few times and don't get an answer. But I didn't think too much of it, figured out what bus I needed to get there, thew my gi into a backpack and headed that way.
About 20 minutes after getting on the bus I get a returned call from the instructor. He was like, "Oh, well we actually decided to take tonight off because not a lot of guys were gonna show up." So I have to get off the bus, wait 20 minutes for the next bus going in the other direction, then do another 20 minutes to get back home. GAY!
What's double gay is that it's kind of rare that I just do some spontaneous shit like that, but I was in the mood for a good workout and the thought of throwing somebody was pretty nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3H3B5LL-Z0
Vandelay
01-10-2012, 01:50 PM
Is this thread a joke? or are you being serious x?
I told ya'll he trolls us 100% of the time. You blind motherfuckers didn't want to listen to Me.
Is this thread a joke? or are you being serious x?
Why would it be a joke? This motherfucker's going to be like 50 pages before the end of the year.
I told ya'll he trolls us 100% of the time. You blind motherfuckers didn't want to listen to Me.
BOL! I'm just starting to wonder if you were onto something. . .
BOL! I'm just starting to wonder if you were onto something. . .
I was also right about Sideloaded, and ya'll felt bad for him.
Kyokushin fighter Ryu Narushima
5'6", 154 lbs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d31VgX9ZpZE
Is this thread a joke? or are you being serious x?
"Size doesn't mean shit in MMA."
Now that's a joke.
::handshake::
Y'all want to hear a story that is full of cock-loving gayness?
So I suddenly got this inspiration to go check out a judo class tonight. I had found the website online the other day and figured I would give it a look and knew that they had classes on Mondays and Wednesdays (according to the schedule). So about an hour before the class starts I try to call a few times and don't get an answer. But I didn't think too much of it, figured out what bus I needed to get there, thew my gi into a backpack and headed that way.
About 20 minutes after getting on the bus I get a returned call from the instructor. He was like, "Oh, well we actually decided to take tonight off because not a lot of guys were gonna show up." So I have to get off the bus, wait 20 minutes for the next bus going in the other direction, then do another 20 minutes to get back home. GAY!
What's double gay is that it's kind of rare that I just do some spontaneous shit like that, but I was in the mood for a good workout and the thought of throwing somebody was pretty nice.
So when will the next attempt be 2013 ?
Or maybe sooner?
So when will the next attempt be 2013 ?
Or maybe sooner?
Tomorrow at 7:45 actually. I called the instructor last night and we had a good discussion. If it's not gay I'll probably be joining.
Oh, and I'm starting a wado-ryu karate class on Thursday. Already bought the uniform. Just gotta sign up and pay up.
So what do you prefer in a martial art, X. A gritty no-frills looking art that gives results or an elegant looking art that still offers some practical should a situation call for it?
An interesting question.
And, the latter. I want something that is both effective and aesthetically pleasing. This is why something like Krav Maga doesn't really appeal to me, because it's just pure self-defense. Effective? Sure. But it's not fun to watch or do and it doesn't provide any sporting opportunities either. On the other hand, something like Chinese wushu is very pretty and there are lots of competitions, but it offers no real combat or self-defense value.
So I want something that is between those two extremes. My appreciation of taekwondo has always been because of the kicks. From a purely demonstrational perspective, it's a very attractive style. It's also fun to do. And TKD stylists can also develop a lot of kicking power and, at least in the case of ITF TKD practitioners, they can develop decent hands as well. On the other hand, karate--in my opinion, as a whole--is probably a little more practical than TKD. It's a more grounded style that leads practitioners to develop a solid base and more basic/practical power striking. I also like many karate styles' ethos of evasion and not getting hit. A lot of people have called Machida boring but, other than the Shogun and Bones' fights, it's gotta be nice to not have to go home and spend the first month after a fight recovering from an ass beating even when you win.
Personally, as far as an ideal style that I would want to learn, it would be something that uses karate as a base, but with the kicks of TKD and enough grappling to be able to handle most people on the street. If I just wanted to learn to fight and was not interested in the style beyond it's effectiveness, and did not care about the underlying history or culture, then I'd probably just go the popular route and learn MT and BJJ or Judo. But that's just not that interesting to me.
Your thoughts?
I'm a effectiveness type of guy. I like the art that uses the least amount of energy to produce the most result. Krav Maga fascinates Me because it doesn't get any more "real" than that. It is the product of the true to life need for a system designed for disadvantaged combat. How to survive an encounter with an assailant who might have a knife, who might come out of nowhere, who might have a buddy waiting for you to be preoccupied and tied up with the other guy to come from behind you.
I've also always loved Muay Thai, as you may have noticed by the av I used to use with the caption reading "Muay thai fighters do it in the clinch". I like Muay Thai because it applies the principle that every part of your body is a weapon. Not just kicks and punches, but elbows and knees which give you the option to strike from several distances. Also the history of it, and the legend of Nai Khanon who was captured by the Burmese and forced to fight nine Burmese boxers consecutively with breaks. He eventually beat them all with muay thai techniques and the king of Burma was so impressed he released Nai Khanon.
These arts were developed as a means of personal defense rather than a way to be spiritually at peace, or for fitness, or for the sake of the perfect form.
poopoo333
01-14-2012, 12:17 PM
This thread is fucking stupid.
This thread is fucking stupid.
http://www.gifsforum.com/images/meme/asian%20dad/grand/asian_dad01669136.jpg
I'm a effectiveness type of guy. I like the art that uses the least amount of energy to produce the most result. Krav Maga fascinates Me because it doesn't get any more "real" than that. It is the product of the true to life need for a system designed for disadvantaged combat. How to survive an encounter with an assailant who might have a knife, who might come out of nowhere, who might have a buddy waiting for you to be preoccupied and tied up with the other guy to come from behind you.
You see, I think that is cool, too. But I think it would be cool more as a set of principles--or perhaps as the occasional reality-based self-defense workshop--that is tacked onto an existing art, not as a system unto itself. If you watch the wing chun Fight Quest episode (speaking of that, you watched any of those yet?) then they'll do shit where like 7 guys corner a dude in an alley and swarm him to give him the experience of being attacked by multiple guys in a small space. That's cool. So I think exercises like that are valuable, but it's not what I would want to train everyday.
One thing I have come to realize is that most people go their whole lives without a real, serious self-defense encounter. So if your focus is on self-defense ALL the time, then it's the equivalent of a boxer training for a fight that's never going to happen. Now if someone just likes the training, then fine. But personally, if I'm going to devote myself to a style, then it would need to be something that has some other outlet for actually using the skills that I'm spending so much time developing, i.e. some sport component.
I've also always loved Muay Thai, as you may have noticed by the av I used to use with the caption reading "Muay thai fighters do it in the clinch". I like Muay Thai because it applies the principle that every part of your body is a weapon. Not just kicks and punches, but elbows and knees which give you the option to strike from several distances. Also the history of it, and the legend of Nai Khanon who was captured by the Burmese and forced to fight nine Burmese boxers consecutively with breaks. He eventually beat them all with muay thai techniques and the king of Burma was so impressed he released Nai Khanon.
I've got nothing against muay Thai but I don't especially like it either. For one, the Thai history--which seems to appeal to you so much--is not particularly interesting to me. I mean, it is of moderate interest. But I've always been far more interested in China, Japan and Korea than I have any of the Southeast Asian countries.
For another, a lot of MTers are fucking pricks who think that MT is the end-all-be-all of striking arts and that if you don't do muay Thai then you're doing something inferior. They also like to attack their own, such as in this thread, where they crack on a girl who apparently has an undefeated MMA record (I bet the TS didn't realize that when he posted it):
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/pretend-muay-thai-1964517/
Another pet peeve is that, since muay Thai uses elbows and knees in their competition rules, there's become this widespread notion that other styles don't use them. Karate has elbows and knees, and we've seen both from Machida. I remember doing elbows and knees in TKD forms back when I was like 11. So they're there. If a practitioner chooses not to train them or focus on them because they're not a part of their art's sport component, well that's on them.
These arts were developed as a means of personal defense rather than a way to be spiritually at peace, or for fitness, or for the sake of the perfect form.
Most arts were, though. Also, if you do some research, I bet you'll find that MT a couple of hundred years ago only somewhat resembled the MT of today's modern ring sport. If you watch one of the Tony Jaa movies--can't remember which one--he does what looks like a kata with really low stances. That's old school, but that's the way it was done until recently.
But to look at other styles, take Wado-ryu karate, for instance. Wado-ryu is actually a fusion of Shotokan, jujutsu and principles borrowed from Kendo, or so I was told the other day from the guy who was training me. There are a lot of very practical principles involved, like having more upright, natural stances than many other styles (this comes from Kendo), having the least wasted motion in the blocks and strikes (the typical fighting stance is such that you should have the straightest line possible between your fist and your target), and an emphasis on striking to vital areas, like the eyes, throat and groin (this comes from jujutsu).
However, while in my opinion many traditional styles (if taught and trained appropriately) are perfectly capable of be used both defensively and offensively, they also provide other benefits as well.
This thread is fucking stupid.
Yeah, reminds me of all those videos you post where you do nothing but lift heavy shit.
Mr. IWS
01-14-2012, 03:59 PM
Yeah, reminds me of all those videos you post where you do nothing but lift heavy shit.
Bulz
You see, I think that is cool, too. But I think it would be cool more as a set of principles--or perhaps as the occasional reality-based self-defense workshop--that is tacked onto an existing art, not as a system unto itself. If you watch the wing chun Fight Quest episode (speaking of that, you watched any of those yet?) then they'll do shit where like 7 guys corner a dude in an alley and swarm him to give him the experience of being attacked by multiple guys in a small space. That's cool. So I think exercises like that are valuable, but it's not what I would want to train everyday.
I didn't watch all the fight quest episodes yet. I like the Human Weapon series better but I'm watching them slowly. I agree that an exercise quite like that wouldn't be an everyday thing, but it stems from a time where that was a very real possibility in the day to day. Even today in the wrong area that can happen.
One thing I have come to realize is that most people go their whole lives without a real, serious self-defense encounter. So if your focus is on self-defense ALL the time, then it's the equivalent of a boxer training for a fight that's never going to happen. Now if someone just likes the training, then fine. But personally, if I'm going to devote myself to a style, then it would need to be something that has some other outlet for actually using the skills that I'm spending so much time developing, i.e. some sport component.
I agree that most people never encounter a situation that calls for self defense in their entire lives but then again thats not who Krav Maga is for. Krav Maga was designed by and for a people who faced the threat of an attempt on their lives at any time on any day. It's also become somewhat of a military facet much like brazilian jiu jitsu has for the american forces. There is definitely something to be said for the cultural difference between the region where kung fu was created as opposed to where say savate was created, or bartitsu. You don't see quite the emphasis on beauty as you would see from an eastern culture in the systems designed for use in european back alleys.
I've got nothing against muay Thai but I don't especially like it either. For one, the Thai history--which seems to appeal to you so much--is not particularly interesting to me. I mean, it is of moderate interest. But I've always been far more interested in China, Japan and Korea than I have any of the Southeast Asian countries.
One thing that sort of deterred Me from the arts based out of the above countries are the sheer number of them. You have literally hundreds of different styles and forms like dialects changing from village to village and city to city. Many of the styles in China were classified still as kung fu but can be as far apart from one another in actual content that it sort of turned Me off to them. I will say that if any particular system that was wholly central asian based appealed to Me it would be Jeet Kun Do because of the legend associated with it, the legacy behind it going back even further than Bruce to Yip Kai-Man.
For another, a lot of MTers are fucking pricks who think that MT is the end-all-be-all of striking arts and that if you don't do muay Thai then you're doing something inferior. They also like to attack their own, such as in this thread, where they crack on a girl who apparently has an undefeated MMA record (I bet the TS didn't realize that when he posted it):
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/pretend-muay-thai-1964517/
I don't really have an opinion on the typical attitude of the people who claim muay thai as their primary martial art, I'm more interested in the art itself than the people in it today if that makes sense.
Another pet peeve is that, since muay Thai uses elbows and knees in their competition rules, there's become this widespread notion that other styles don't use them. Karate has elbows and knees, and we've seen both from Machida. I remember doing elbows and knees in TKD forms back when I was like 11. So they're there. If a practitioner chooses not to train them or focus on them because they're not a part of their art's sport component, well that's on them.
I didn't mean to imply that other martial arts didn't incorporate elbows and knees, what I meant was that those attacks play a much larger role in muay thai than they do in say shotokan. I have noticed that while it is seen and portrayed as a more aggressive art that it is passive in it's own way. Where many martial arts put an emphasis on controlling distance muay thai is flexible in the fact that distance become less important than being prepared to use it effectively regardless of what it might be.
Also, if you do some research, I bet you'll find that MT a couple of hundred years ago only somewhat resembled the MT of today's modern ring sport. If you watch one of the Tony Jaa movies--can't remember which one--he does what looks like a kata with really low stances. That's old school, but that's the way it was done until recently.
Yeah it has been civilized quite a bit. Back in the day, even as recently as sixty years ago it wasn't uncommon for there to be several deaths in the ring for muay thai contests. They fought without gloves(either bare handed or with hands wrapped in cord), without rounds, and without referee's I think(I may be wrong on this last one) until one guy had clearly lost.
I didn't watch all the fight quest episodes yet. I like the Human Weapon series better but I'm watching them slowly.
I'd definitely say to keep watching, because I think Fight Quest really is a superior show. It should grow on you. Doug is a way cooler host than either of those guys on HW.
I agree that an exercise quite like that wouldn't be an everyday thing, but it stems from a time where that was a very real possibility in the day to day. Even today in the wrong area that can happen.
It can definitely happen and self-defense is still one of the big reasons that I'm into martial arts. Though in this modern era, I think that anyone who is REALLY interested in defending their life will carry a firearm.
There is definitely something to be said for the cultural difference between the region where kung fu was created as opposed to where say savate was created, or bartitsu. You don't see quite the emphasis on beauty as you would see from an eastern culture in the systems designed for use in european back alleys.
