View Full Version : UFC 118 Penn-Edgar 2 Toney-Couture
Svino
08-08-2010, 01:35 PM
Thats another thing the UFC has too worry about Toney coming in all roided up since he doesnt care if he ever has another fight
LOL, did you see this?
http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option= ... 6:fighters (http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2709:did-the-ufc-photoshop-james-toney-to-make-him-look-thinner&catid=36:fighters)
Mr. IWS
08-08-2010, 01:44 PM
Thats another thing the UFC has too worry about Toney coming in all roided up since he doesnt care if he ever has another fight
LOL, did you see this?
http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option= ... 6:fighters (http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2709:did-the-ufc-photoshop-james-toney-to-make-him-look-thinner&catid=36:fighters)
That shouldnt even qualify as a photoshop. Thats like and MS paint job.
Thats another thing the UFC has too worry about Toney coming in all roided up since he doesnt care if he ever has another fight
LOL, did you see this?
http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option= ... 6:fighters (http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2709:did-the-ufc-photoshop-james-toney-to-make-him-look-thinner&catid=36:fighters)
That shouldnt even qualify as a photoshop. Thats like and MS paint job.
Yeah, that's horrible. Goddamn he's fucking fat and gross and disgusting. He should be fighting Herschel Walker in Japan, not Randy Couture on a UFC PPV.
And I didn't realize the odds for KenFlo were out. Just took him at -145. Apparently he opened as the underdog? Weird.
LOL, did you see this?
http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option= ... 6:fighters (http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2709:did-the-ufc-photoshop-james-toney-to-make-him-look-thinner&catid=36:fighters)
ah yeah
no way in hell would I have thought that first picture was legit .Toney hasnt looked like that since 1998
And I didn't realize the odds for KenFlo were out. Just took him at -145. Apparently he opened as the underdog? Weird.
You got rocks in your head today like SPX usually does?
Not only has the Kenflo line been out 3 months you're the one that posted it here
http://www.investwithsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=8125&start=60
And I didn't realize the odds for KenFlo were out. Just took him at -145. Apparently he opened as the underdog? Weird.
You got rocks in your head today like SPX usually does?
Not only has the Kenflo line been out 3 months you're the one that posted it here
http://www.investwithsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=8125&start=60
::lmao::
LOL awesome. I even said the same shit about Maynard being the favorite.
Maybe I just ignored since it came out in fucking May.
You got rocks in your head today like SPX usually does?
Not only has the Kenflo line been out 3 months you're the one that posted it here
http://www.investwithsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=8125&start=60
LOL
::lmao::
LOL awesome. I even said the same shit about Maynard being the favorite.
Maybe I just ignored since it came out in fucking May.
::lmao::
Mr. IWS
08-08-2010, 02:22 PM
SPX = zY?
Add that to the list of aliases on IWS.
poopoo333
08-08-2010, 03:18 PM
Scientist, (or anybody), do you know anything about Amilcar Alves?
edman5555
08-08-2010, 04:40 PM
What are everyones thoughts on Florian/ Maynard? I think Florians standup is on a whole other level compared to Maynard. I'm not sure about the wrestling though, I know Maynard is better but I don't know if he is willing to go to the ground with Florian. It seems like he would have no choice though, he has to mix it up or he will get picked apart standing.
When Maynard fought Nick Diaz ( a fight I thought he lost) he never really made an effort to wrestle with him. I think that is because he was afraid to be submitted, Nick has a crazy triangle. In the stand up department Nick was peppering him like crazy. Gray landed a few "big" shots but his stand up doesn't really seem that developed. IMO Kenny is at least in the top 3 in the lightweight division stand up wise. I read he has an all new stand up coach and he says he is getting much much better before the Guida fight. He owned Guida. Guida beat Diaz. I don't usually use MMA math but here it goes.
Guida beat Diaz. No arugment there. As per judges, mmajunkie, and sherdog.
Florian Owned Guida. Domination.
Maynard beat Diaz according to the judges. However I thought Diaz won and according to sherdog and MMAjunkie, Diaz won.
Maynard and Guida are somewhat similar fighters in that they win by mixing up striking with takedowns utilizing their wrestling. I know they are different but those aspects are somewhat big for them.
So if Guida could do to Diaz what Maynard couldn't and Florian owned Guida I lean towards Kenflo over Maynard. Also keep in mind that Florian and Diaz are guys who like to strike and use BJJ.
Nate diaz = brown belt . Kenflo = black belt. NOTE: Diaz might be more dangerous for Maynard due to big long trianglin' legs.
I'm not sure on this. I will be on Kenflo but for how much, I don't know.
Opinions?
poopoo333
08-08-2010, 04:47 PM
"o if Guida could do to Diaz what Maynard couldn't and Florian owned Guida I lean towards Kenflo over Maynard. Also keep in mind that Florian and Diaz are guys who like to strike and use BJJ."
This mindfucked my mind when I was reading this in my mind.
I think Florian will fight with a wide, low base to avoid the takedown while using his boxing and avoiding throwing any kicks and force Maynard to stand.
Mr. IWS
08-08-2010, 04:59 PM
This mindfucked my mind when I was reading this in my mind.
LMAO
Maynard could've taken Diaz down and Guida'd him but he went out there and got sucked into Diaz talking shit to him and just threw haymakers at him. What a horrible fight that was.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 05:55 PM
Maynard could've taken Diaz down and Guida'd him but he went out there and got sucked into Diaz talking shit to him and just threw haymakers at him. What a horrible fight that was.
Well I think he was afraid to take Diaz down.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 06:02 PM
I just went through Gray Maynards previous opponets and he fought two guys with higher level Jitz. Nate diaz and Jim miller. He only attempted one take down in the third round against Jim. Miller actually tried to pull guard on Maynard to get him down. Didn't work.
I just went through Gray Maynards previous opponets and he fought two guys with higher level Jitz. Nate diaz and Jim miller. He only attempted one take down in the third round against Jim. Miller actually tried to pull guard on Maynard to get him down. Didn't work.
You could be right about him not wanting to take these guys down. More likely I think it's a case of wrestler X getting a case of boxitis. Either way I'm not going to watch that terrible fight with Diaz again.
poopoo333
08-08-2010, 06:15 PM
I am starting to think Diaz is a really good bet over Davis.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 07:12 PM
Why is Diaz a really good bet over Davis?
edman5555
08-08-2010, 07:14 PM
I'm beginning to think Nik Lentz might be a really good bet.
poopoo333
08-08-2010, 07:23 PM
Why is Diaz a really good bet over Davis?
Davis is 37 now and slowing down imo. He hasn't been that impressive lately, and I remember thinking that he didn't look too great against Goulet. I think Diaz will be able to frustrate Davis with his annoying jabs and outpoint him. I don't see Davis being able to outpoint, KO, or submit Diaz.
. . . and I remember thinking that he didn't look too great against Goulet.
Dude, he fucked Goulet up.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 07:26 PM
. . . and I remember thinking that he didn't look too great against Goulet.
Dude, he fucked Goulet up.