That's true, though I think Savate is cool, too. And to be honest, I don't regard many kung fu styles as being truly practical for self-defense. I think kung fu is cool, and it's interesting to watch, and I'm sure it's interesting to practice, but by and large I think it's a bit of a stretch. With that said, though, who knows, maybe there are some rare people who really understand their art who can use Eagle Claw or Snake Style on the street. I dunno.
If someone told me that they wanted a traditional style that is still useful today for practical defense, I would almost certainly point them to something from either Japan or Korea.
When I get older I do think I might want to study one of the Chinese internal styles though, like tai chi, pa kua, or hsing-i.
One thing that sort of deterred Me from the arts based out of the above countries are the sheer number of them. You have literally hundreds of different styles and forms like dialects changing from village to village and city to city. Many of the styles in China were classified still as kung fu but can be as far apart from one another in actual content that it sort of turned Me off to them.
Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't use it as a reason to deter you, though. Even though there are many styles, there are only a handful that are really popular. And if you actually wanted to formally study something, you would be even further hindered by what's available in your area.
Once you get out of China the situation is a lot more manageable. From Korea, there's basically just TKD and hapkido to choose from, with a few different versions of each. From Japan, there's karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, ninjutsu and some weapon arts. Karate, of course, breaks down into a multitude of styles, but most are fairly similar, unlike the situation with kung fu.
I will say that if any particular system that was wholly central asian based appealed to Me it would be Jeet Kun Do because of the legend associated with it, the legacy behind it going back even further than Bruce to Yip Kai-Man.
Yip Man's only connection to JKD is through Bruce, who studied wing chun with Yip Man, as I'm assuming you know. Bruce actually initially created Jun Fan Gung Fu before JKD.
I think that JKD is interesting, but it's less a style, than it is a collection of principles and concepts. Because of this, it can vary quite a bit from one teacher to the next.
I don't really have an opinion on the typical attitude of the people who claim muay thai as their primary martial art, I'm more interested in the art itself than the people in it today if that makes sense.
The thing about a martial art is that if it's something you're going to actually train in, then you have to adopt the community that comes along with it. Plenty of MTers are perfectly cool people. In fact, I'm sure most are. But a lot of them are dickheads and their attitude of "if you're not Muay Thai, you're not shit" is well known.
I didn't mean to imply that other martial arts didn't incorporate elbows and knees, what I meant was that those attacks play a much larger role in muay thai than they do in say shotokan.
That's true. Though of course each individual practitioner is free to place their own preferred emphasis on techniques in training, and a lot of traditional schools are also starting to train elbows, knees and leg kicks a lot more than they used to. It's the MMA age, after all.
I have noticed that while it is seen and portrayed as a more aggressive art that it is passive in it's own way. Where many martial arts put an emphasis on controlling distance muay thai is flexible in the fact that distance become less important than being prepared to use it effectively regardless of what it might be.
An interesting observation. I've never thought about that.
Yeah it has been civilized quite a bit. Back in the day, even as recently as sixty years ago it wasn't uncommon for there to be several deaths in the ring for muay thai contests. They fought without gloves(either bare handed or with hands wrapped in cord), without rounds, and without referee's I think(I may be wrong on this last one) until one guy had clearly lost.
I actually wrote an article on muay Thai for UMMA not too long ago and got to talk to Mark Dellagrotte. It was an interesting experience. For the article I had to do a bit of research on the history of muay Thai and, if I am remembering correctly, muay Thai actually came from a variety of different Southeast Asian styles that were collectively known as muay boran. My understanding was that muay boran was basically the same as saying "kung fu" . . . it was just an umbrella term. Over time these styles came together and eventually formed the basis for the modern system of muay Thai.
Mr. IWS
01-15-2012, 09:58 AM
^^^^^I didnt read that post, but I am impressed with the amount of quotes and the format with which you replied.
Kudos my man.
^^^^^I didnt read that post, but I am impressed with the amount of quotes and the format with which you replied.
Kudos my man.
BOL
I'd definitely say to keep watching, because I think Fight Quest really is a superior show. It should grow on you. Doug is a way cooler host than either of those guys on HW.
I had to quit watching the Kung Fu Monk episode because the shit was just too much. There was way too much emphasis on cardio than actual techniques which seemed to not quite do justice to the art itself.
It can definitely happen and self-defense is still one of the big reasons that I'm into martial arts. Though in this modern era, I think that anyone who is REALLY interested in defending their life will carry a firearm.
Yeah but there are people who are literally afraid to end up having killed someone. They don't want to have to end up taking someone's life even in a situation where their own might be at risk. I have to think at least some of those people are drawn to martial arts for the sake that it's, on the whole, much less lethal than a firearm but may still see you through being attacked by someone.
That's true, though I think Savate is cool, too. And to be honest, I don't regard many kung fu styles as being truly practical for self-defense. I think kung fu is cool, and it's interesting to watch, and I'm sure it's interesting to practice, but by and large I think it's a bit of a stretch. With that said, though, who knows, maybe there are some rare people who really understand their art who can use Eagle Claw or Snake Style on the street. I dunno.
I like the principles of savate in that it's something you could have done under dim torchlight in the streets of London circa 1890 in a fucking dress suit and top hat. It was created for the every-man to perhaps persuade a thief to target someone else next time, or to make it home safely from work/the pub. But the real intrigue of savate, at least for Me, is what it helped lay the ground for in european kickboxing along with traditional asian martial arts. It just goes to show that you didn't have to be asian to develop a style of fighting that made ample use of kicks.
When I get older I do think I might want to study one of the Chinese internal styles though, like tai chi, pa kua, or hsing-i.
I can see the appeal of this kind of thing, but I don't think it'd ever be for Me.
Once you get out of China the situation is a lot more manageable. From Korea, there's basically just TKD and hapkido to choose from, with a few different versions of each. From Japan, there's karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, ninjutsu and some weapon arts. Karate, of course, breaks down into a multitude of styles, but most are fairly similar, unlike the situation with kung fu.
Does Aikido even work outside of a dojo setting? I don't think I've ever heard about/seen/read about aikido being used to any kind of effect beyond a randori demonstration and even then it looks alot like coreography. I'm sure it's good for weapon disarms but I just don't see how something so utterly passive can be used in a situation where you don't have the luxury of having exact movements true to trained form being attempted on you for the purpose of demonstration.
Yip Man's only connection to JKD is through Bruce, who studied wing chun with Yip Man, as I'm assuming you know. Bruce actually initially created Jun Fan Gung Fu before JKD. I think that JKD is interesting, but it's less a style, than it is a collection of principles and concepts. Because of this, it can vary quite a bit from one teacher to the next.
I know Yip wasn't directly involved in Jeet Kun Do, but he seemed to be a pioneer in the concept. I don't think you can call what Yip was doing purely wing chun, at least from the legend that had surrounded him. It seems like he took what he learned and did a sort of fusion to incorporate more than what he had been trained with to an extent. I have to believe alot of Bruce's concepts were derivative of Yip's education.
That whole thing about emotional content, form without form, etc etc etc. Not to mention the fusion between striking and grappling along with being constantly aware of what opportunities are available to you and what openings have been left. Bruce was a brilliant man, but he isn't the first to come up with some of those core beliefs for a combat system.
The thing about a martial art is that if it's something you're going to actually train in, then you have to adopt the community that comes along with it. Plenty of MTers are perfectly cool people. In fact, I'm sure most are. But a lot of them are dickheads and their attitude of "if you're not Muay Thai, you're not shit" is well known.
I think this attitude may be a bit of backlash for how muay thai has been portrayed by the media in the past. Broken glass dipped wraps, being un-hurtable beastly motherfuckers, ones who practice by shin kicking load bearing beams and shit, being called Sagat since 1987. I'm sure all of that has jaded a few guys, but it's probably a pride thing mixed with the kind of person who chooses to act a fool in the first place, you know? Kind of like how Junie Browning and War Machine give MMA fighters a bad name almost every day.
That's true. Though of course each individual practitioner is free to place their own preferred emphasis on techniques in training, and a lot of traditional schools are also starting to train elbows, knees and leg kicks a lot more than they used to. It's the MMA age, after all.
I have to believe not as many martial art instructors give a rats ass about MMA. I know there was plenty of distaste for the sport when it initially went big for alot of TMA practitioners because it was seen as an impure contest. Especially since most traditional arts weren't designed to deal with takedowns and the clinch as it's used in MMA.
I actually wrote an article on muay Thai for UMMA not too long ago and got to talk to Mark Dellagrotte. It was an interesting experience. For the article I had to do a bit of research on the history of muay Thai and, if I am remembering correctly, muay Thai actually came from a variety of different Southeast Asian styles that were collectively known as muay boran. My understanding was that muay boran was basically the same as saying "kung fu" . . . it was just an umbrella term. Over time these styles came together and eventually formed the basis for the modern system of muay Thai.
Muay Boran is the direct predecessor of Muay Thai, and while it is a bit of an umbrella term it has a distinct trademark difference in that headbutts were permitted in muay boran, which was called the ninth weapon or nawa awut. Unfortunately the origins are unknown because the Burmese destroyed all the records of the ancient kingdom in which muay boran came about.
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq27/FiLdot/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuG1vyQ1mUQ
I had to quit watching the Kung Fu Monk episode because the shit was just too much. There was way too much emphasis on cardio than actual techniques which seemed to not quite do justice to the art itself.
I remember the kyokushin, boxing, savate and wing chun episodes being particularly cool. You might want to start with those.
Yeah but there are people who are literally afraid to end up having killed someone. They don't want to have to end up taking someone's life even in a situation where their own might be at risk. I have to think at least some of those people are drawn to martial arts for the sake that it's, on the whole, much less lethal than a firearm but may still see you through being attacked by someone.
I certainly don't want to kill anyone, both because I don't want to have it on my conscience and because of the legal ramifications. And I also encourage people to learn hand-to-hand self-defense. But there are some people, especially small women, who just don't have the size or strength to deal with a big man who intends to do them harm, regardless of training. Sometimes the difference between getting raped or not is a gun.
I like the principles of savate in that it's something you could have done under dim torchlight in the streets of London circa 1890 in a fucking dress suit and top hat. It was created for the every-man to perhaps persuade a thief to target someone else next time, or to make it home safely from work/the pub. But the real intrigue of savate, at least for Me, is what it helped lay the ground for in european kickboxing along with traditional asian martial arts. It just goes to show that you didn't have to be asian to develop a style of fighting that made ample use of kicks.
Yeah, savate is interesting for a number of reasons, and like you, I think the idea of a kick-based european martial art is pretty fascinating. In fact, it may be the only one that I know of.
I can see the appeal of this kind of thing, but I don't think it'd ever be for Me.
Yeah, well I don't think I'd want to fuck with it right now, but when I'm like 60 and just chilling and have gotten my fill of hard-charging ass-kicking martial arts, I could see it interesting me.
Does Aikido even work outside of a dojo setting? I don't think I've ever heard about/seen/read about aikido being used to any kind of effect beyond a randori demonstration and even then it looks alot like coreography. I'm sure it's good for weapon disarms but I just don't see how something so utterly passive can be used in a situation where you don't have the luxury of having exact movements true to trained form being attempted on you for the purpose of demonstration.
I really don't know. And the "randori" demonstrations ARE choreographed . . . there is no free sparring in aikido, according to something I recently watched. Personally, I don't really care about aikido, and I'm sure I'll never learn it, nor would I suggest it to anyone else for self-defense.
A lot of the aikido people that I've run across talk more about its spiritual/meditative qualities than its self-defense value, so I don't even know how confident most aikidokas are in their SD skills.
I know Yip wasn't directly involved in Jeet Kun Do, but he seemed to be a pioneer in the concept. I don't think you can call what Yip was doing purely wing chun, at least from the legend that had surrounded him. It seems like he took what he learned and did a sort of fusion to incorporate more than what he had been trained with to an extent. I have to believe alot of Bruce's concepts were derivative of Yip's education.
That whole thing about emotional content, form without form, etc etc etc. Not to mention the fusion between striking and grappling along with being constantly aware of what opportunities are available to you and what openings have been left. Bruce was a brilliant man, but he isn't the first to come up with some of those core beliefs for a combat system.
Could be. I've never heard much about Yip Man's influence beyond wing chun, but then again I haven't done a lot of research on it either.
I think this attitude may be a bit of backlash for how muay thai has been portrayed by the media in the past. Broken glass dipped wraps, being un-hurtable beastly motherfuckers, ones who practice by shin kicking load bearing beams and shit, being called Sagat since 1987. I'm sure all of that has jaded a few guys, but it's probably a pride thing mixed with the kind of person who chooses to act a fool in the first place, you know? Kind of like how Junie Browning and War Machine give MMA fighters a bad name almost every day.
I think that's part of it. I also think it has plenty to do with the fact that the sport component of MT is full-contact and is virtually synonomous with the style itself, and that virtually all legitimate striking weapons are allowed in competition. And of course there's something to that. MT is battle-tested and people respect that. This is also the reason that Kyokushin was pretty much the only karate style that got any respect in the MMA world before Machida came along.
The other problem is McDojoism in traditional martial arts. The way many traditional styles have been taught and trained over the past few decades hasn't done the traditional world any favors. Thankfully things are starting to come full circle a bit and people are beginning to realize that the problem isn't TKD or Karate or whatever, but the way they're trained. Train them like practical, serious fighting styles, and they will be.
I have to believe not as many martial art instructors give a rats ass about MMA.
A lot don't. Some are still bitter and actively hate MMA. But a lot are fans and have been open to the holes and gaps that MMA has exposed in a lot of traditional training. I've talked to a lot of instructors on MartialTalk and Martial Arts Planet who have added in leg kicks and grappling and the like because of MMA.
Muay Boran is the direct predecessor of Muay Thai, and while it is a bit of an umbrella term it has a distinct trademark difference in that headbutts were permitted in muay boran, which was called the ninth weapon or nawa awut. Unfortunately the origins are unknown because the Burmese destroyed all the records of the ancient kingdom in which muay boran came about.
I remember hearing that, about headbutts.
BTW, I think you've been holding back on us a bit. You clearly know more than you've lead us to believe. Is all your knowledge academic or have you actually trained in anything?
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq27/FiLdot/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg
Awesome contribution. Truly groundbreaking stuff.
I remember the kyokushin, boxing, savate and wing chun episodes being particularly cool. You might want to start with those.
I'll check those out soon, thanks.
I certainly don't want to kill anyone, both because I don't want to have it on my conscience and because of the legal ramifications. And I also encourage people to learn hand-to-hand self-defense. But there are some people, especially small women, who just don't have the size or strength to deal with a big man who intends to do them harm, regardless of training. Sometimes the difference between getting raped or not is a gun.
I was talking more about men than women. Obviously a petite woman has next to no chance without some serious knowledge and confidence in that knowledge against a large male assailant. But a man, even a small man has different reasons and options in a fight or flight situation. He might fight to survive, or fight because of pride, or run because he's trying to survive. For a woman it's likely she'll be outrun and overpowered, or just overpowered without some kind of equalizer. On average a woman is going to be smaller than a man and won't have the muscle content in the places it counts to fend off even a poorly educated attack/attempt to overpower her. A man has the added muscle to help bridge that gap, and the threat of rape usually(at least outside of prison) a non factor in things.
The idea of non-lethal resistance has been the goal of plenty of people for a long time. Going back to the core principle of Aikido itself, the general procedure of law enforcement, etc etc etc. Taking a life is usually the last thing on any morally inclined sane person's mind. Most people who fit the description for sane and morally inclined probably wouldn't want to try and kill someone who was potentially trying to kill them first, thats just how it is. If someone came up to you with a knife and said "give me your wallet before I cut you!" you'd probably give them your wallet because the issue isn't just defending yourself at that point, it's potentially having to kill that guy in order to do so.
Yeah, savate is interesting for a number of reasons, and like you, I think the idea of a kick-based european martial art is pretty fascinating. In fact, it may be the only one that I know of.
I think that personally savate's roots in kicking follow the psychological effect that being punched in the face has for most people. Especially someone who wasn't looking for a fight in the first place. If your just walking home you don't want to be in a fight, and you certainly don't want to be punched in the face by someone for whatever reason. The easiest way to avoid that without giving up your ground is to create and hold distance. The best way to do that is to use something that has effect from beyond the average length of the human arm, which is the leg.
I really don't know. And the "randori" demonstrations ARE choreographed . . . there is no free sparring in aikido, according to something I recently watched. Personally, I don't really care about aikido, and I'm sure I'll never learn it, nor would I suggest it to anyone else for self-defense.
A lot of the aikido people that I've run across talk more about its spiritual/meditative qualities than its self-defense value, so I don't even know how confident most aikidokas are in their SD skills.
Thats what I meant. The randori's are choreographed and impressive in that aspect but will those same techniques translate to situations where the movements being thrown at you aren't exactly what you've been taught about? Will they be able to snag the wrist and flip an opponent who's REALLY charging them with a knife? It just doesn't seem like a practical art for anything other than fitness and achieving perfect technique.
Could be. I've never heard much about Yip Man's influence beyond wing chun, but then again I haven't done a lot of research on it either.
I haven't done a whole lot of research about it. But I find it hard to believe that, given Yip's story and the legacy he's left in his students who went on to be great practitioners of martial arts in general, he was practicing 100% by the book wing chun as opposed to a self made fusion style. His success and fame couldn't have arisen just simply by achieving the status of "master" in the traditional wing chun.
I think that's part of it. I also think it has plenty to do with the fact that the sport component of MT is full-contact and is virtually synonomous with the style itself, and that virtually all legitimate striking weapons are allowed in competition. And of course there's something to that. MT is battle-tested and people respect that. This is also the reason that Kyokushin was pretty much the only karate style that got any respect in the MMA world before Machida came along.
The other problem is McDojoism in traditional martial arts. The way many traditional styles have been taught and trained over the past few decades hasn't done the traditional world any favors. Thankfully things are starting to come full circle a bit and people are beginning to realize that the problem isn't TKD or Karate or whatever, but the way they're trained. Train them like practical, serious fighting styles, and they will be.
That could also be part of it. Maybe the fact that the proverbial outlandish likes-to-fight-guy is drawn to a style where full contact is regular practice has something to do with it. Maybe the culture difference between indo-chinese culture and the main portion of asia is something to look at as well. It could be a big mixture built on many factors or it could just be localized to a specific type of person.
It's true that the moment you start treating something like a practical self defense system it can be. Even Aikido could probably be adapted given the core principles of redirecting force much like Judo. But that kind of thing takes change on a grand scale, and it may not be something purists ever adopt.
BTW, I think you've been holding back on us a bit. You clearly know more than you've lead us to believe. Is all your knowledge academic or have you actually trained in anything?
I've dabbled here and there. Never trained seriously but I'm mostly a student of biomechanics. I'm fascinated by how the human body moves and can move, the different powers at work in something like an armbar or a low kick.
Thats what I meant. The randori's are choreographed and impressive in that aspect but will those same techniques translate to situations where the movements being thrown at you aren't exactly what you've been taught about? Will they be able to snag the wrist and flip an opponent who's REALLY charging them with a knife? It just doesn't seem like a practical art for anything other than fitness and achieving perfect technique.
Yeah, I dunno. I'm sure there's SOME of it that can be used in a self-defense situation, and a lot a lot of the perp-control tactics used by law enforcement are aikido-esque in nature. But yeah, if someone wanted a self-defense grappling art I wouldn't point them toward aikido.
I haven't done a whole lot of research about it. But I find it hard to believe that, given Yip's story and the legacy he's left in his students who went on to be great practitioners of martial arts in general, he was practicing 100% by the book wing chun as opposed to a self made fusion style. His success and fame couldn't have arisen just simply by achieving the status of "master" in the traditional wing chun.
I would like to know how well-known he would be if there had never been a Bruce Lee.
It's true that the moment you start treating something like a practical self defense system it can be. Even Aikido could probably be adapted given the core principles of redirecting force much like Judo. But that kind of thing takes change on a grand scale, and it may not be something purists ever adopt.
I think that some arts pretty far enough out there to where they would require a good bit of modification, or at the very least, only a small part of the entire system would be truly applicable to self-defense. Aikido is certainly one of those styles. A lot of kung fu styles would be as well.
There are a lot of traditional styles that I think are pretty good to go as-is, though. But it's important to separate the art from the sport. If you train karate just for the sport aspect, then you might have some issues with adapting your habits and technique to a self-defense situation. On the other hand, if you ignore the sport and only train it for self-defense, then there will probably be little modification required. For me, personally, I'd like to take a middle ground and do some of both.
I've dabbled here and there. Never trained seriously but I'm mostly a student of biomechanics. I'm fascinated by how the human body moves and can move, the different powers at work in something like an armbar or a low kick.
That's pretty interesting. Do you get into those Fight Science Discovery Channel shows and shit like that?
I think that personally savate's roots in kicking follow the psychological effect that being punched in the face has for most people. Especially someone who wasn't looking for a fight in the first place. If your just walking home you don't want to be in a fight, and you certainly don't want to be punched in the face by someone for whatever reason. The easiest way to avoid that without giving up your ground is to create and hold distance. The best way to do that is to use something that has effect from beyond the average length of the human arm, which is the leg.
I think two things are particularly interesting here:
1. For a long time in many parts of the world, including America, a fist fight was considered the manly way to go about things. My step-dad even told me once that when he was growing up there was no kicking in fighting. Kicking was for cowards and pussies. Real men fight with their fists. It seems that this was not the mind-set of the French.
2. Considering that Savate was not created strictly as a ring sport with rules, I think it's interesting that there was little to no concern about kicking in a street fight in the sense that kicks take your base away and being wrestled to the ground is a much greater possibility with only one leg supporting all your weight.
Yeah, I dunno. I'm sure there's SOME of it that can be used in a self-defense situation, and a lot a lot of the perp-control tactics used by law enforcement are aikido-esque in nature. But yeah, if someone wanted a self-defense grappling art I wouldn't point them toward aikido.
I know some of the basic police techniques are aikido based in that they are joint locks designed for control rather than destruction of the joint at first. But you won't see cops making criminals swirl around in the air like a jumprope anytime soon.
I would like to know how well-known he would be if there had never been a Bruce Lee.
Probably not so well known in the western world, but he was absolutely famous in his city and is still well revered across china through his students and whatnot.
I think that some arts pretty far enough out there to where they would require a good bit of modification, or at the very least, only a small part of the entire system would be truly applicable to self-defense. Aikido is certainly one of those styles. A lot of kung fu styles would be as well.
There are a lot of traditional styles that I think are pretty good to go as-is, though. But it's important to separate the art from the sport. If you train karate just for the sport aspect, then you might have some issues with adapting your habits and technique to a self-defense situation. On the other hand, if you ignore the sport and only train it for self-defense, then there will probably be little modification required. For me, personally, I'd like to take a middle ground and do some of both.
This is essentially what I was getting at. There are a few techniques that would need to added/removed from the basic repertoire to be considered "spontaneous-proof" because let's face it. You throw a traditionally trained tang soo do practitioner in some random setting where without warning he's rushed on and attacked by someone and the chances are more or less 50/50 that he's going to come out on top. That may not be a very good concept but it's off the top of My head and I think it would apply beyond a person by person basis.
That's pretty interesting. Do you get into those Fight Science Discovery Channel shows and shit like that?
Constantly. I love that shit.
I think two things are particularly interesting here:
1. For a long time in many parts of the world, including America, a fist fight was considered the manly way to go about things. My step-dad even told me once that when he was growing up there was no kicking in fighting. Kicking was for cowards and pussies. Real men fight with their fists. It seems that this was not the mind-set of the French.
I don't necessarily buy into that line of thinking by and large. While that's something that was "said" as soon as asian martial arts came to the western world it was like an explosion. Bruce Lee wasn't a total celebrity by accident. As soon as kung fu and other martial arts made their way to Europe/America everyone wanted to learn to look like a ninja while fighting.
Also, I think another thing that may have influenced this is kicks themselves. Not everyone has one punch knockout power in their hands. That much is just a fact in the world. Even professional boxers and fighters seemingly lack that ability to place the shot that puts the other guy to sleep. Anyone, literally anyone over the age of ten years old who isn't a midget has the leg strength to knock someone out/end a conflict with a well placed kick.
2. Considering that Savate was not created strictly as a ring sport with rules, I think it's interesting that there was little to no concern about kicking in a street fight in the sense that kicks take your base away and being wrestled to the ground is a much greater possibility with only one leg supporting all your weight.
Well for john everyman who may not be versed in catch wrestling it wouldn't make a difference is he was throwing punches or kicks against one. His best chance at getting out of there before he's robbed and possibly bleeding is to kick while keeping his hands up to protect his face. Also, distance becomes important in a scuffle involving more than just two people, especially when the odds aren't even. Being swamed on is pretty much a loss for the most part, being able to keep at least one or all of your attackers at a distance to be able to have a free range of motion is imperative for coming out of that kind of situation.
Probably not so well known in the western world, but he was absolutely famous in his city and is still well revered across china through his students and whatnot.
Have you seen the Ip Man movies with Donnie Yen? I've seen the first. Good shit.
This is essentially what I was getting at. There are a few techniques that would need to added/removed from the basic repertoire to be considered "spontaneous-proof" because let's face it. You throw a traditionally trained tang soo do practitioner in some random setting where without warning he's rushed on and attacked by someone and the chances are more or less 50/50 that he's going to come out on top. That may not be a very good concept but it's off the top of My head and I think it would apply beyond a person by person basis.
I think the same is true for a muay Thai guy, though. An MT guy is trained to fight under a very specific set of circumstances--ring, gloves, only one opponent, clearly defined start and end points for rounds, etc.--and MT also also requires modification with the stance to defend takedowns. The other thing about MT that's worth pointing out is that because it's pretty much exclusively a sport, there is no discussion on striking vital targets or anything else that's self-defense related. There's just no mentality for that kind of thing.
Have you seen the Ip Man movies with Donnie Yen? I've seen the first. Good shit.
I saw the first one. I wasn't aware there were more though.
I think the same is true for a muay Thai guy, though. An MT guy is trained to fight under a very specific set of circumstances--ring, gloves, only one opponent, clearly defined start and end points for rounds, etc.--and MT also also requires modification with the stance to defend takedowns. The other thing about MT that's worth pointing out is that because it's pretty much exclusively a sport, there is no discussion on striking vital targets or anything else that's self-defense related. There's just no mentality for that kind of thing.
Well speaking strictly for self defense you may not have to modify the stance at all. It's not especially likely your going to be attacked by a trained individual, since studies show that structured activities like that tend to keep youths out of crime for the most part. As far as vital targets that's only a minor tweak to things, it's still going to be the same basic movements and core motions that are just aimed elsewhere. A jab is still a jab only now it goes to the throat and not the nose, a knee to the gut can be a knee to the groin, etc etc etc.
I don't necessarily buy into that line of thinking by and large. While that's something that was "said" as soon as asian martial arts came to the western world it was like an explosion. Bruce Lee wasn't a total celebrity by accident. As soon as kung fu and other martial arts made their way to Europe/America everyone wanted to learn to look like a ninja while fighting.
This took some time. I mean, Bruce Tegner was writing books on martial arts as early as 1950 and the public was aware of the existence of karate, kung fu and judo, but it wasn't until the 70s that public interest really took off.
Well for john everyman who may not be versed in catch wrestling it wouldn't make a difference is he was throwing punches or kicks against one.
Even an unskilled brawler can just windmill into a guy and knock him down. This isn't especially difficult.
I saw the first one. I wasn't aware there were more though.
If you have Netflix, I believe the second one is up for streaming.