Yeah Ko'd him but now that I think about it he wasn't doing well up until that point. He still KO'd him though. Saunders did destroy him though, that was pretty rough.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 07:33 PM
I'm pulling the trigger on Nik Lentz. He is an underdog on 5dimes and he has beaten better competition than Andre Winner it looks like. I wish I got him at +170. He beat Roli Delgado who I think stinks. Sorry Roli. He also beat Rafaello Oliveira who I think is pretty good but Nik beat him as well.
Point of interest: Winner beat Oliviera. I looked up play by play, that is something that I am going to do a lot from now on BTW. I think it is really worthwhile. But anyway, my point. Sherdog gave rounds 1 and 3 to Winner but R2 a draw. MMAJunkie gave rounds 2 and 3 to Winner but R1 to Oliviera.
It seems like a clear cut W for winner but somewhat close. I think that matters to because its Winners only good win as far as I can see.
Oh yeah. Winner is a brit and Nik Lentz is an American Wrestler. Yeah I'm pulling that card.
poopoo333
08-08-2010, 07:36 PM
^^Play by play is a very useful tool imo
edman5555
08-08-2010, 08:35 PM
I'm also thinking about betting on Amilcar Alves over Mike pierce. I'm sure Pierce will be a big favorite. Anyone know much about him? I just read an article. He has been training Judo in Brazil for 25 years and he competed in Muay Thai. Sounds good..he also trains BJJ with Nova uniao and I know they are good.
It looks like he can submit well, KO people and he has good judo which could help him keep it standing.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 09:01 PM
I might back down on Amilcar Alves. Pierce is pretty good, he gave Fitch a run for his money and has only lost to good wrestlers.
I might back down on Amilcar Alves. Pierce is pretty good, he gave Fitch a run for his money and has only lost to good wrestlers.
Pierce is solid. He's a good wrestler and hits hard. I don't know anything about this Amilcar guy, but he has to be good to beat Pierce.
edman5555
08-08-2010, 09:20 PM
Yeah he has good standup. He was a muai thai fighter and he is also a 25 year vet of judo. I looked up MP's wrestling history and he is a two time all american. He also wobbled Jon Fitch with a punch. I don't know who will win it. It could go either way. I bet Amilcar's line will get up very high though. Most people won't have any idea who he is and will probably bet against him. If he gets up to +300 or something like that he might be worth betting on.
MMA_scientist
08-09-2010, 12:37 PM
I like Diaz to win also.
Miranda, Ruediger, Alves and Salter could all be good underdogs.
Miranda has superior wrestling to Maia, he might be able to force a standup fight. He is a very good grappler in his won right, so it is not going to be insta-submission for Maia. I think it comes down to striking and whether Maia can get top position. Since Maia will probably be at least -300, Miranda is probably the play (for you guys, for me ABOM).
Ruediger doesn't suck. His stint on tough made him look like an ass clown, but he is actually a very solid fighter. I still favor creepy Joe, but I wouldn't take him @ -200 or more.
Salter is basically mini Dan Miller. Miller should be a little ahead in the wrestling, but not so much that it is a lock. Miller's hands apparently suck worse than everyone thought.
Alves is dynamic. He is a muy thai and judo guy. He trains with a great camp. Most likely Pierce will top control him for 3 rounds... but Alves has a lot more outs. I doubt Pierce finishes him. I will probably make this @ +200.
edman5555
08-09-2010, 03:45 PM
I like Diaz to win also.
Miranda, Ruediger, Alves and Salter could all be good underdogs.
Miranda has superior wrestling to Maia, he might be able to force a standup fight. He is a very good grappler in his won right, so it is not going to be insta-submission for Maia. I think it comes down to striking and whether Maia can get top position. Since Maia will probably be at least -300, Miranda is probably the play (for you guys, for me ABOM).
Ruediger doesn't suck. His stint on tough made him look like an ass clown, but he is actually a very solid fighter. I still favor creepy Joe, but I wouldn't take him @ -200 or more.
Salter is basically mini Dan Miller. Miller should be a little ahead in the wrestling, but not so much that it is a lock. Miller's hands apparently suck worse than everyone thought.
Alves is dynamic. He is a muy thai and judo guy. He trains with a great camp. Most likely Pierce will top control him for 3 rounds... but Alves has a lot more outs. I doubt Pierce finishes him. I will probably make this @ +200.
Yeah Alves finishes fights which is a plus. He isn't going to D win a wrestler unless he repeatidly stuns him in the standup unless he can take him down which is unlikely.
I was thinking the same thing about Miranda. He might be able to get a decision win on Maia. I bet he will be in the +250 - +300 range.
Yea, I think Miranda will be the right side of the bet(assuming the line is what we think it will be). but Miranda seems to be kinda spastic with his offense, like balls to the wall, and I fear that may get him in trouble with Maia.
edman5555
08-09-2010, 07:23 PM
Yea, I think Miranda will be the right side of the bet(assuming the line is what we think it will be). but Miranda seems to be kinda spastic with his offense, like balls to the wall, and I fear that may get him in trouble with Maia.
That's not good.
poopoo333
08-10-2010, 01:24 AM
I have to do some more video watching and stuff, but I will probably be on Ospizak, Diaz, Dan Miller @-220 or better, Maia @-220 or better, and Winner.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 09:04 AM
Yea, I think Miranda will be the right side of the bet(assuming the line is what we think it will be). but Miranda seems to be kinda spastic with his offense, like balls to the wall, and I fear that may get him in trouble with Maia.
Maia is going to be superior on the mat. If Miranda takes him down, he is not going to be able to hold him there for 15 minutes without getting subbed or swept, IMO. If Maia is on top, Miranda is probably screwed unless he can escape to his feet of stall out in guard until the bell. As good as Miranda is, he is not as good as Maia on the mat. But Miranda is also a pretty good wrestler, and I think he can dictate where the fight goes.
How is Miranda's striking?
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 09:07 AM
Yeah Alves finishes fights which is a plus. He isn't going to D win a wrestler unless he repeatidly stuns him in the standup unless he can take him down which is unlikely.
I was thinking the same thing about Miranda. He might be able to get a decision win on Maia. I bet he will be in the +250 - +300 range.
Miranda is not going to stop Maia. You might be able to get really good odds on a prop Miranda by decision.
Miranda just has a go for broke style, and I think it might get him in trouble both standing(by getting taken down) and on the ground(where he is already at a disadvantage). That all being said, I think the line will dictate where the bet is placed. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that I have to believe my guy is going to win the fight in order to place the bet. I did not believe Werdum was going to beat Fedor, I just believed he had value...so that is where the money went.
I think Maia wins this fight, but if Miranda is +300 or more, he gets my bet(more than likely)
Really starting to convince myself that Kenny takes the fight(against Gray). Maybe it is just me trying to find a fight to throw down cash on.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 09:46 AM
Miranda just has a go for broke style, and I think it might get him in trouble both standing(by getting taken down) and on the ground(where he is already at a disadvantage). That all being said, I think the line will dictate where the bet is placed. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that I have to believe my guy is going to win the fight in order to place the bet. I did not believe Werdum was going to beat Fedor, I just believed he had value...so that is where the money went.
I think Maia wins this fight, but if Miranda is +300 or more, he gets my bet(more than likely)
Well if there is enough value I will make the bet even if I feel my guy is less than 50%. I also bet Werdum because I thought he had A LOT of value, but still felt he was less than 50%. But generally, I still to smaller favorites that I think are actually going to win.