There's also this shit, which I believe is totally separate from the Donnie Yen movies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ramwk_AkhgA
Well speaking strictly for self defense you may not have to modify the stance at all. It's not especially likely your going to be attacked by a trained individual, since studies show that structured activities like that tend to keep youths out of crime for the most part. As far as vital targets that's only a minor tweak to things, it's still going to be the same basic movements and core motions that are just aimed elsewhere. A jab is still a jab only now it goes to the throat and not the nose, a knee to the gut can be a knee to the groin, etc etc etc.
My point is that you'll fight how you train. If you don't regularly put it into your mind to go for those targets, then you'll treat it like a ring fight. Not that it will probably matter in MOST situations. By and large, a skilled MTer will beat the shit out of most guys anyway.
Re: Krav Maga. An interesting post. . .
The thing that gets me about Krav Maga is that it is basically every Traditional Martial Art I've ever seen but with a new name and they swear up and down that it is new.
Then they give you these life or death scenarios that statistically no one would have a chance of surviving and they tell you to hit the guy in the nuts, or rake his eyes, etc. Basically just shit that you could have told yourself to do without paying for it.
I've taken Krav Maga and it's just not impressive. You'd be better off learning boxing, MT, wrestling, or BJJ and just telling yourself that everyonce in a while, you might have to kick someone in the nuts, poke them in the eye, or run the fuck away.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/krav-maga-really-effective-898414/#post27957432
Re: Krav Maga. An interesting post. . .
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/krav-maga-really-effective-898414/#post27957432
Easily the most overall disrespectful to a single system I've ever seen. But like one guy pointed out it's not a sport and it isn't meant to be for competition, it's meant to teach you things to stay alive in spontaneous encounters.
If you have Netflix, I believe the second one is up for streaming.
Watched the second one last night. I didn't like it near as much as the first one, there seemed to be alot more fighting just for the sake of fighting and traditional martial arts movie-esque acrobatics in it. It honestly reminded Me of Jet Li's Fearless.
My point is that you'll fight how you train. If you don't regularly put it into your mind to go for those targets, then you'll treat it like a ring fight. Not that it will probably matter in MOST situations. By and large, a skilled MTer will beat the shit out of most guys anyway.
You have a point here. But even just drilling jabs to the throat or something without actually hitting anything may still do the trick when things become automatic. But yeah, someone who's 2-4 years into muay thai will probably beat the shit out of any unskilled tough guy when push comes to shove. It's amazing how much a little conditioning of the legs makes a difference when being kicked or how a person reacts who's not used to being kicked at all.
Watched the second one last night. I didn't like it near as much as the first one, there seemed to be alot more fighting just for the sake of fighting and traditional martial arts movie-esque acrobatics in it. It honestly reminded Me of Jet Li's Fearless.
I still haven't seen the second. I should give it a watch.
But it's interesting that you brought up Fearless, because that's how I felt about the first one. But not a bad thing, in my opinion, because Fearless was fucking awesome.
I still haven't seen the second. I should give it a watch.
But it's interesting that you brought up Fearless, because that's how I felt about the first one. But not a bad thing, in my opinion, because Fearless was fucking awesome.
I liked Fearless but the first Ip Man seemed like a different kind of martial arts movie. It had the element of "unreal" but it stayed within cognitive reality if that makes sense. There was nobody flying through the air bicycle kicking or performing feats that challenge gravity and physics in the first one. Watch the second one and you'll see why I compared it to Fearless.
Went and checked out a TKD class tonight. I think I might try to do it along with wado.
Billy Blanks getting knocked out. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1hiUHoCzzs
Mr. IWS
01-18-2012, 08:15 AM
^^^^^LOL, he looked terrified right before he got frozen.
BOL. I've actually heard that he was quite the tournament fighter back in the day. Can't find any other vids, though. . .
I didn't even know Blank was a legit martial artist, I thought he just created that persona to help sell those workout videos.
MMA_scientist
01-18-2012, 04:26 PM
TKD is an amalgamation of about 9 or so martial arts schools that opened up in Korea following liberation in 1945 from Japanese occupation. During the occupation, the only martial arts allowed were karate, judo, and kendo. So yes, these nine schools that opened up were basically karate, which the founders of those schools picked up at universities.
About 10 years or so following the liberation, the Korean government felt a need to re-establish a "national Korean identity", so they did away with everything Japanese, including an attempt to merge the nine schools under the name "TKD". That's why sometimes these days you will see "Chang Moo Kwan TKD" or "Moo Duk Kwan TKD", these schools giving a shoutout to whichever lineage they spring from.
"Tang Soo Do" in Korean means the same thing as "Karate", but these days usually refers to the line of schools descending from the Moo Duk Kwan. The forms in this system are Anko Itosu's Heian/Pinan sets, as well as Bassai, Kusanku, Tekki, Lohai, etc, just given Koreanized names (Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Kong Sang Koon, Nai Han Chi, Rohai).
"Korean Karate" is a term popularized by servicemen and Koreans who came over to the US to spread korean martial arts. Since most of today's korean MAs (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Kuk Sul Won, Hwarangdo, etc) all stem from karate, this would be an accurate term.
None of today's modern Korean MA have a direct lineage to the Silla Dynasty, or the Hwarang, or ancient Korea in general. That is all bullshit propaganda to try and give korean MA's some sort of historical cred, which is stupid because take a look at their forms and you can see where exactly they hail from.
The only true Korean MAs these days are taekkyun and ssireum. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit.
Agree?
Taken from this thread:
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/purple-belts-does-annoy-you-little-laymen-dont-take-you-seriously-1970153/index10.html
Starts out about the general gayness of the color purple, but devolves into a TMA history and comparison. Thought you might find it interesting. Pretty good thread
Svino
01-18-2012, 04:46 PM
I didn't even know Blank was a legit martial artist, I thought he just created that persona to help sell those workout videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n1SXg41wZ0
He's wrong on several points. Tang Soo Do doesn't mean "karate" it's a korean translation on chinese wording that means "china hand way" and the Tang is referring to a particular dynasty in china. He is correct that it holds roots in many other arts and that the term had become a generic term for martial arts in general. But it was five schools, not nine, that opened toward the end of the japanese occupation.
I also found it a bit comical that the guy's handle is "eternalrag3" when one of the three main principles of tang soo do has to do with graceful motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n1SXg41wZ0
Too bad he didn't do that neck exercize from 2:45 in on that one fateful night...
I didn't even know Blank was a legit martial artist, I thought he just created that persona to help sell those workout videos.
No, he was the real deal for sure. He just saw an opportunity to make a shitload of money and capitalized, which I don't blame him for. Tae Bo has helped a lot of people get in shape anyway.
I posted this on Sherdog and this is what one guy said in response:
"He and his Brother both won just about everything in the US there was to win. I used to have an old VHS (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=old+vhs) HL video that featured him, and in it he leveled a guy with the same kick he got leveled with there, ironically enough.
He also boxed as an Amateur. If Blanks had continued fighting as a Profession, he would have been very similar to someone like Pete Spratt, or Dewey Cooper, someone who would fight under any rule-set and not care.
And there were rumors that he and Jet Li fought on a movie set, rumors that came out of Hong Kong's stunt circles, which aren't known for lying, just that the two of them didn't get along at all and got into a bit of a scrap."
Did you ever see any of his movies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jna8FblC3dA
Agree?
Taken from this thread:
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/purple-belts-does-annoy-you-little-laymen-dont-take-you-seriously-1970153/index10.html
Starts out about the general gayness of the color purple, but devolves into a TMA history and comparison. Thought you might find it interesting. Pretty good thread
Wow, Scientist, for some reason I'm surprised you even had enough interest to actually post this.
Anyway, the history of TKD is quite complicated and rife with politics and I don't pretend to understand it all. The World Taekwondo Federation (which governs Olympic-style TKD) has an official story about how modern-day TKD is a direct descendant of Korean martial arts that are 2,000 years old. TKDists who actually know anything though agree that while TKD may have been influenced by these styles, it is most directly a descendant of Shotokan karate. Early TKD film clips show something that is very similar to Shotokan and even today ITF TKD is quite similar. (WTF TKD has traveled quite far away from its roots, though.)
But as the poster you quoted mentions, yeah, it was the Korean's hatred for the Japanese that caused them to want to disavow all ties to karate.
Here's a thread where a guy goes off about it, calling Koreans liars and thieves:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100755-curious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n1SXg41wZ0
Fucking BOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Repped.
Svino
01-18-2012, 06:07 PM
Too bad he didn't do that neck exercize from 2:45 in on that one fateful night...
Challenge his martial arts cred all you want, but you can't say the dude didn't know to apply a choke.
Aw shit, Svino bringin' jokes.
No, he was the real deal for sure. He just saw an opportunity to make a shitload of money and capitalized, which I don't blame him for. Tae Bo has helped a lot of people get in shape anyway.
I posted this on Sherdog and this is what one guy said in response:
"He and his Brother both won just about everything in the US there was to win. I used to have an old VHS (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=old+vhs) HL video that featured him, and in it he leveled a guy with the same kick he got leveled with there, ironically enough.
He also boxed as an Amateur. If Blanks had continued fighting as a Profession, he would have been very similar to someone like Pete Spratt, or Dewey Cooper, someone who would fight under any rule-set and not care.
And there were rumors that he and Jet Li fought on a movie set, rumors that came out of Hong Kong's stunt circles, which aren't known for lying, just that the two of them didn't get along at all and got into a bit of a scrap."
Did you ever see any of his movies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jna8FblC3dA
I can't say I have seen his movies, at least not the ones that were martial arts themed.
I wonder who won that scuffle between him and Jet, I also wonder if it was more than them just rolling on the ground screaming at one another too.
Challenge his martial arts cred all you want, but you can't say the dude didn't know to apply a choke.
Looks like Bill can add everything from the shoulder down to the other achievements under his belt.
I can't say I have seen his movies, at least not the ones that were martial arts themed.
It's been a while since I've seen any of them, but I liked them as a kid. He's actually got some pretty slick moves.
I wonder who won that scuffle between him and Jet, I also wonder if it was more than them just rolling on the ground screaming at one another too.
Yeah, who knows. He's about 10 times Jet's size and I don't think Jet has ever done any competitive fighting so I can't imagine it was a real fight considering Jet's still alive.
It's been a while since I've seen any of them, but I liked them as a kid. He's actually got some pretty slick moves.
Yeah, who knows. He's about 10 times Jet's size and I don't think Jet has ever done any competitive fighting so I can't imagine it was a real fight considering Jet's still alive.
I think Jet had potential for it since he won plenty of non sparring Wushu competitions from the age of 12 and on. But There's something to be said for demonstration vs fighting especially against someone who apparently had plenty of success in contact based competitions.
Svino
01-18-2012, 09:16 PM
Yeah, I remember hearing people say things about how Jet Li was a Sanda champ, so I looked it up and was disappointed to see all he did was win a few tournaments for "forms" as a teenager. So basically, he was a childhood dance champion.
I actually did Wushu for a couple of months when I was a teenager. I actually liked it and think that the high-level competitors are very talented and athletic individuals. But don't ever think it has anything to do with fighting. It was actually intentionally created to be something that people couldn't kick ass with. There was a crack down in China against real kung fu, and that's why many of top masters are either in the US or Canada. The Communist Party had wushu created to satiate the people's desire for kung fu, while also assuring that it could never be used against them.
I watched that Fight Quest episode on Wing Chun. A few notes:
1.) Not nearly as "pretty" as the Ip Man movies would have you believe.
2.) It's easy to see it's practical uses, especially in situations where your cornered and don't have alot of room to work.
3.) That "ghost kick" is a sinister invention.
4.) Human Weapon is a better overall show.
I watched that Fight Quest episode on Wing Chun.
Cool. Now go watch the one on Kyokushin.
1.) Not nearly as "pretty" as the Ip Man movies would have you believe.
No, but that's pretty much the way it is with all martial arts. Real fights just don't look like they do in the movies.
2.) It's easy to see it's practical uses, especially in situations where your cornered and don't have alot of room to work.
I think so, too. The interesting thing is that even on forums with a largely traditional bent, like MartialTalk, wing chun doesn't get a lot of respect. People are just like, "Wing chun!!! BOL!!!!!!!!!!!!"
3.) That "ghost kick" is a sinister invention.
I'll need to go back and watch it again to respond intelligently. . .
4.) Human Weapon is a better overall show.
Only for gays. . .
I mean, the hosts for Human Weapon are some football player dude and the douche who runs Shine Fights.
I'll be watching the Pencak Silat one first. Love Me some Moro fighting.
And the Ghost kick was the technique that's essentially a short front kick aimed to the knee or groin thrown at the same exact time as a punch to the face, which masks the kick.
I'll be watching the Pencak Silat one first. Love Me some Moro fighting.
I don't think I even watched that one. That's a prime example of some shit I would watch only when I had run out of everything else.
And the Ghost kick was the technique that's essentially a short front kick aimed to the knee or groin thrown at the same exact time as a punch to the face, which masks the kick.
Oh yeah, that seems vaguely familiar. . .
I've actually always wondered why that strategy hasn't been more of a mainstay in all self-defense based martial arts.
Well you said it before your interest lies in traditional asian arts. I guess I'm a bit of a hipster when it comes to Martial Arts, at least in what interests Me more. I'd rather watch some Pradal Serey, Pankration, or even something on Eskrima before something on TMA.
Oh yeah, that seems vaguely familiar. . .
I've actually always wondered why that strategy hasn't been more of a mainstay in all self-defense based martial arts.
Probably because it's so easy to do serious/permanent damage to the joint that it's almost impossible to practice and therefore not practical to use. One wrong step and your shit could be shattered even in 50% drills or something.
Well you said it before your interest lies in traditional asian arts. I guess I'm a bit of a hipster when it comes to Martial Arts, at least in what interests Me more. I'd rather watch some Pradal Serey, Pankration, or even something on Eskrima before something on TMA.
Yes. My interest is often directly related to the culture from which it sprang. If a style doesn't have a culture and history that's interesting to me then it usually won't get much love.
For me, it usually goes something like:
Karate and TKD
Judo
Kung Fu
MMA (basically a style at this point) and BJJ
Boxing and MT
Savate
Everything Else
Almost everything from Southeast Asia with the exception of MT barely even appears on my radar.
Probably because it's so easy to do serious/permanent damage to the joint that it's almost impossible to practice and therefore not practical to use. One wrong step and your shit could be shattered even in 50% drills or something.
Yeah, but it's like I said before, a lot of performing self-defense moves is mental . . . preparing yourself mentally to do the movement or to strike to certain areas. I mean, it's impractical to strike to ANY of the vital areas, like the groin, the eyes, the throat, etc. but there are drills which simulate doing so and which build up a subconscious suggestion to do so when the shit hits the fan.
Reposting due to awesomeness. I am seriously a fan of this dude's old school ass kicking!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRHQRk0mdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNjGw8j7EgE
And adding. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoJ0p78Tah0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGxWwTiy-ho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Y7MIbw6NE
Yes. My interest is often directly related to the culture from which it sprang. If a style doesn't have a culture and history that's interesting to me then it usually won't get much love.
For me, it usually goes something like:
Karate and TKD
Kung Fu
MMA (basically a style at this point)
Boxing and MT
Savate
Everything Else
Almost everything from Southeast Asia with the exception of MT barely even appears on my radar.
My list looks like:
MMA
Muay Thai
Knife Fighting
Warfare arts(Pankration, Silat, Eskrima, Sambo basically anything that was meant to be used in full scale battles etc etc etc)
Everything else
I mean, I dabble and I like to at least know something about everything just for My own personal knowledge but My interests really are in alot of the stuff that isn't inherently tied to China, Japan, and Korea.
Yeah, but it's like I said before, a lot of performing self-defense moves is mental . . . preparing yourself mentally to do the movement or to strike to certain areas. I mean, it's impractical to strike to ANY of the vital areas, like the groin, the eyes, the throat, etc. but there are drills which simulate doing so and which build up a subconscious suggestion to do so when the shit hits the fan.
Yeah but it's easier to drill strikes to the throat or eyes because those are essentially just aim and go. You can practice those on a dummy or from a safe distance out of arms length from someone and drill the necessary strength for the technique. With something designed to attack the knee or the groin(much heavier areas of the body) you need to drill the exact kind of force in order to properly use it on the fly.
Like alot of kicks you need to practice on something you can actually contact otherwise you won't know if your doing it improperly, which runs a risk of injuring yourself if your someday forced to use it for real. If your not used to the feeling of hitting something solid with the technique you could be in too close and knock yourself off balance, or too far away and hurt your own leg trying to stretch into it. Until you know what it feels like to actually try and push your foot into someone's knee or groin you won't know how much juice to give it before you lose your balance if it doesn't move, or what range is proper for you, etc etc etc.
Because it's extremely unsafe to drill this on a person it's hard to bring it into alot of systems. It's not like putting on a fat suit and drilling a lifting kick to the groin like in a womens self defense class, there's no pad that will stop your knee from hyper-extending and buckling in the event that something goes wrong.
Hmm. . . combative tai chi . . . didn't realize it actually existed. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs
That shit looks hella-fake. Either that or that's the lightest fat guy ever.
I have the same suspicions, but I don't see the big guy intentionally jumping away or anything.
Interesting Bill Wallace seminar . . . gotta love me some Bill Wallace . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8elyh6jbuIg
I have the same suspicions, but I don't see the big guy intentionally jumping away or anything.
No, but that doesn't mean it's not carefully choreographed or anything. For all we know they worked for a few days on that shit. That or the little guy was exposed to gamma radiation.
No, but that doesn't mean it's not carefully choreographed or anything. For all we know they worked for a few days on that shit. That or the little guy was exposed to gamma radiation.
I was thinking more like he was using the principles of a lot of grappling arts when it comes to redirecting force. Also, it's quite possible he could just be a strong motherfucker. It's not like the bigger guy completely dwarfed him.
It could certainly be choreographed. Or it could also just be REAL tai chi in action.
More Bill Wallace action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0xu6jnumU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFlY3fKTV7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_m0_JkcY_0
And why stop there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT_oerTToYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-bjRT3NQUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYHu_4AH0ZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFlEJn1pxSU
"Push it in nice and hard!"
Insane flexibility from Bill Wallace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U8BAn0F_l4
I liked him better when he was still William.
Bill Wallace is fucking awesome. Such a smooth and fast kicker.
Awesome! This is Shotokan, but it's really similar to what I'm learning in wado-ryu. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oQ5ROZC4Yc
Svino
01-22-2012, 02:55 PM
Bill Wallace is fucking awesome. Such a smooth and fast kicker.
He shows great FREEEEEEEEDOM of movement.
Awesome! This is Shotokan, but it's really similar to what I'm learning in wado-ryu. . .
What's the purpose of recoiling the arm all the way back so that the hand is near the ribs after a strike? Actually, why are the arms ever in that position at all?
I didn't know they did full contact.
Some of those techniques looked pretty straightforward but then you had some trip/finishing combos that were badass. That sweep to the lead leg from outside was pretty sick.
What's the purpose of recoiling the arm all the way back so that the hand is near the ribs after a strike? Actually, why are the arms ever in that position at all?
In traditional karate, that's called "chambering" your punch. Coming from the hip and adding the twisting motion to the arm supposedly adds power to the strike. I do believe that is true, but obviously there are downfalls, like the fact that that arm isn't providing any defense and also the strike has quite a ways to travel.
Reverse punches like this are done in kata and line drills and there is a lot of argument as to why. Some say that kata is to personify "perfect form." Others acknowledge its impracticality, but believe that doing traditional deep stances and kata/line drills builds core strength and leg strength. This is, in fact, the position taken by my instructor at my wado dojo.
In wado, we actually have the traditional "strength building" stances--which some say are also transitional stances, as you may transition into such a stance to perform a certain technique and then transition out of it, in free-flowing motion--but we also have an actual "fighting stance," which looks a bit more like a boxing stance with both hands up, kind of like this:
http://www.wado-ryu-karate.com/Kiso_Kumite_13.jpg
Even in the Shotokan vid, though, you notice that during actual kumite (fighting) they have a higher guard, with both hands up. As for why they end certain techniques with the hand back at the hip, I believe this has something to do with having to not only execute a technique in order to get a point but execute it with proper form. If your form is off, no points. But I haven't competed in a karate comp yet, so I'm not totally sure.
I didn't know they did full contact.
Technically, they don't. Techniques are supposed to executed with control. But from what I understand, if someone runs into your punch or kick and gets knocked out then that's their fault, provided the judge doesn't believe you did it intentionally. Also, I believe that there's a lot more leeway with black belts than there is with colored belts, and it can essentially become full contact at that level.
Some of those techniques looked pretty straightforward but then you had some trip/finishing combos that were badass. That sweep to the lead leg from outside was pretty sick.
Yeah, you know a lot of people think of karate as being a "flashy" art, but it's really not. There are some flashy kicks like the spinning heel kick, but for the most part it relies on basic techniques. What sets it apart is the philosophy which governs a lot of movement, in that a lot of it is about evading your opponent's attacks and counter-attacking. Especially in Shotokan, there is a lot of emphasis on the lunging punch, and you see it constantly in the video where guys stay on the outside and then jump in to strike. This is exactly where Machida's "elusiveness" comes from.
And yeah, the trips are cool. I'm looking forward to learning that shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQBBSLtReNk
For interested parties. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhEhtpdWDJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy5wVV6Gql8
Technically, they don't. Techniques are supposed to executed with control. But from what I understand, if someone runs into your punch or kick and gets knocked out then that's their fault, provided the judge doesn't believe you did it intentionally. Also, I believe that there's a lot more leeway with black belts than there is with colored belts, and it can essentially become full contact at that level.
I don't know. Alot of the shit in that video looked like they were going full on with most of those punches. No open hand strikes or anything like that. I think I even saw some aimed low toward the throat but that could just be the camera angle.
Yeah, you know a lot of people think of karate as being a "flashy" art, but it's really not. There are some flashy kicks like the spinning heel kick, but for the most part it relies on basic techniques. What sets it apart is the philosophy which governs a lot of movement, in that a lot of it is about evading your opponent's attacks and counter-attacking. Especially in Shotokan, there is a lot of emphasis on the lunging punch, and you see it constantly in the video where guys stay on the outside and then jump in to strike. This is exactly where Machida's "elusiveness" comes from.
The misconception probably comes from the various "styles" of kung fu and the failure to separate effective martial arts from form demo's and the movies(mostly the movies).
I don't know. Alot of the shit in that video looked like they were going full on with most of those punches. No open hand strikes or anything like that. I think I even saw some aimed low toward the throat but that could just be the camera angle.
I can promise you that somewhere in a rulebook it says that competitors are to use "controlled contact," but I like I mentioned, at the black belt level competitors are given a lot of leeway.
Not sure you saw this when I posted it earlier, but this is the same kind of competition. You'll see that some hard hits happen, but some of the punches are obviously pulled as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=292RJFjGCKA
The misconception probably comes from the various "styles" of kung fu and the failure to separate effective martial arts from form demo's and the movies(mostly the movies).
Yeah, I'm sure. Everything in the movies is overdone . . . not that I blame them for that. I mean, shit looks a lot cooler when dudes are flying through the air and spinning and shit.
I also think that taekwondo has something to do with it. TKD is inherently a flashier style and I think that a lot of people don't really make a distinction in their minds between TKD and karate.
I mean, just watch this video and compare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xlfb4H0iww
Thought this was cool, and these guys look like they could break some sternums. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKIXUmPjYg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl81ldNODc
So I've officially joined a WTF/Olympic-style TKD class. So I'm going to be doing both wado-ryu and TKD.
Prepare for lulz:
http://www.taekwondo-training.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=497
Prepare for lulz:
http://www.taekwondo-training.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=497
BOL. Didn't we just discuss that "one kick one kill" shit like a week ago? Pure ridiculousness to use a hodge podge sport like MMA as a basis for a system not being seen at it's purest in said sport. That would be like Me saying TKD is almost completely useless because we've only seen about three fights ended by a TKD technique in MMA history. Or that Judo isn't as effective as brazilian jiu jitsu because there has never been a Judoka holding a major MMA title.
Those peeps are retarded. Or more fairly, just ignorant. They live in a fantasy world where grappling doesn't exist and the UFC never happened.
My official position: With MT, you get a more powerful kick, but it's generally a bit slower and more telegraphed. With TKD, kicks are generally a bit faster but less powerful. That's the trade-off. Which one is better? I guess it depends on the situation.
In any case, like we've discussed, one kick or punch CAN end any fight . . . but to EXPECT it to? LOL.
That would be like Me saying TKD is almost completely useless because we've only seen about three fights ended by a TKD technique in MMA history.
To be fair, TKD has punches, knees, elbows, and roundhouse kicks, so. . .
To be fair, TKD has punches, knees, elbows, and roundhouse kicks, so. . .
But you don't kick the leg or the side of the body with your foot unless your using the heel of your foot. The ankle doesn't have the kind of weight it needs nor does the foot have the kind of durability needed to produce effective results to those areas without a high risk of hurting yourself in the process. Broken toes/feet are the bane of kicks as a whole.
The headkick KO, while awesome, is more and more rare because it's hard to fire off with alot of power without telegraphing it. If you flick it up there you'll land more of them but they won't have the kind of "oomph" you need.
But you don't kick the leg or the side of the body with your foot unless your using the heel of your foot. The ankle doesn't have the kind of weight it needs nor does the foot have the kind of durability needed to produce effective results to those areas without a high risk of hurting yourself in the process. Broken toes/feet are the bane of kicks as a whole.
That's really not true. Also, you have to remember that the instep (i.e. the top of the foot) is only ONE striking surface with the TKD roundhouse . . . TKDers (and karate fighters, for that matter) also learn to strike with the ball of the foot.
That's really not true. Also, you have to remember that the instep (i.e. the top of the foot) is only ONE striking surface with the TKD roundhouse . . . TKDers (and karate fighters, for that matter) also learn to strike with the ball of the foot.
You won't find many people trying to kick the legs or the abdomen with the top of the foot. They prefer to use the heel for those areas, and for good reason, because of the mass involved. Kick the side of the stomach with the top of your foot and your either going to hurt your foot/ankle while the other guy doesn't feel as much of it because not enough of your inertia has been transferred safely. Your foot has now stopped but the rest of your leg wants to keep going. Imagine your swinging a baseball bat, after you've hit the ball the bat doesn't just want to stop right there, you have to, at least to some degree, let it continue the arc.
The leg has a bit of the same thing going on and more. Kicking the quad will probably have the same effect, and kicking below that has the top of your foot which contains several small bones with very limited padding contacting possibly the knee(and the knee wins that battle most of the time via being bigger, thicker, and with more weight to stabilize it).
I know the heel and ball of the foot are used but I was referring mostly to round kick.
Okay, two things. . .
1. Don't get too caught up in your Fight Science documentaries. I'll kick the shit out of your ribs with the instep. Look at your own foot. Examine it. There's a spot right about where the ankle meets the foot that's quite strong.
2. I was talking about the round kick when I said that in TKD you learn to kick 2 ways: with the instep and with the ball. Observe (note: the "turning kick" is the ITF name for the roundhouse):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoJNGNq-crU
Holy shit, I just paid $200 for this motherfucker on Amazon. It better be worth it.
http://www.amazon.com/Century-1557-VersaFlex-Stretching-Machine/dp/B000EZYT7Q
MMA_scientist
01-27-2012, 10:22 AM
^^ I have one of those I would have given you. Not that exact one, but similar (has a wheel crank). They do work, but you have to be patient. IME if you dedicate the same amount of time to a good stretching routine, you see the same results.
If you ever are thinking about buying gear, hit me up first. I have a lot of gear, including striking stuff. Contrary to the shit I say in here, I actually do know how to strike and used to train it a lot. But I just don't have a lot of interest in it, so I quit. But I have focus mitts, heavy bag, speed bag, headache bag (which I have 2 and I actually use that one still, IMO, the the headache bag is totally underutilized), boxing gloves, etc. I don't use it or want it, I will send it to you if you are going to keep training... I am not donating to a pussy quitter to sell on Cl though
Cool, Scientist. Thanks for the heads up. I will keep that in mind.