IIRC correctly, Maia was -300 or so against Miller. I can't imagine Miranda is going to get that much respect from the public. I think -400/+300 is right about where it will land. At that line, Miranda is the play, I agree. If he has a charging striking style, he is probably going to get taken down and be in the one place he does not want to be (underneath Maia).
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 09:49 AM
Really starting to convince myself that Kenny takes the fight(against Gray). Maybe it is just me trying to find a fight to throw down cash on.
I am actually leaning toward Maynard now. I started off thinking Florian would find a way to win it with his striking... I now think Maynard uses his wrestling again and does am Edgar/Sherk on K-Flo.
I think the line will move up on Maynard so I am waiting it out.
Really starting to convince myself that Kenny takes the fight(against Gray). Maybe it is just me trying to find a fight to throw down cash on.
I am actually leaning toward Maynard now. I started off thinking Florian would find a way to win it with his striking... I now think Maynard uses his wrestling again and does am Edgar/Sherk on K-Flo.
I think the line will move up on Maynard so I am waiting it out.
The problems I have with that thinking is that first, this is not the Kenny that fought the roided up Sherk. And second, Maynard has had subpar results with his wrestling as of late. he had trouble taking Huerta down, and even if he does get Kenny down, i believe Kenny may get him in bad spots there also.
I am 100% sure that this is not the same kenny that layed under Sherk, I can actually see a fight where half of it is spent standing, and the other half is spent on the ground, and kenny outworks him in both areas. the judges could have an effect on this contest also, as I could see a fight where Maynard has top position, but Kenny does more damage from the bottom.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 10:16 AM
The problems I have with that thinking is that first, this is not the Kenny that fought the roided up Sherk. And second, Maynard has had subpar results with his wrestling as of late. he had trouble taking Huerta down, and even if he does get Kenny down, i believe Kenny may get him in bad spots there also.
I am 100% sure that this is not the same kenny that layed under Sherk, I can actually see a fight where half of it is spent standing, and the other half is spent on the ground, and kenny outworks him in both areas. the judges could have an effect on this contest also, as I could see a fight where Maynard has top position, but Kenny does more damage from the bottom.
I agree that Kenny has improved his takedown defense. But he still won't be able to stop Maynard from taking him down, IMO. The only issue is whether he will be able to keep him down.
Although Maynard is at a clear striking disadvantage, he has never really been hurt on his feet that I can recall (admittedly, I hate watching him fight, so I havne't paid a lot of attention). Maynard's difficulty controlling Huerta I think had a lot to do with Huerta's wrestling and pace. He was able to control Edgar pretty well. And he has had the takedown on pretty much everyone he wanted it on. I don't think Kenny will threaten from his back. Kenny has solid grappling, but he doesn't do much from his guard. He gets his submissions from dominant positions. If Kenny can take Maynard down or get his back, its all over, I agree.
Kenny throws some elbows and may beat him up from guard, but I doubt he will sweep or sub him. So in that regard, yeah, the judging is huge. But I have no faith that the judges are suddently going to realize that the guy on bottom is not necessarily losing just because he happens to be facing up instead of down. His best bet is to use his butterfly hooks to create space and get up like he did when Guida took him down.
I don't really like either guy at the current line... But I see Maynard as more of a threat than Guida to control him.
But you could argue that Kennys wrestling and pace are just as good, if not better than Rogers. His pace for sure, as the pace in the Gray-Roger fight was actually pretty slow. Rogers was getting raped by Guida in the wrestling department, yet Maynard had a tough time with him.
I really do think the CO. show really screwed with alot of fighters that night...many of them looked very lethargic, and I think that might have really played into the Maynard-Edgar match.
I just think you might be surprised at how well Kenny is able to keep the distance in this fight, and use his footwork to evade SOME of the takedowns.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 10:33 AM
^^ well it wouldn't surprise me a lot. I think Florian is the second best LW in the world. But I think If Maynard has the right gameplan, he can cause trouble.
I will probably not bet at all... you have talked me out of Maynard. But I still won't bet Florian.
Well if there is enough value I will make the bet even if I feel my guy is less than 50%.
I've never seen you make this statement.
^^ well it wouldn't surprise me a lot. I think Florian is the second best LW in the world. But I think If Maynard has the right gameplan, he can cause trouble.
I will probably not bet at all... you have talked me out of Maynard. But I still won't bet Florian.
LOL! You might have talked me out of Florian. i do agree that the right gameplan executed correctly could be trouble.
I think Kenny takes it. Maynard make get some takedowns, but I think Kenny will avoid most of them. And if he does get taken down he'll find a way back to his feet. I was genuinely impressed with the way that Guida was 100% INEFFECTIVE in taking Kenny down. He completely failed in that department.
On the feet it will be all Kenny.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 10:43 AM
Well if there is enough value I will make the bet even if I feel my guy is less than 50%.
I've never seen you make this statement.
I bet on Werdum and I stated in that thread that I thought Werdum was about 30-35%. But since I got him @ +455, the line was giving him less than a 20% chance. But you are right, usually, I have to think my guy is actually going to win.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 10:46 AM
I think Kenny takes it. Maynard make get some takedowns, but I think Kenny will avoid most of them. And if he does get taken down he'll find a way back to his feet. I was genuinely impressed with the way that Guida was 100% INEFFECTIVE in taking Kenny down. He completely failed in that department.
On the feet it will be all Kenny.
Guida did get one takedown. I forgot that Kenny was throwing Guida around though... He had a couple of big takedowns. Kenny is the new GSP.
Guida did get one takedown. I forgot that Kenny was throwing Guida around though... He had a couple of big takedowns. Kenny is the new GSP.
I don't remember Guida's takedown, but I'll take your word for it.
For me, this isn't a question of whether it was a bad idea to bet on Kenny, but whether it would be a bad idea to put more money on him.
Havis Jr
08-10-2010, 12:00 PM
Lentz looks like a good play.
What do you guys think of Soto v Osipczak
Osipczak has fought 2 wrestlers in his last fights. Riddle then Story. Riddle was winning the fight on points until the 2 referee standups. That fight was in the UK, so the crowd was booing as soon as it hit the mat... Story won a split dec.
But both fights Osipczak was taken down pretty easily, I think soto can do the same, his wiki says he was wrestling since 7th grade and has college wrestling experience.
This seems like another brit striker v wrestler matchup.
Would love to actually see his fight with Story, because Story is pretty much a stud. And it was a split.
Havis Jr
08-10-2010, 02:07 PM
Would love to actually see his fight with Story, because Story is pretty much a stud. And it was a split.
Rnd 1: story gets the takedown within 20 seconds, story with some decent gnp for 5 min, even passes guard a few times. Neither guy takes any big damage.
Rnd 2: Both are tired. Story tries to get takedown, Osipczak defends well and gets a few trips, but story is back on his feet pretty quickly. Osipczak takes the round.
rnd 3: both are gassed. Lots of clinch work on the cage. Osipczak gets another trip, but Story gets the arm in guillotine for a min then he lets it go to get back to his feet. Story gets a final takedown, and I think that's what won him the fight.
I don't think I've seen enough of Soto to really bet too big. Osipczak TDD still seems kinda weak, but he doesn't take much damage on the ground....