And hopefully the VersaFlex will help me out. I REALLY need to improve my flexibility. I can't kick for shit right now.
A press release from last year from my new TKD school:
http://meteorwebmarketing.com/Documents/PR%20July%2021%202011%20Pace%20Academy%20SLC.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cjm7g72-Yc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gloGY3UDZDo
Just when you thought it was safe to be a banana tree.
Well that was pretty crazy. . .
Well that was pretty crazy. . .
The fuck you been, nergo?
Sulking after getting my ass kicked last weekend.
Sulking after getting my ass kicked last weekend.
Been there. You'll make it up this weekend. Year of the win!
Been there. You'll make it up this weekend.
Thanks. I hope so. It sucks after starting off well for the first couple of events.
Year of the win!
Hope so.
Thanks. I hope so. It sucks after starting off well for the first couple of events.
Just remember that it's early. Anything that doesn't go well right now can be corrected.
So I acquired Machida's "Karate-Do for Mixed Martial Arts" series. I've watched a little bit of it and shit is the bomb.
One review on Amazon from 2009 stood out to me, though. It says:
". . . on the first two discs he also offers a whole slew of techniques and combinations that neither he nor anybody else has EVER successfully employed in MMA competition. Spinning hook kick anyone? How about some jumping front kick combinations? A bit too much traditional karate here, and too little focus on high percentage MMA application."
While I understand the sentiment at the time, it's kind of ironic in light of Machida's kick on Couture and Barboza's kick on Etim. I'll also point out that by 2009 plenty of guys had landed a spinning hook kick in MMA, just not in the UFC.
So I acquired Machida's "Karate-Do for Mixed Martial Arts" series. I've watched a little bit of it and shit is the bomb.
One review on Amazon from 2009 stood out to me, though. It says:
". . . on the first two discs he also offers a whole slew of techniques and combinations that neither he nor anybody else has EVER successfully employed in MMA competition. Spinning hook kick anyone? How about some jumping front kick combinations? A bit too much traditional karate here, and too little focus on high percentage MMA application."
While I understand the sentiment at the time, it's kind of ironic in light of Machida's kick on Couture and Barboza's kick on Etim. I'll also point out that by 2009 plenty of guys had landed a spinning hook kick in MMA, just not in the UFC.
Well the thing is that traditional karate base is exactly what got Machida to the top. The sumo/jiu jitsu/judo mix helped him stay off the ground for sure but it was the karate base that allowed him to fire kicks with no chambering or wind up, it helped him control distance, and allowed him to work from angles that aren't conventional by western standards.
Point blank Machida has opened alot of eyes about the real effectiveness of shotokan.
On a side note. I watched something on Bokator last night. Pretty interesting shit to say the least. It's an ancient Cambodian art used by the armies in Angkor before it was abandoned. It incorporates everything from punches and kicks and knees and elbows to takedowns and submissions as well as various lethal techniques like a downward elbow to the crown of the head. Not to mention it uses various stances based off of animals much like kung fu. I found it very interesting.
Mr. IWS
02-02-2012, 02:39 PM
On a side note. I watched something on Bokator last night.
Its a good Org. The Chander/Alvarez fight a while back was one of the better fights I have seen.
::handshake::
Its a good Org. The Chander/Alvarez fight a while back was one of the better fights I have seen.
::handshake::
BOL. I see what you did there.
Well the thing is that traditional karate base is exactly what got Machida to the top. The sumo/jiu jitsu/judo mix helped him stay off the ground for sure but it was the karate base that allowed him to fire kicks with no chambering or wind up, it helped him control distance, and allowed him to work from angles that aren't conventional by western standards.
Point blank Machida has opened alot of eyes about the real effectiveness of shotokan.
Indeed, sir.
Certainly karate is not the only martial arts knowledge that Machida has, but if you know what to look for, his stand up just screams karate. Every once in a while some dude will show up on Sherdog and make a post that says something like, "Get real! What Machida does is NOT karate! I did karate for two years and I assure you that what he's doing is not Shotokan!"
Of course his Shotokan has required a bit of tweaking for MMA, but you've already mentioned all the ways in which the way he moves and fights lines up with karate and not other striking styles.
On a side note. I watched something on Bokator last night. Pretty interesting shit to say the least. It's an ancient Cambodian art used by the armies in Angkor before it was abandoned. It incorporates everything from punches and kicks and knees and elbows to takedowns and submissions as well as various lethal techniques like a downward elbow to the crown of the head. Not to mention it uses various stances based off of animals much like kung fu. I found it very interesting.
Sounds interesting. I've never heard of it.
Where did you watch it?
For anyone who's interested, here's some info on Machida's DVD series:
LYOTO MACHIDA
Volume 1
Movement and Fundamental Strikes
© Marc Wickert May 8, 2009
w[...]
One thing that makes Lyoto Machida so unique in the world of mixed martial arts is that he has risen to the top whilst using a traditionally-based martial arts system.
Lyoto commences Volume 1with basic stretching exercises before using his brother Chinzo Machida to demonstrate the below techniques. `The Dragon' also spars with Chinzo at the end of each strike segment to illustrate how he puts it all together in free-flowing combos.
As with all Victory Belt books, all techniques are displayed from a variety of angles for more clarity.
* Movement: Shows the viewer how to develop a practical base, to make the movements flow freely, and how to close the gap when attacking. Being able to switch stance from orthodox to southpaw and to launch strikes from both stances is recommended. Pivoting whilst attacking, defending and counterattacking is demonstrated.
* Kicks: A wide variety of kicking weapons are illustrated. Lyoto shows how to use one's legs for defense by keeping opponents at a distance through powerful kicks and the use of evasive pivoting and cutting angles. He showcases kicks on mitts, focus pads, Thai pads and whilst sparring, and explains the best method to set up decoy strikes before landing devastating kicks. This section also reveals how to set up sweeps when one's opponent is most vulnerable.
* Punches: Lyoto possesses an extensive arsenal of punches and he shows what part of the hand to impact with in order to maximize damage delivered whilst minimizing damage to one's hand. Other techniques include: maintaining an effective guard, faking strikes to set up bigger punches, correct posture when delivering punches, and punch and kick combos. Machida then demonstrates how to deliver explosive finishing punches.
* Elbows: A wide variety of elbow techniques are illustrated from an even wider variety of angles. The viewer is shown the best methods for unleashing long-range and close-range elbow strikes, juicy targets to zone in on, how to set up spinning elbows, as well as employing elbows for attacking, defending, counterattacking, and countering kicks with elbows.
* Knees: Machida explains the difference between good and bad knees, then reveals how to set up knee strikes, tactics to close the gap before delivering the strikes, and the best ways to combine other strikes with knees. Flying knees and clinching to unload knees are also demonstrated before Lyoto mixes it up in a sparring session with Chinzo while incorporating all of the above techniques.
* Katas: Machida performs four katas that are both strenuous workouts and include powerhouse strikes and blocks. The last two katas are more complex and are shown at both normal speed and in slow motion.
And this is all on the first disc!
Mr. IWS
02-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Where did you watch it?
Used to be on MTV2, now I think its on spike.
LYOTO MACHIDA
Volume 2
Striking Attacks and Takedowns
© Marc Wickert May 15, 2009
[...]
In Volume 1 Lyoto Machida began fusing his wide variety of strikes together to create destructive combos, and in Volume 2 he weaves together more powerhouse combos that are suitable for both MMA competition and street defense.
Again, as with all Victory Belt books, all techniques on this DVD are displayed from a variety of angles for complete clarity.
* Break and Enter: Lyoto shows how to break an opponent's guard and provide a corridor for unloading strikes. He then demonstrates the use of decoy tactics to set up primary hits, the use of low and high kicks, and combos incorporating all weapons earlier employed.
* Combos: Machida serves up more combos here than a Chinese chow mein restaurant, including attacks to the body and head, fighting same-stance opponents, fighting opposite-stance opponents, and correct positioning of shoulders to avoid telegraphing one's strikes.
* Mixed Bag: Lyoto reveals a variety of offensive sequences whilst altering the speed of strikes and the height of the targets he zones in on to keep his opponent on edge and guessing. Other areas covered are attacking off centerline and the use of closing distance with combos, which are particularly effective against adversaries with a reach advantage.
* Mind Game Techniques: Here Machida unlocks a vault of sneaky tactics to disrupt an opponent's focus and unsettle his balance. He also incorporates blinding decoy strikes to set up heavier shots and maneuvers that distract and confuse the enemy before punishing them with power blows.
* Pad Drills: Lyoto works with his brother, Chinzo, to illustrate 10 focus-pad drills and 11 Thai-pad drills for the viewer to practice. The pair also covers hand-trapping sweeps, and scoop sweeps against same-stance opponents and opposite-stance opponents.
* Machida Medley: Lyoto and Chinzo perform a medley of all of the above techniques to showcase their unique methods of combining devastating firepower with debilitating takedowns.
Although this DVD represents one disc from the 4 DVD Box Set, all four volumes are interrelated and blend perfectly to reveal the secrets of one of MMA's most destructive gladiators.
LYOTO MACHIDA
Volume 3
Intercepting Attacks, Takedown Defense, & The Clinch
© Marc Wickert May 20, 2009
[...]
In Volumes 1and 2 Lyoto Machida focuses a lot on the dynamics involved in delivering crushing strikes. Volume 3 flows on from the previous DVDs, explaining how to use timing and distance to deliver those blows with maximum impact to your opponent and minimum risk to oneself.
Also covered on this disc are launching counterattacks, defending against takedowns, and fighting from the clinch.
During the introduction to Volume 3, Lyoto states: "In addition to learning the basic techniques, it is also very important that you focus on timing. As you will soon see, timing is very, very important. If your timing is off, utilizing one of the countering measures I lay out could be hazardous: instead of evading your opponent's attack and landing one of your own, you suffer the hit.
"Along these same lines, it is very important to develop a keen sense of distance. If you attempt to throw a kick and there's not adequate distance between you and your opponent, again you will suffer rather than your opponent," says Machida.
* Intercepting Attacks: Lyoto reveals how to base your counter responses on your opponent's movements, and how to fight at long range in order to read those movements. Other techniques covered include closing range with strikes, and combining blocking with footwork.
Lyoto incorporates the above techniques in a sparring session with Chinzo before illustrating how to intercept round kicks, jabs, rear hooks and looping punches.
* Countering Takedowns: Machida demonstrates takedown defense through sprawling and redirecting your opponent's energy, fist and knee intercepts, and Thai clinching and counter attacks. He also focuses on counters to single- and double-leg takedowns before applying all of the above tactics in a spar with his brother.
* Clinching: This section deals with establishing the Thai clinch and delivering knee strikes, use of Thai clinches to off balance your opponent, and elbow strikes from the clinch.
* Basic Overhook-Underhook Positioning: Lyoto demonstrates striking from over-under, inside knee blocks and leg trips from the clinch, double underhook takedowns, and basic clinch defense.
As the rear cover states, "If your goal is to steer the direction of a fight and inflict damage without taking abuse, this DVD is for you."
LYOTO MACHIDA
Volume 4
The Ground Game
© Marc Wickert May 23, 2009
[...]
As with the three previous volumes, Lyoto commences this disc with appropriate stretching exercises to prepare practitioners for his upcoming techniques.
* Attacking the Downed Opponent: Lyoto reveals a variety of weapons at one's disposal, and methods for delivering them whilst avoiding up-kicks. He also demonstrates how to apply a nasty foot-lock submission.
* G'N'P from Full Guard: Machida shows how to keep your hands free to ground and pound while pinning your opponent down. He then illustrates ways to strike an adversary from the guard and employ optimal dynamics, and tactics to pass the guard and move to side control or the mount.
* G'N'P from Half Guard: Lyoto covers positioning to avoid counter submissions, and the strategy of varying the targets you select in order to confuse your opponent. Other techniques shown include: submissions from half guard, passing half guard, leg locks from half guard, and ways to escape your opponent's kimura attempts before submitting him with an arm bar.
* G'N'P from Side Control: `The Dragon' runs through straight g'n'p, knee-on-belly positioning, arm traps, immobilizing one's opponent to apply submissions, and side control to mount transitions.
* G'N'P from Mount: Techniques covered include stabilizing your mount position, pinning your opponent whilst unloading g'n'p, and setting up submissions from the mount.
* Taking Opponent's Back: Machida explains how to create openings and to submit adversaries through rear naked chokes, arm bars and katagatames.
* Defending from the Ground: Lyoto demonstrates ways to avoid a prolonged closed guard, how to use your feet and knees to hamper your opponent's attack, and methods to control his hands and arms. Sweeps and submissions from below are also illustrated.
* Ground Escapes: Machida finishes off this section with tactics for escaping some of grappling's and MMA's most basic submissions, including arm bars, triangle chokes, guillotines and rear naked chokes.
It's no coincidence Lyoto Machida shot straight to the top of MMA whilst notching up a perfect 15-0-0 record and earning the UFC Light Heavyweight Championship Title. This 4 DVD Box Set provides a golden opportunity for ultimate fighting enthusiasts to train alongside one of the very best in the business.
Sounds interesting. I've never heard of it.
Where did you watch it?
http://www.youtube.com/user/brooklynmonk1
Used to be on MTV2, now I think its on spike.
Your mom's on Spike. Get the fuck out unless you want to talk about Machida.
http://www.youtube.com/user/brooklynmonk1
Thanks. I'll have to check that out.
Mr. IWS
02-02-2012, 03:09 PM
Your mom's on Spike. Get the fuck out unless you want to talk about Machida.
http://art110.wikispaces.com/file/view/okay_face.jpg/228643810/okay_face.jpg
More specifically:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmXIDLIHcfM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLEB2A15DCBD965547
http://art110.wikispaces.com/file/view/okay_face.jpg/228643810/okay_face.jpg
BOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More specifically:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmXIDLIHcfM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLEB2A15DCBD965547
Okay, cool. I'll give it a look tonight.