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 02:23 PM
Just been looking at this fight. I am actually thinking about Osipzsac.
Riddle was ruling Soto until the upkick. His wrestling is not anywhere near Story's. He was basically a kind of decent high school wrestler in NJ. He wasn't even a State champ or anything. Here is a article that mentions he was a distrct champ and regional runner up (basically a decent high school wrestler, not even a star): http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/ ... t-Saturday (http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20100323/SPORTS28/100323047/Ocean-s-Greg-Soto-prepares-for-UFC-debut-Saturday)
I don't see where he wrestled in college and he was getting taken down a lot by Riddle.
Soto is a brown belt under Pelligrino, who also has a wrestling base. I expect him to have a solid grappling advantage over Nick, if he can get it there.
Riddle did take Nick down several times. He also got swept a few times and mounted a few times, something Soto was not able to do to Riddle. I doubt Nick will sweep Soto just based on his bjj training.
I can't even find a play by play for the Story fight. One judge gave it to Nick... all 3 judges gave Nick at least one round. I really wish I could get SOMETHING on the Story fight. Anything that says he was not taken down at will. I found a poorly translated article that says Nick was pissed after the Story fight and went to work on his wrestling.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 02:24 PM
Havis ! where did you find that... I couldnt find a thing.
http://www.mmabloodbath.com/2010/04/nic ... o-ufc.html (http://www.mmabloodbath.com/2010/04/nick-osipczak-vs-rick-story-video-ufc.html)
2nd one works.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 03:12 PM
It didn't work for me. What does Nick's TD defense look like?
Havis Jr
08-10-2010, 03:39 PM
Havis ! where did you find that... I couldnt find a thing.
I saw he went to some college in NJ. I assumed he wrestled. Wrestling in NJ and pennsylvania is huge even at the highschool level. I assumed he wrestled at college, but then I saw this http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Greg_Soto
Specific accomplishments in amateur competition? Undefeated in amateur MMA, district champion and region runner up in wrestling in high school, 2 time state place winner in wrestling in NJ.
When and why did you start training for fighting? I started training with Kurt when I was a teenager. Started fighting at 18 because I wasn't interested in wrestling in college but still loved to compete.
Your right he didn't wrestle in college. I may just stay away.
Havis Jr
08-10-2010, 03:51 PM
Just been looking at this fight. I am actually thinking about Osipzsac.
Riddle was ruling Soto until the upkick. His wrestling is not anywhere near Story's. He was basically a kind of decent high school wrestler in NJ. He wasn't even a State champ or anything. Here is a article that mentions he was a distrct champ and regional runner up (basically a decent high school wrestler, not even a star): http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/ ... t-Saturday (http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20100323/SPORTS28/100323047/Ocean-s-Greg-Soto-prepares-for-UFC-debut-Saturday)
I don't see where he wrestled in college and he was getting taken down a lot by Riddle.
Soto is a brown belt under Pelligrino, who also has a wrestling base. I expect him to have a solid grappling advantage over Nick, if he can get it there.
Riddle did take Nick down several times. He also got swept a few times and mounted a few times, something Soto was not able to do to Riddle. I doubt Nick will sweep Soto just based on his bjj training.
I can't even find a play by play for the Story fight. One judge gave it to Nick... all 3 judges gave Nick at least one round. I really wish I could get SOMETHING on the Story fight. Anything that says he was not taken down at will. I found a poorly translated article that says Nick was pissed after the Story fight and went to work on his wrestling.
Story has the same build as Soto, short and stocky. I think that helps in takedowns. Soto didn't wrestle in college but story didn't wrestle until he got to college. They are both better wretlers then Nick. I think Soto has a pretty big advantage on the ground with his highschool wrestling in Nj and his bjj. I think it all depend on how much better NIck's TDD has gotten and if he can keep it standing.
edman5555
08-10-2010, 09:36 PM
[quote="MMA_scientist":2349w4q4]Just been looking at this fight. I am actually thinking about Osipzsac.
Riddle was ruling Soto until the upkick. His wrestling is not anywhere near Story's. He was basically a kind of decent high school wrestler in NJ. He wasn't even a State champ or anything. Here is a article that mentions he was a distrct champ and regional runner up (basically a decent high school wrestler, not even a star): http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/ ... t-Saturday (http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20100323/SPORTS28/100323047/Ocean-s-Greg-Soto-prepares-for-UFC-debut-Saturday)
I don't see where he wrestled in college and he was getting taken down a lot by Riddle.
Soto is a brown belt under Pelligrino, who also has a wrestling base. I expect him to have a solid grappling advantage over Nick, if he can get it there.
Riddle did take Nick down several times. He also got swept a few times and mounted a few times, something Soto was not able to do to Riddle. I doubt Nick will sweep Soto just based on his bjj training.
I can't even find a play by play for the Story fight. One judge gave it to Nick... all 3 judges gave Nick at least one round. I really wish I could get SOMETHING on the Story fight. Anything that says he was not taken down at will. I found a poorly translated article that says Nick was pissed after the Story fight and went to work on his wrestling.
Story has the same build as Soto, short and stocky. I think that helps in takedowns. Soto didn't wrestle in college but story didn't wrestle until he got to college. They are both better wretlers then Nick. I think Soto has a pretty big advantage on the ground with his highschool wrestling in Nj and his bjj. I think it all depend on how much better NIck's TDD has gotten and if he can keep it standing.[/quote:2349w4q4]
I just read some play by plays.
Riddle obviously outwrestled Soto the entire fight. It also looks like he outstruck him on the feet.
Riddle wrestled OZ down in R1, was reversed and mounted by OZ. Riddle takes him down in R3 but gets reversed again. I should probably watch this fight.
I'm leaning towards Oz. According to MMAjunkie and sherdog he beat Riddle every round up until the TKO. Soto does have the Brown belt in bjj though but he might have a much harder time getting it to the ground. I think there might be a big gap in the striking game as well, benefitting Oz.
MMA_scientist
08-10-2010, 09:55 PM
^^ This is how I see it as well. Soto should be a little more disciplined and play a little tighter than Riddle, but won't have the brute physicality that Riddle brings. He should have more trouble with the takedowns, though I do think there is a good chance he gets a few until he gets tired. OZ should win the standup. But Soto looks like a little tank, so he is probably pretty explosive too.
I am close to pulling the trigger on OZ.
edman5555
08-10-2010, 10:43 PM
Oz opened an underdog, just like Nik Lentz. Nik still is but not +170
edman5555
08-11-2010, 09:51 PM
What is so special about Andre Winner that he is a favorite to Nik Lentz?
What is so special about Andre Winner that he is a favorite to Nik Lentz?
His last name is WINNER.
edman5555
08-11-2010, 10:31 PM
I put about 3u on lentz so far. I really wish I got him at +170. I got him at +115 and +110. Not bad.
I have a question for Scientist. Nik lentz was a wrestling state champion in high school in Minnesota. Where does Minnesota compare to the other states?
MMA_scientist
08-12-2010, 09:48 AM
Minnesota is a solid wrestling state. Aside from that, his wrestling has looked pretty good to me in MMA. He took down Emerson several times, Emerson has really underrated takedown defense. He also put Tavares down a few times (even though he would have lost without the point deduction).
Winner did stuff Oliveira several times, but I think Lentz can drag it down and be competitve standing. Lentz was going blow for blow with Emerson.
Lentz is solid, and Winner is nothing special IMO. I am probably going to join on that play.
MMA_scientist
08-12-2010, 10:01 AM
Update: Lentz actually was a scholrship wrestler for the Univerity of Minnesota. I don't think he was ever a varsity wrestler, but it looks like he wrestled 2 years there. UM is obviously a powerhouse wrestling school, one of the best programs.
from niklentz.com:
"While wrestling for the University of Minnesota, Nik Lentz realized his genuine talent and love for the sport and decided to take his wrestling fad to a new level. In 2005, Lentz began to train for MMA."
it also says something similar on several other sites
MMA_scientist
08-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Lentz and Winner have a common opponent in Oliveira. Winner did better against him, stuffing his shots and just jabbing him on the feet. Lentz went for broke, got taken down several times and had several takedowns and submission attempts of his own. They were about even on the feet. Cameron Dollar took Winner down in their TUF fight.
This fight definitely comes down to Winner's takedown defense, and Lentz is better on the ground for sure. I don't think Lentz is going to be getting many takedowns, but I think he has the goods for a few.
Lentz and Winner have a common opponent in Oliveira. Winner did better against him, stuffing his shots and just jabbing him on the feet. Lentz went for broke, got taken down several times and had several takedowns and submission attempts of his own. They were about even on the feet. Cameron Dollar took Winner down in their TUF fight.
This fight definitely comes down to Winner's takedown defense, and Lentz is better on the ground for sure. I don't think Lentz is going to be getting many takedowns, but I think he has the goods for a few.
Yea, I would be real careful about going to heavy on Lentz(especially at the current price). I believe Winners TDD is quite a bit better than it was on TUF. In fact, I do not believe he is even the same fighter period. I think his current camp is a very good one. The fighters seem to be improving at a quick pace there.
Havis Jr
08-12-2010, 03:04 PM
Team Rough House fighter are pretty notorious for having terrible tdd. At least in the past, I don't know how it is now, but I can't imagine its that much better.
3u Lentz +110
edman5555
08-12-2010, 04:07 PM
Winner didn't outclass Oliviera, he beat him but not by a lot. Winner rocked O a few times but O wobbled Winner at the end of the fight.
I noticed Andre winner has three wins ending via strikes. His first one was a submission to strikes, then he tko'd a guy with a 47/33 record. Lastly he TKO's Roli Delgado. I don't think Roli is really that great personally.
I don't think he is likely to KO/TKO Lentz on the feet. I'm not saying it's impossible, anything is possible but I think it's unlikely. That said, Lentz should be able to drag Winner down once a round..I think that's pretty likely. Andre is a guy with no real wrestling base, thats how that usually goes.
Striking: Winner by ???.. a decent amount? a little?
Wrestling: All Nik Lentz
BJJ: Lentz has the distinct advantage here. Only going by record but that still says something.
Lentz is a lot more well rounded. The gap on the feet isn't huge as far as I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong. I would like to know.
MMA_scientist
08-12-2010, 04:38 PM
^^ That's pretty much how I see it. I give Winner an edge on his feet, but not enough to end the fight.
Penn just hit -310 on Bookmaker. . .
edman5555
08-12-2010, 08:27 PM
Don't bet Penn. Frankie has already beaten him..and it wasn't by some fluke ko or a come from behind submission like Silva. He outstruck him and out wrestled him(small amount of Wrestling) for the win. I mean Penn can easily win but this is definetly a toss up.
Don't bet Penn. Frankie has already beaten him..and it wasn't by some fluke ko or a come from behind submission like Silva. He outstruck him and out wrestled him(small amount of Wrestling) for the win. I mean Penn can easily win but this is definetly a toss up.
It was very close. The decision easily could've gone to Penn.
And Penn is Penn.
edman5555
08-12-2010, 08:35 PM
Penn has been beaten before and it can happen again. If the line were even I would say go for it but he's at -300 or so. Thats not a great bet. I give him the edge over Frankie but I would not be suprised at all to see Frankie dance around him again for 5 rounds jabbing like crazy and getting the W.
Fight probably ends violently in the first round, and that definitely favors Penn. For -310 though, not me.
MMA_scientist
08-12-2010, 09:18 PM
I don't think it is a coin toss. But I would pay more than like -170 for Penn. Even if Penn should have won the decision, you have to think the value is with Frankie. Penn has to put him away quick and dirty, otherwise, I think Edgar can outwork him again. I am actually going to drop a little something on Edgar, even though I feel he is less than 50%.
edman5555
08-12-2010, 10:06 PM
At +260 he isnt bad. He is probably a decent amount higher for Win via Decision. It's good having 5 dimes for bets like this. Especially when Jon Fitch fights.
Penn has been beaten before and it can happen again. If the line were even I would say go for it but he's at -300 or so. Thats not a great bet. I give him the edge over Frankie but I would not be suprised at all to see Frankie dance around him again for 5 rounds jabbing like crazy and getting the W.
Yeah Penn was beaten before at 155. Except that was in 2002 to one of the best Lightweights of all time, and certainly the best in the world at that time. Lets put this in perspective. After he lost to GSP BJ Penn went on to tear both Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez new assholes.
After he lost to GSP BJ Penn went on to tear both Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez new assholes.
Especially Sanchez.
Goddamn. . .
edman5555
08-12-2010, 10:30 PM
After he lost to GSP BJ Penn went on to tear both Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez new assholes.
Especially Sanchez.
Goddamn. . .
Yeah but then he lost to Frankie Edgar. Now he is fighting Frankie Edgar.
edman5555
08-12-2010, 10:32 PM
edgar via 5 round D is +458 on 5dimes.
After he lost to GSP BJ Penn went on to tear both Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez new assholes.
Especially Sanchez.
Goddamn. . .
Yeah but then he lost to Frankie Edgar. Now he is fighting Frankie Edgar.
That's what I was gonna say.
Fedor lost to Werdum but surely no one here would honestly expect Fedor to be an underdog to Werdum if they fought again.
edman5555
08-12-2010, 10:44 PM
no but I wouldnt be on fedor on fav odds.
no but I wouldnt be on fedor on fav odds.
So you wouldn't take Fedor against Werdum at -120?
Fedor lost to Werdum but surely no one here would honestly expect Fedor to be an underdog to Werdum if they fought again.
BJ loses fights all the time.
no but I wouldnt be on fedor on fav odds.
So you wouldn't take Fedor against Werdum at -120?
Well I'd take BJ at -120 too, but he's at -310.
poopoo333
08-12-2010, 10:50 PM
I think Penn won the first fight and I think he will win this fight as well. But the first fight was close, I have no fucking clue why BJ is worse then -250. I will most likely stay away.
sideloaded
08-13-2010, 12:31 AM
BJ won the first fight just like shogun and the ufc is trying to fix the judges fuck up as fast as possible just like machida vs shogun 2. I would take bj up to -500 honestly this fight is over the first round.
MMA_scientist
08-13-2010, 10:21 AM
You guys are crazy. How can you pay 3:1 for a guy to fight the guy who JUST beat him. Even if you think Penn won, it was close. Why would it be any different this time? Edgar beats everyone @ LW too. BJ has lost more fights @ LW than Edgar. Edgard has fought some tough guys too.