Interesting article on Machida before the Evans fight:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/5/18/878765/lyoto-machida-is-not-necessarily
Interesting Q&A with Lyoto's dad:
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/1/20-Questions-for-the-Machida-Patriarch-20388
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8sapMW_W6ok/S0zdd1YmDBI/AAAAAAAABnU/wMHYuV6FCt4/s400/20091020104820_picture_533.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8sapMW_W6ok/S0zdd1YmDBI/AAAAAAAABnU/wMHYuV6FCt4/s400/20091020104820_picture_533.jpg
http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt288/thelinx/96cleu.jpg
Watched the Bokator vid. Pretty interesting. It actually looks like a lot like the depiction of MT in Ong Bak.
I also noticed that about halfway through part 2 the guy does what looks like a kata, which is interesting because I don't think most people associate pre-arranged movement sets with Southeast asian martial arts.
Ludo, you should go do that one month certificate program.
Watched the Bokator vid. Pretty interesting. It actually looks like a lot like the depiction of MT in Ong Bak.
I also noticed that about halfway through part 2 the guy does what looks like a kata, which is interesting because I don't think most people associate pre-arranged movement sets with Southeast asian martial arts.
Ludo, you should go do that one month certificate program.
I don't have the money to go to Cambodia for a month. Plus I think I'm too tall for most of those techniques. Even Antonio was having trouble with the low attacks and he doesn't look much taller than the guy he's fighting. I'm 6'2".
Just got done watching Ong Bak 2. Not as good as the first one, but still pretty good. Tony Jaa is crazy.
I don't think I've seen any of the Ong Bak sequels. I need to check them out.
Did you see The Protector? That's a crazy fucking movie.
I was going to but I saw alot of bad reviews on it so I wasn't sure if I should bother.
Mr. IWS
02-07-2012, 04:53 PM
Im 12 years old and what is this?
I was going to but I saw alot of bad reviews on it so I wasn't sure if I should bother.
I definitely wouldn't call it a "good" movie, but it does have some good action (the Game of Death inspired scene where Tony Jaa is going from floor to floor in this building kicking the shit out of everyone) as well as some very unintentional lulz (rollerblade warriors, Tony Jaa giving too much of a fuck about elephants).
I'd say it's at least worth watching once.
Im 12 years old and what is this?
What?
Yeah what is Jaa's obsession with elephants? There are two scenes in Ong Bak 2 where elephants are needlessly injected into the movie.
Dude, I don't know but he's clearly all about them. When I realized that The Protector was all about him and elephants, I was like WTF?!
WHERE ARE MY ELEPHANTS?!?!
The Protector is hilarious.
Oh yeah, and that one scene where's he going floor-to-floor asskicking is like 4 minutes long and all done in ONE SHOT.
Also,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8DGa-MBz4
According to IMDB, he is currently filming The Protector 2.
I actually wonder if he can make a movie without elephants. I mean, seriously. Dude. Just make a normal movie without any fucking elephants. Just ONCE.
Oh yeah, and that one scene where's he going floor-to-floor asskicking is like 4 minutes long and all done in ONE SHOT.
Hell yeah! That shit was bad ass.
I'm actually interested in watching the movie again just for that scene.
Also,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8DGa-MBz4
Fuckin' BOL!!!!!!
Yeah I enjoyed it. I saw it around when it came out and completely forgot about it.
Watched Ong Bak 3 today as well. It carries over from 2 and is the most unrealistic of the series, but I still maintain that Tony Jaa is a stunt genius. I noticed his style isn't purely thai based, I saw what looked to be elements of wing chun in there with simultaneous defense and attack but I enjoyed the action.
Watching the Protector now. I'm fucking laughing at this Rumble in the Bronx scene in the factory with the motorcycles and fluorescent light bulbs because it's awesome but so clearly a homage to Jackie Chan.
Why is Jonah Hill eating scorpions at the top of the game of death scene?
BOL at Nathan Jones being in this shit.
Elephant bone tonfas? Hilarity.
BOL at this whole page! Elephant tonfas!
I should re-watch The Protector and the Ong Bak sequels.
Ludo, you have to give me a full review when you get done.
BTW, the guy in the final fight of the Game of Death scene (Johnny Nguyen) has a really interesting resume:
Johnny left Vietnam at the age of 8, uncertain of what destination lied ahead. As a boy, he already loved Hong Kong cinema. Johnny would soon start training in martial arts and now has over 18 years of experience in Kung Fu, Tai Chi and Japanese Aikido. Johnny is now also an expert in Wushu, which he does for over 10 years. Johnny has won a gold medal from Pan America Form and Sword.
However, having many skills, hobbies and interests, Johnny is mainly known here for his martial arts skills and acting. Now he has had a big breakthrough as an actor in Cradle 2 the Grave, next to Jet Li and Mark Dacascos. Johnny is an accomplished stuntman. Johnny is getting more popular as an actor and stuntman who has now shown his skills and may be one of the next stars on screen.
Recently, Johnny was seen in XMA, Mike Chat's Extreme Martial Arts, performing with weapons, fights and acrobatics. Getting more and more lead roles, Johnny also stars opposites the new legendary action star Tony Jaa and is also asked as a stunt coordinator.
For some reason I thought he was a TKD guy.
BOL at this whole page! Elephant tonfas!
I should re-watch The Protector and the Ong Bak sequels.
Ludo, you have to give me a full review when you get done.
I am done. Overall the movie was decent but some of that shit was very "left field". His infatuation with elephants is pretty bizarre. His insight for fight sequences thought is probably second to none. The fact that he did alot of this stuff as I understand it without ropes is pretty fucking amazing for a guy his size. But some of the stuff seems just too "happenstance"-y for My liking. The elephant tonfas, the whole thing with Ong Bak 3(which I won't go into just yet since you haven't seen it), too much of it seemed to be manufactured rather than creatively worked from the story itself.
Indeed. Well I'm glad you watched it and I appreciate your feedback. I remember thinking the trailer looked bad ass and was then disappointed with the movie. But it does have its moments, like the Game of Death scene.
Speaking of the trailer, it COMPLETELY leaves out any shit about elephants. False advertising. Instead of The Protector, it should be called Where's My Elephant?!
In honor of watching shit we've talked about, I'm going to go ahead and roll Ip Man 2.
Yeah I'm still having trouble grasping what his deal is with the elephants. If this had been the only movie with them I'd not be phased really but now that I've seen this everything else is starting to make more, and at the same time less, sense to Me.
Watching Ip Man. . .
Why the fuck is the white man ALWAYS made out to be the conscienceless dickhead. . .
Just finished Ip Man 2. I guess I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this one Ludo, because I think I actually enjoyed it MORE than the first. While some of the fight scenes, as you mentioned, include more wire work and unrealistic kind of shit, I'm cool with that. That's what I expect from Asian cinema and that's really why I watch kung fu movies . . . to see awesome-though-admittedly-fantastical depictions of martial arts.
What's particularly awesome about movies is that they can make kung fu look awesome. All the dudes in this shit practiced a different style. I think I saw praying mantis, hung gar, pa kua, and wing chun, at least. And yet, it all looked quite deadly. It makes me really wonder if there are some kung fu dudes out there who really understand their art who are really bad ass.
Overall, I was down.
Well there were other styles represented in the first movie. Such as the master Ip spars with in the first scene to kick things off, the traveling hoodlum gang leader, and the overtly up-played karate used by the japanese general. But now I suppose you see why I compared it to Fearless.
Nergo, sounds like you're talking about the FIRST Ip Man. . .
I AM talking about the first one. You mentioned that there were other styles represented as though it wasn't as prominent in the first movie. I'm just saying that was half of the message behind the movies themselves was not only the life and times of Yip Man but the superiority of Wing Chun compared to other styles of the time.
Oh, gotcha. Well it's been a while since I've seen the first one. I do remember there was an obvious kung fu/karate dichotomy going on.
I liked the 2nd one, though. I thought it was a fun movie. Maybe more entertaining than the first, like I said. I was pretty pulled in from the beginning, when the dude challenged him, got his ass kicked, and became his student.
BTW, you ever see Dragon: The Bruce Lee story? I saw it in the theater way back in the day . . . watching it again right now.
I love that movie. Jason Scott Lee killed that shit. They really did a great job retelling his life in that shit.
Fuck yeah!
It's awesome. Not exactly accurate as far as Bruce Lee's real-life story goes. But I find it entertaining and Jason Scott Lee does a damn good job.
Well if they went 100% it wouldn't have come out as good. People would have thought he was a psycho if they saw him hooking car batteries to himself to fight the current in his back yard and shit.
My biggest concern is including the whole bit with the brothers, where he gets his back broken and all that shit. As you may know, he hurt his back lifting weights . . . not in some honor duel. And that whole thing was a MAJOR part of the movie.
Funnily enough, the copy I downloaded last night was apparently ripped from a laserdisc, because there's a whole little featurette about Bruce at the beginning that's narrated by Linda, and she's all like, "In this special laserdisc version of the film. . ." But she goes on to say that she endorses the film and embraces it. But I'd really be curious to know how she actually feels about the embellishments.
My biggest concern is including the whole bit with the brothers, where he gets his back broken and all that shit. As you may know, he hurt his back lifting weights . . . not in some honor duel. And that whole thing was a MAJOR part of the movie.
Funnily enough, the copy I downloaded last night was apparently ripped from a laserdisc, because there's a whole little featurette about Bruce at the beginning that's narrated by Linda, and she's all like, "In this special laserdisc version of the film. . ." But she goes on to say that she endorses the film and embraces it. But I'd really be curious to know how she actually feels about the embellishments.
I doubt she'd ever come out publicly about that. If nothing else she'd want people to keep celebrating the legend of Bruce Lee, regardless of what that legend really is for the people who don't know anything about him other than that movie.
Speaking of Bruce Lee . . . new documentary that's apparently doing a lot of one-night-one-time only showings around the US. It's coming here Feb. 9. I'm definitely going to have to peep that shit.
Website: http://iambruceleemovie.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgjo9Wm0sg
Speaking of Bruce Lee . . . new documentary that's apparently doing a lot of one-night-one-time only showings around the US. It's coming here Feb. 9. I'm definitely going to have to peep that shit.
Website: http://iambruceleemovie.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgjo9Wm0sg
You don't remember the emails about that like a year ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM17URoyKbk&feature=player_embedded#t=313s
You don't remember the emails about that like a year ago?
I remember it was a bunch of short clips with MMA fighters, not a full blown theatrical documentary.
I remember it was a bunch of short clips with MMA fighters, not a full blown theatrical documentary.
Once Frank Mir said he thought he would win a fight between him and a tiger they probably figured it was best to cut losses and go in a new direction.
BOL! So actually watched that shit? I remember you not having much interest. . .
I didn't watch it. Is that Frank Mir segment actually in there? That shit is from like five years ago during an interview he did.
Oh, I don't remember, I was taking your word for it.
Oh, I don't remember, I was taking your word for it.
Conformist.
Here you go X. Go buy you a ticket
http://iambruceleemovie.com/
Here you go X. Go buy you a ticket
http://iambruceleemovie.com/
I did. Saw that shit earlier. It was great.
GodDAMN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6TovX4_ddE
Mr. IWS
02-10-2012, 02:40 PM
^^^^^Was gonna say work, until they slowed it down and that niggas head went back and to the left like JFK.
GodDAMN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6TovX4_ddE
The sound of the initial impact of foot to skull was sick. It sounded like he smacked him with a brick.
That guy got kicked into oblivion. It's a good thing for kicker dude that the guy's skull didn't get broken into pieces all over the pavement. Could be a legal nightmare.
. . . and that niggas head went back and to the left like JFK.
BOL!
Yeah that had subdural hemotoma written all over it with the two impacts happening so close together, dude has a concussion for sure but he's lucky the guy didn't die or something. His head hit the ground hard as fuck.
That's one of the things that scares me the most about getting into a street fight. Even if you win, you can still lose.
I did. Saw that shit earlier. It was great.
To elaborate. . .
I've seen documentaries on Bruce in the past, have watched most of his movies, have read The Tao of Jeet Kune Do, and once read a biography on him. And even though I am already quite familiar with him, there were still some surprises about his life, some footage that I had never before seen, and some good reflections both from people who knew him personally (Linda Lee, Dan Inosanto, Gene LeBell, Shannon Lee, Bob Wall) and those who did not but who were influenced by him in some way (Mickey Rourke, Dana White, Jon Jones, Cung Le, Stephan Bonnar, Kobe Bryant, and some others who I had never heard of).
All in all, I thought it was really well done and thought it was kind of cool to be part of this little event that was a two-night only thing in my city.
That's one of the things that scares me the most about getting into a street fight. Even if you win, you can still lose.
Well thats the danger with things like techniques designed to drop a guy flat like that, the skull is actually built like an egg in that it can withstand alot of force in the frontal and back lobes and is weaker on the sides, but the brain is not. Sudden jolts like that can cause things like subdural hematoma(bleeding between the layers of the brain, which is pretty much fatal) or concussions, or even fractured skulls if the surface is hard enough. But yeah, if the guy dies you get thrown in jail for manslaughter or maybe worse if it comes out that he's trained, which makes his hands and feet lethal weapons.
I think that lethal weapon shit is just an urban myth. . .
I think that lethal weapon shit is just an urban myth. . .
You might be right about that. But during some quick googling on the subject I found some funny shit about ADW in California(Assault with a Deadly Weapon).
Not in CA. That's an old wives' tale about registering your hands. What are they going to do? Tattoo a serial number on them so they can trace them in case they're stolen?
We have Penal Code 245 = ADW (Assault with Deadly Weapon) which is a wobbler charge (M/F) that gets used when someone kicks another person in the head with a shoe.