I favor BJ, but I wouldn't pay a premium for the opportunity.
. . .the ufc is trying to fix the judges fuck up as fast as possible. . .
LOL
I scored the fight for BJ the first time I watched it. The second time--and maybe I was being subconsciously influenced by the result--I could see how it was scored for Frankie. I think Penn landed the heavier shots, but Edgar may have landed more shots total, and he did get at least one decent takedown.
You guys are crazy. How can you pay 3:1 for a guy to fight the guy who JUST beat him. Even if you think Penn won, it was close. Why would it be any different this time? Edgar beats everyone @ LW too. BJ has lost more fights @ LW than Edgar. Edgard has fought some tough guys too.
I favor BJ, but I wouldn't pay a premium for the opportunity.
I guess I just think BJ brings it this time. You can't disagree that BJ didn't really look like BJ. It's hard to say how much of that was due to Edgar's gameplan and how much of it was due to BJ not really bringing his A-game.
I agree that -300's a little steep, and I didn't say I would take him at the price. I just noted to the board that he had hit -310. Personally, I'd like -233, because after seeing the last fight I think Edgar probably beats him 30% of the time.
sideloaded
08-13-2010, 10:42 AM
This fight I don't really care about the lines. Ive went back and value betting based on lines is losing me money. I'm just betting straight who I think is going to win regardless of the odds. I'm going to see how that works out over the next few ufc events. I started it on Bellator taking Megu at -800. So far it's working.
MMA_scientist
08-13-2010, 11:16 AM
This fight I don't really care about the lines. Ive went back and value betting based on lines is losing me money. I'm just betting straight who I think is going to win regardless of the odds. I'm going to see how that works out over the next few ufc events. I started it on Bellator taking Megu at -800. So far it's working.
I am all for creating your own style... and whatever works. But you just HAVE to consider the line, you just have to. You will never make it long term without considering the line, it can't happen.
I bet favorites all the time, and I have made it work over a several years now. But you WILL hit losing streaks even betting on -400 fighters. You have to choose your favorites carefully. For me to pay -300 or so, it has to feel like an absolute lock-- he is going to win barring some totally unexpected occurence. I don't know, I just don't see this fight this way. I thought Frank had a chance before the first fight, and now I think he has an even better chance.
I think BJ will win, but I could totally see Frank getting it done again with either strikes or mixing in some takedowns and a little GNP.
I think BJ's good at -233 or better. Frankie at +350 or better.
Other than that and I'll probably stay away.
I'm with MMAscientist if I play anything over -300 it has to be a near lock'
Penn is far far from a near lock. It would have to be -175 or lower to get me to bet it
My gut tells me that Penn makes a statement this fight. But everything considered, I just can not bet him at the line ATM.
I mean seriously, if you are going to make a play this card on a line that high, why not just bet Randy. Would he not be more of a lock than Penn.
I also believe that the lines(as of late) have just been set too damn high on the favorites. Making some of the recent upsets seem larger than they should have been. 6 months to a year ago I could spot a couple of -150 to -220 guys on a card that I believed had good value. But recently those fights seemed to have dried up(at least in my mind).
I also believe that the lines(as of late) have just been set too damn high on the favorites. Making some of the recent upsets seem larger than they should have been. 6 months to a year ago I could spot a couple of -150 to -220 guys on a card that I believed had good value. But recently those fights seemed to have dried up(at least in my mind).
I've noticed this for sure. -150 to -220 is reserved for fights that really could go either way, it seems. I suppose that's correct in regard to the percentages, but shit, why they gotta be so literal about it?
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 03:15 PM
I know this is old, but still cracks me the fuck up.
From the mouth of one James Toney
“All fights starts standing and that’s my comfort zone, that’s my domain and he’ll have to enter it. If he thinks he can just walk up on me and take it to the ground he’s got another thing coming, I’ll toss a bitch to the side if I have to. It doesn't matter if it’s MMA, kickboxing, hopscotch I got the highest fight IQ in the game period. Six weeks will be more than enough to learn the clinch game and all that, you feel me. I’ll be ready don’t worry about that, thing is it won’t even get that far I’m [going to] sit him down in the first minute. Even if it does go to the ground I was told my grappling is at gold belt level, so he’s in trouble pretty much everywhere. You see these MMA guys getting knocked out by sissy punches, well time to step up and fight a real puncher.”
Six weeks will be more than enough to learn the clinch game and all that, you feel me.
LOL
BTW, do you think he was really serious about that "gold belt" comment or was he just fucking around?
You have to take into consideration that in Toney's mind he is the baddest man alive. He really believes it. He talks shit before every bing match like he is just going to destroy his opposition. So this nothing new.
I think this fight is going to be fun but ugly. I just can not wait to hear what Toney says after he gets whupped.
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:02 PM
Six weeks will be more than enough to learn the clinch game and all that, you feel me.
LOL
BTW, do you think he was really serious about that "gold belt" comment or was he just fucking around?
I think he is serious...LOL
Does every mma forum shut down with traffic if Toney KO's Couture in like 30 seconds?
^^^ Sherdog explodes.
Probably every boxing forum does, too.
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:07 PM
^^^ Sherdog explodes.
Probably every boxing forum does, too.
Im kind of with Luke. I wanna see Toney win, just to watch all the chaos.
Im kind of with Luke. I wanna see Toney win, just to watch all the chaos.
I think it would be awesome . Toney would never stop talking and would end up pissing off every MMA fan in America ::lmao::
Fuck that.
This fight is for the pride and honor of MMA! No way in hell I'd want to see Toney win. Just like I wouldn't want to see Mayweather beat BJ.
Fuck that.
This fight is for the pride and honor of MMA! No way in hell I'd want to see Toney win. Just like I wouldn't want to see Mayweather beat BJ.
You are soooo gay
MMA pride and honor ? Get the fuck outta of here.Whats is this fight going prove either way?
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:19 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/14mk9d.jpg
I just can not wait to hear what Toney says after he gets whupped.
Probably not a whole lot just like Sonnen,Rampage or anyone else that talks alot of shit and losses. Toney knows how to sell a fight is all. I'd say most all he says (besides he thinks he can win)is an acting job
http://i37.tinypic.com/14mk9d.jpg
OMFG I'm dying here
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao:: ::lmao::
and
::hammertime::
edman5555
08-13-2010, 04:30 PM
John Salter - Dan Miller.
JS is NAIA wrestling nat champ.
JS is winner of 2007 NAGA Nationals (No-Gi, middleweight) Expert Division, as well as the 2007 Casca Grossa (No-Gi, 175lb and up) Professional Division
7-0 amateur record. 5-1 professional.
1 loss to Gerald Harris. JS was a last minute replacement for this fight. If you read the play by play the first two rounds were very close. Harris caught him in the third, one play by play I read stated that the stoppage may have been premature.. I have not watched it yet but this Salter guy seems like he might be ok.
I know Dan Miller fairly well. BB in BJJ and decent standup. He wrestled up into high school.
I think Salter has a good shot at winning the takedown game here. High school vs NAIA wrestling champion. But Dan miller is a BJJ black belt that has submitted a lot of people and has way more experience. He will be the best ground guy Salter has ever faced.
So my questions are as follows:
Where does NAIA stand compared to D1, D2, D3?
What can you guys tell me about NAGA? How good do you have to be to win those tournaments and where does that stand when compared to a BB from Jamie Cruz?
Do you guys think that Salter can stifle Dan Millers BJJ if he gets him down?
Because I think he might be able to and Salters most definetely going to be an underdog.
You are soooo gay
MMA pride and honor ? Get the fuck outta of here.Whats is this fight going prove either way?
You know how boxing fans get about MMA. This is the LAST thing the sport needs. We'd never hear the end of it. Regardless of what it proves IN REALITY, it would prove plenty to the legions of delirious, fantasy-prone boxing fans out there who haunt the internet.
http://i37.tinypic.com/14mk9d.jpg
You're stupid.
And so is Luke for making it his sig.
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:40 PM
^^^you gotta admit, that was kind of clever.
^^^you gotta admit, that was kind of clever.
Oh, yes, quite clever. Wish I had thought of it myself.
But oh. . . Just wait. . . I will come up with something better. . .
You know how boxing fans get about MMA. This is the LAST thing the sport needs. We'd never hear the end of it. Regardless of what it proves IN REALITY, it would prove plenty to the legions of delirious, fantasy-prone boxing fans out there who haunt the internet.
Why do you care what internet boxing fans think?
I want Toney to win for the chaos .Just like I was rooting for Werdum and Sonnen for the same reasons
Most boxings fans look down on MMA because of the way the UFC is run not because they think the fighters arent talented athletes
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:43 PM
But oh. . . Just wait. . . I will come up with something better. . .
Cant wait. ::handshake::
I think Salter and Miranda may be the best dog picks of the card(assuming the lines).
Miller has good BJJ, but isnt it mostly when he gets dominant position. I am not sure he is very good off his back. Pretty sure he never even had Sonnen threatened off his back.
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:44 PM
You know how boxing fans get about MMA. This is the LAST thing the sport needs. We'd never hear the end of it. Regardless of what it proves IN REALITY, it would prove plenty to the legions of delirious, fantasy-prone boxing fans out there who haunt the internet.
I know what your saying here, I just love chaos.
Why do you care what internet boxing fans think?
I just don't want to hear their shit. Fuck them. And fuck their stupidity.
I want Toney to win for the chaos .Just like I was rooting for Werdum and Sonnen (R-Or) for the same reasons
That's different. That's shit within the family. Boxers, as talented as many of them may be, are outsiders and represent an outside threat. MMA is superior and must be shown to be so.
Most boxings fans look down on MMA because of the way the UFC is run not because they think the fighters arent talented athletes
Bullshit.
I don't know how many times I've had to hear from boxing fans about how Anderson Silva is a dominant boxer in MMA but got knocked out in boxing.
Of course they fail to mention that that shit happened in 1996 and that it was his first boxing match and that, you know, it's not like fighters improve as they gain more experience.
I hope James Toney stuffs Randy's takedowns, drops him with strikes, and wins by rear naked choke.
That would be the most hilarious.
Mr. IWS
08-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Can I do a Toney/Beltran parlay for the contest?
I just don't want to hear their shit. Fuck them. And fuck their stupidity.
In all seriousness MMA fans are way worse than boxing fans. There are MMA people that think Silva-Sonnen was a fixed fight .Nuff said
MMA is superior and must be shown to be so.
superior how? know you sound like the internet people you're complaining about
I don't know how many times I've had to hear from boxing fans about how Anderson Silva is a dominant boxer in MMA but got knocked out in boxing.
Of course they fail to mention that that shit happened in 1996 and that it was his first boxing match and that, you know, it's not like fighters improve as they gain more experience.
So you think Silva would be a good boxer now ?
I hope James Toney stuffs Randy's takedowns, drops him with strikes, and wins by rear naked choke.
That would be the most hilarious.
I'd piss my pants laughing if that happened .No doubt he'd call out Lesnar right after
Can I do a Toney/Beltran parlay for the contest?
LOL the contest is over before this event happens
Damn I cant find any Toney by submission odds
edman5555
08-13-2010, 05:12 PM
Damn I cant find any Toney by submission odds
Toney by submission probably pay out 100 times what you bet.
In all seriousness MMA fans are way worse than boxing fans. There are MMA people that think Silva-Sonnen (R-Or) was a fixed fight .Nuff said
So boxers never think a fight is fixed?
superior how? know you sound like the internet people you're complaining about
Superior for the same reason that everyone knows BJ Penn would beat the shit out of Mayweather 9 times out of 10 if they met each other on the street.
So you think Silva would be a good boxer now ?
Why wouldn't he? He's obviously phenomenally talented and he would've had 14 years to focus on nothing but boxing.
Superior for the same reason that everyone knows BJ Penn would beat the shit out of Mayweather 9 times out of 10 if they met each other on the street.
LOL you got to be kidding .Thats how you define the superior sport? Street fighting ? Just so you know street fights are suppose to be fought on ones feet .Come SPX you sound just like the people you're complaining about
Why wouldn't he? He's obviously phenomenally talented and he would've had 14 years to focus on nothing but boxing
I meant if he switched sports today do you think he'd be a good boxer ?
There's no such thing as a superior sport imo.Its like comparing basketball to football
LOL you got to be kidding .Thats how you define the superior sport? Street fighting ? Just so you know street fights are suppose to be fought on ones feet. Come SPX you sound just like the people you're complaining about
Not superior sport . . . superior as a combat form. I'm saying that combat obviously becomes more pure as you strip away the rules and limitations. MMA then will obviously produce better FIGHTERS, generally speaking. Okay, so BJ and Mayweather face each other at UFC 1 and BJ wins.
In terms of sports, I agree that it's not a valid argument. But then, really, boxing and MMA are no better than taekwondo or Shotokan or whatever else.
I meant if he switched sports today do you think he'd be a good boxer?
I'm sure he wouldn't be a champ, but I think he could hang with mid-level guys at least.
In any case, the argument boxing fans use this for is to say that boxers are better fighters because Silva got knocked out in a boxing match 14 years ago . . . his very first boxing match ever . . . before he even fought in an MMA match.
Really?
edman5555
08-13-2010, 06:03 PM
John Salter - Dan Miller.
JS is NAIA wrestling nat champ.
JS is winner of 2007 NAGA Nationals (No-Gi, middleweight) Expert Division, as well as the 2007 Casca Grossa (No-Gi, 175lb and up) Professional Division
7-0 amateur record. 5-1 professional.
1 loss to Gerald Harris. JS was a last minute replacement for this fight. If you read the play by play the first two rounds were very close. Harris caught him in the third, one play by play I read stated that the stoppage may have been premature.. I have not watched it yet but this Salter guy seems like he might be ok.
I know Dan Miller fairly well. BB in BJJ and decent standup. He wrestled up into high school.
I think Salter has a good shot at winning the takedown game here. High school vs NAIA wrestling champion. But Dan miller is a BJJ black belt that has submitted a lot of people and has way more experience. He will be the best ground guy Salter has ever faced.
So my questions are as follows:
Where does NAIA stand compared to D1, D2, D3?
What can you guys tell me about NAGA? How good do you have to be to win those tournaments and where does that stand when compared to a BB from Jamie Cruz?