Promise not to laugh... but the standard report reads, "Suspect knocked victim to ground. Suspect then kicked victim on the left side of the head with his right foot, causing victim to fall backwards and lose consciousness. Suspect was wearing heavy leather shoes with lug soles during the altercation."
We charge PC245. Under weapon... it will say, "SHOD FOOT". No joke. Then there's the GBI (Great Bodily Injury) enhancement if serious injury resulted.
No martial arts needed, just shoes. Sorry to those of you who spent thousands buying your black belt from the local dojo. Next time you kick someone in the head in CA, make sure you are barefoot. I think you might also get away with it if you wear those crappy $5.00 canvas and plastic sole kung fu shoes since they are almost like wearing nothing.
Shod Foot. Hilarious.
That is funny. Although perhaps not totally without warrant. After all, you can fuck a nigga up with some steel toed boots.
Ludo, you have any thoughts on American Kenpo?
Interesting article on the relationship between ITF TKD and North Korea. . .
http://article.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.asp?total_id=3291178
Ludo, you have any thoughts on American Kenpo?
I'm actually not familiar with it.
I'm actually not familiar with it.
It's a very self-focused focused style and kind of fascinating to me in a lot of ways. Since you are all about the SD I think you would find it at least somewhat interesting.
Here's the wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Kenpo
Here are a few vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFQikvO2JLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmdcONvG-Q0
Love this girl. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UOVOHv6tr0
Announcing Michael Page -- Sport Karateka turned MMA Fighter . . . Britain's Anderson Silva?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csphiyfPjso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4awSmJfuhbU
I'd like to see him fight someone who wasn't making they're MMA debut before we start toting him as the UK's Anderson Silva. Honestly he looks very rough around the edges, even with all that distance he still almost got taken down after trying to sprawl the length of the cage.
Well to be fair it was his debut as well.
What I don't like is that he seems totally disrespectful. I hate it when fighters do that shit. Not only is he a showboater, but after the fight his opponent came up to him and he basically just ignored it. What a douche.
Well to be fair it was his debut as well.
What I don't like is that he seems totally disrespectful. I hate it when fighters do that shit. Not only is he a showboater, but after the fight his opponent came up to him and he basically just ignored it. What a douche.
I get that it was his debut as well, but people saying he might be the next Anderson Silva when he just fought one time against another total rookie is a huge leap. And yeah, that showboating bullshit is going to get him knocked out against anyone who knows what the fuck they're doing most likely. Let him get tagged good and see how fast those hands come up and he gets serious.
I think the Silva comparisons are due to a similarity in styles, not necessarily ability. Silva also likes to showboat, act a fool, and use weird, flashy techniques.
I think the Silva comparisons are due to a similarity in styles, not necessarily ability. Silva also likes to showboat, act a fool, and use weird, flashy techniques.
I agree there, but Silva is doing it to top guys in his division and even in the division above it.
Indeed.
Well I have mixed emotions about the guy. Since he comes from a TMA background that makes me want to support him . . . on the other hand I usually like to see showboaters get knocked the fuck out.
Indeed.
Well I have mixed emotions about the guy. Since he comes from a TMA background that makes me want to support him . . . on the other hand I usually like to see showboaters get knocked the fuck out.
I don't like him.
What you need to like is talking to me about muthafuckin' Kenpo!
What you need to like is talking to me about muthafuckin' Kenpo!
I watched those videos. It looks like it has good intentions but I really don't see as much practical use as they would like for us to think. Some of those maneuvers look just fine but some of those "finishing moves" look highly unlikely to work unless your assailant is just remaining still. Those "half step" stomps and glancing stomps just leave you off balance if the attacker does anything.
I will say that the basis of the combinations do have merit. But the "finish" portions of those strung together techniques just wouldn't translate. It really looks like the guy tried to take a veritable hodge podge of techniques and smush them together like a casserole that doesn't jive. I'm not impressed.
Yes, well the most common question surrounding kenpo has to do with whether or not the techniques could be pulled off against a non-compliant opponent.
Personally, I think the interesting thing is that Ed Parker--who had learned Kenpo earlier in his life in Hawaii--modified the style significantly based upon his own real-world fighting experience. Like Bruce Lee, he was known to get into tussles on the street and he developed his "American Kenpo Karate" to be effective based upon his real-world encounters.
In the beginning it looked a lot more linear and karate-like, but as time went on he added in a lot more kung fu-based circular movements and he built the techs to flow according to the natural movement of the human body.
Recently, Jeff Speakman--the guy who starred in The Perfect Weapon--further modified the Kenpo that he learned from Parker to account for boxing-style punches and he also added in some SD oriented submission grappling.
Personally, Kenpo is fascinating to me. I'm not sure how realistic it is, but I'd like to learn it one day if only because there is such an interesting history behind it and the theory behind the system is compelling.
Yes, well the most common question surrounding kenpo has to do with whether or not the techniques could be pulled off against a compliant opponent.
Personally, I think the interesting thing is that Ed Parker--who had learned Kenpo earlier in his life in Hawaii--modified the style significantly based upon his own real-world fighting experience. Like Bruce Lee, he was known to get into tussles on the street and he developed his "American Kenpo Karate" to be effective based upon his real-world encounters.
In the beginning it looked a lot more linear and karate-like, but as time went on he added in a lot more kung fu-based circular movements and he built the techs to flow according to the natural movement of the human body.
Recently, Jeff Speakman--the guy who starred in The Perfect Weapon--further modified the Kenpo that he learned from Parker to account for boxing-style punches and he also added in some SD oriented submission grappling.
Personally, Kenpo is fascinating to me. I'm not sure how realistic it is, but I'd like to learn it one day if only because there is such an interesting history behind it and the theory behind the system is compelling.
Yeah, when he started using back foot crossing is when he lost Me in that second video. Like I said I like how it all starts off, the catching of the hand and then going to the groin or ribs but the moment he starts letting go of the arm or not controlling the body with the head/neck is when I see holes in things. Personally I thought almost every single technique he did to a "grounded opponent" was pure horse shit. Half steps and sliding heel stomps with your back turned to the guy is completely ridiculous.
When he strayed from straight arm strikes is when he really started to get into the "high level" type stuff and the more he got into that territory the less viable it became for real world use. As far as fusion styles go it started off in the right direction, but seemed to deteriorate in the spirit of trying to be something more than it needed to be. Alot of wasted motion there.
I also didn't like his analogy between western boxing and "Oriental boxing". Especially since many traditional martial arts stances don't allow for as much power to be harnessed in the strike itself. Boxing may be a more simplistic style that focuses on two "poisons" or points of contact, but it also produces a sort of specific expertise. Even in various martial arts you get guys who excel in one area. Like how some jiu jitsu guys are choke guys, while others are top control specialists. Or how some guys are great with kicks while others are brilliant counter fighters. I felt his view on western boxing in that regard was particularly disrespectful. He came off as smug to Me in that portion of the interview.
Did you ever see The Perfect Weapon?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRgBq8br3m4
Did you ever see The Perfect Weapon?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRgBq8br3m4
I don't remember that one, no. But Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa is pretty much a staple from any martial arts film back then.
I felt his view on western boxing in that regard was particularly disrespectful. He came off as smug to Me in that portion of the interview.
Maybe so. My guess is that he might have been kind of a cocky guy in general.
I don't remember that one, no. But Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa is pretty much a staple from any martial arts film back then.
Oh, well you should check it out. It's the only movie that I know of where the star is a Kenpo guy. So if you want to see more kenpo, or at least movie kenpo, watch that shit.
Like I said, Speakman continues to teach and give seminars even today 21 years later, and has developed his own "Kenpo 5.0" system.
Maybe so. My guess is that he might have been kind of a cocky guy in general.
He definitely comes off that way.
He was a big name in American martial arts back in the day. You remember that scene in Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story where Bruce is at the karate tournament getting heckled for his theories and then has to kick that dude's ass in 60 seconds? That tournament was Ed Parker's Long Beach International.
He was a big name in American martial arts back in the day. You remember that scene in Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story where Bruce is at the karate tournament getting heckled for his theories and then has to kick that dude's ass in 60 seconds? That tournament was Ed Parker's Long Beach International.
Yeah, and it turned out to be the same guy who broke his back with the liu kang dragon kick. I didn't know that, though, that's pretty interesting all things considered. I wouldn't have thought he'd give so much thought to things given his heritage in hawaii. Usually hawaiians don't give a fuck about anything not on the islands.
That's the impression I get about Hawaiians from watching Dog: The Bounty Hunter. It's like it's own country or some shit.
Ed Parker was a fascinating figure. I'd like to make a documentary about him and his influence on the American martial arts scene. It was significant.
Any thoughts on Bartitsu, X?
I can't remember where or when I first heard of Bartitsu, but I remember hearing about it and reading the Wikipedia article. Pretty interesting stuff and one of the first (or THE first) fusions of European and Asian martial arts. Seems unfortunate that it had a period of popularity and then just kind of faded away.
Your thoughts?
I can't remember where or when I first heard of Bartitsu, but I remember hearing about it and reading the Wikipedia article. Pretty interesting stuff and one of the first (or THE first) fusions of European and Asian martial arts. Seems unfortunate that it had a period of popularity and then just kind of faded away.
Your thoughts?
It strikes Me as one of the first complete systems in the modern age of the western world(and by that I mean the time in which man was technologically advanced past the use of the sword and shield). Incorporating four point striking, some kind of grappling and the use of an every day object really is the quintessential aim for all self defense systems the world over. It allowed the average man to be potentially be a grade A badass and look like john everyman at the same time, also an aim for most self defense systems.
Instead of just being a catch wrestler, or just a boxer, or just a brawling thug this system allowed someone to be capable of at least defending themselves as any or all of the above should the situation require it.
But the fact that it just kind of came and went as fast as it did makes it somewhat fascinating.
I agree. It's quite interesting. I would really like to see it in action.
According to Wikipedia, there has been a revival of interest in the system over the last decade. However, from what I can tell, they are essentially trying to recreate the system by studying existing material produced by the founder, rather than the system actually having survived intact over the years. This makes me wonder how accurate their reproduction is.
The use of the walking stick is particularly interesting. Use of weapons is something that many otherwise complete systems still lack even today.
Ludo, let's try to find a download for this. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYqAdaosuIw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDNaC-2HW-A
I agree. It's quite interesting. I would really like to see it in action.
According to Wikipedia, there has been a revival of interest in the system over the last decade. However, from what I can tell, they are essentially trying to recreate the system by studying existing material produced by the founder, rather than the system actually having survived intact over the years. This makes me wonder how accurate their reproduction is.
The use of the walking stick is particularly interesting. Use of weapons is something that many otherwise complete systems still lack even today.
Yeah, the problem with weapons on the whole is that people, sane and moral people anyway, have a fear of inflicting permanent harm on one another. Plus it's odd anymore to see anyone who isn't blind or geriatric to have a cane.
Ludo, let's try to find a download for this. . .
Negative. I can't even find hints or traces of that shit anywhere. I don't think anyone has it.
Yeah, the problem with weapons on the whole is that people, sane and moral people anyway, have a fear of inflicting permanent harm on one another.
Yeah, that's true. I have that fear even without weapons. People have died or ended up permanently injured even from just taking a punch, or from a secondary impact like getting punched, falling and then hitting their head on something.
Plus it's odd anymore to see anyone who isn't blind or geriatric to have a cane.
That's true, but this kind of makes me want to start carrying one. Especially if it's a cane sword.
Negative. I can't even find hints or traces of that shit anywhere. I don't think anyone has it.
I couldn't find it either.
I'll probably actually buy it at some point. . .
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/bartitsu.aspx
Yeah it's on sale for $20, I might just get it too for My own piece of mind.
Should be an interesting watch and truth be told I do try to buy stuff like this as much as I can. As an aspiring filmmaker, I try to actually pay for shit produced by small, indie filmmakers because I know they actually really need the money.
Even for big films, if I really like it, I try to buy it on Blu-Ray. Artists deserve to get paid for what they do.
Should be an interesting watch and truth be told I do try to buy stuff like this as much as I can. As an aspiring filmmaker, I try to actually pay for shit produced by small, indie filmmakers because I know they actually really need the money.
Even for big films, if I really like it, I try to buy it on Blu-Ray. Artists deserve to get paid for what they do.
I don't think it's that people don't feel they should be paid, it's that people feel they shouldn't have to pay the prices on the market(which are grossly overdone).
I don't think it's that people don't feel they should be paid, it's that people feel they shouldn't have to pay the prices on the market(which are grossly overdone).
I agree that in many cases that is true. Though as long as movie tickets are under $10 and I can get Blu-Rays for less than $20 then I'm not going to complain.
To be honest, I get annoyed at people's attitude that it's okay to just download shit and not pay anyone anything. Does that mean that one day I'm going to put my heart and soul into making a small documentary that I dropped $10,000 into and that I worked my ass off to make, and people are going to think they're just entitled to it for free? Fuck that! I should be able to make back my $10K and then some, so I can pay my bills and make something else.
To be honest, I get annoyed at people's attitude that it's okay to just download shit and not pay anyone anything. Does that mean that one day I'm going to put my heart and soul into making a small documentary that I dropped $10,000 into and that I worked my ass off to make, and people are going to think they're just entitled to it for free? Fuck that! I should be able to make back my $10K and then some, so I can pay my bills and make something else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiLzf72Jtrw
Awesome fucking movie . . . I can't not love it . . .
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BODQxODgyNjE1OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNjQyNDc0MQ@@._ V1._SY317_CR3,0,214,317_.jpg
So awesome the picture cannot be seen.
So awesome the picture cannot be seen.
Showing up just fine for me.
But you can find it here:
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BODQxODgyNjE1OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNjQyNDc0MQ@@._ V1._SY317_CR3,0,214,317_.jpg
http://rlv.zcache.com/funny_karate_t_shirt-p235412142167391163tr96_400.jpg
http://www.mrtees.com/images/Extrema-Hunting-Deer-Karate-Kick.gif
http://karatetraining.org/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/karate_breaking.gif
http://karatetraining.org/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/karate_breaking.gif
Hilarious.
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