Do you guys think that Salter can stifle Dan Millers BJJ if he gets him down?
Because I think he might be able to and Salters most definetely going to be an underdog.
Bumping my own thread here to keep the non "yo mama" part of it going. I just rewatched Gray Maynard Nate diaz and I'm glad I did. I was wrong when I said before that Nate Diaz won it. Gray definetly deserved the decision. He is actually really quick on his feet with his punches.
I also noticed something about Kenny Florians record. He gets most of his wins by submission. From what I remember he typically beats them up and then gets them down for the sub. Gray was a top of line D1 wrestler, Kenny most likely isn't getting him down unless he really stuns him. I also don't think Gray will be afraid to take kenny down like he was with nate diaz, he doesnt have to worry about those crazy triangles. I'm not saying Kflo isnt dangerous off his back but I'm not certain he will end it there.
I'm starting to lean towards Gray. He has decent striking, power and he can dictate where the fight goes..he is also the Udog now.
Nate diaz/marcus davis. I'm actually thinking about taking Davis, maybe Davis by Decision for a small amount of money. I think he might be able to outbox Nate diaz for two rounds without getting taken down. I'd only do a small play on this though because Nate is good in my opinion.
So far:
I am on Nik Lentz already for 4u.
Thinking about Ozi, Gray Maynard, Marcus Davis, and Greg Salter.
No longer thinking about Mario Miranda. Damien is just too nasty on the ground to bet against.
Not superior sport . . . superior as a combat form. .
correct
In terms of sports, I agree that it's not a valid argument. But then, really, boxing and MMA are no better than taekwondo or Shotokan or whatever else.
This is the statement I agree with most . I dont consider MMA,boxing ,BJJ etc to be better than TKD, Karate or anything else .Each are different and in my mind need to be treated that way
In any case, the argument boxing fans use this for is to say that boxers are better fighters because Silva got knocked out in a boxing match 14 years ago . . . his very first boxing match ever . . . before he even fought in an MMA match.
Really?
People as a whole are stupid and you need to remember that ::handshake::
Bumping my own thread here to keep the non "yo mama" part of it going. I just rewatched Gray Maynard Nate diaz and I'm glad I did. I was wrong when I said before that Nate Diaz won it. Gray definetly deserved the decision. He is actually really quick on his feet with his punches.
I also noticed something about Kenny Florians record. He gets most of his wins by submission. From what I remember he typically beats them up and then gets them down for the sub. Gray was a top of line D1 wrestler, Kenny most likely isn't getting him down unless he really stuns him. I also don't think Gray will be afraid to take kenny down like he was with nate diaz, he doesnt have to worry about those crazy triangles. I'm not saying Kflo isnt dangerous off his back but I'm not certain he will end it there.
I'm starting to lean towards Gray. He has decent striking, power and he can dictate where the fight goes..he is also the Udog now.
Nate diaz/marcus davis. I'm actually thinking about taking Davis, maybe Davis by Decision for a small amount of money. I think he might be able to outbox Nate diaz for two rounds without getting taken down. I'd only do a small play on this though because Nate is good in my opinion.
So far:
I am on Nik Lentz already for 4u.
Thinking about Ozi, Gray Maynard, Marcus Davis, and Greg Salter.
No longer thinking about Mario Miranda. Damien is just too nasty on the ground to bet against.
Sorry we're off topic so much but this is 15 days away so I havent really got serious about it yet . We have a WEC event and SF before this so I'll have to look at them first ::handshake::
Bernard Hopkins Doesn't Believe in Toney. . .
There are many, many reasons for James Toney to feel uncomfortable in the Octagon on August 28, but there are two factors that aren’t getting a lot of play: gloves and shoes. One is shrinking, and one is disappearing.
Boxers wear shoes for traction: they plant their feet and throw, driving up from the ground to generate power. If you spend two decades wearing shoes and then begin throwing punches without them, I guarantee it’s going to feel alien. Toney had them, and now he doesn’t.
The boxer is also moving from the big foam clubs to four-ounce grappling mitts, and while that’s usually a sign of sadism -- if he can maul with bigger gloves, imagine what he can do without -- it’s also going to affect Toney’s defense. Boxers can protect themselves with the same tool they use as a weapon. If Toney instinctively puts his hands up expecting coverage, a hand is going to slice through.
These are not points Bernard Hopkins brought up during an interview with Hardcore Sports Radio (and uncovered by Cagewriter) this week, but the argument is still the same: Toney is out of his element.
"When you step out into a situation where, against a legend too in his own sport. I believe, and I'll go on the record, that the best MMA guy or UFC guy go up against the best boxer in the world in their arena, in their arena gets their ass kicked,” he said. “I don't care who it is, whether Floyd, Pacquiao, Bernard Hopkins, they get their ass kicked. That is not what we do."
Hopkins is 90% there. Two kinds of boxers would have modest success in MMA: the highly athletic and the highly aggressive. Mike Tyson had the fuel injection momentum of Melvin Manhoef without the kicks, and Manhoef has earned wins despite having no ground aptitude whatsoever. Sometimes a guy’s sheer steamrolling is enough.
The second contingent would resemble the early Mirko “Cro Cop” Filipovic: a hyper-athletic striker who can pick up defensive wrestling quickly. A few years ago, maybe the Klitchkos could’ve pulled it off.
I’m not willing, as Hopkins is, to totally dismiss any boxer’s chances in MMA. But Toney, with his plodding, gut-slop style, ain’t the guy.
Svino
08-13-2010, 08:44 PM
In terms of sports, I agree that it's not a valid argument. But then, really, boxing and MMA are no better than taekwondo or Shotokan or whatever else.
This is the statement I agree with most . I dont consider MMA,boxing ,BJJ etc to be better than TKD, Karate or anything else .Each are different and in my mind need to be treated that way
I guess it depends on what you mean by better. While I love MMA, a lot of what I like about it is how close it is to a "real" activity like fighting. As a pure sport, I think it has a lot of flaws, like the fact that organizations promote and schedule fighters based on their entertainment value as much as on their ability to win, and that the sport relies on subjective judging. (How many guys have you heard use a similar complaint to say that diving, gymnastics, or figure skating aren't "real" sports?)
And there's definitely a big difference between combat sports in terms of the talent they attract. Some sports just draw a lot more top-quality athletes and therefore provide a higher level of competition in that respect. I don't know how boxing and MMA would stack up here, but I'm sure one of the big reasons wrestlers do so well in MMA is that wrestling makes up such a huge pool of good athletes. A top wrestler is someone who has proven that they can climb to the top of a much bigger pyramid than (say) a kyokushin or sambo champ has.
Bernard Hopkins Doesn't Believe in Toney. . .
From what I remember Toney and Hopkins dont like each other.
Toney is not the right guy to make the jump to MMA. Toney is wayyy out of shape .He might come in 220-230+ for the fight and his best weight is 185.
Toney has zero footwork so its going to make him it easier to take him down.
Toney is not an offensive fighter ,he's a counter puncher so he's use to standing sideways instead of a conventional MMA/Boxer stance
Toney is not a power puncher like say Mercer was when he beat Sylvia
Toney is lazy ,he hasnt trained hard for a fight in 10 years so I really wonder how serious he's taking this.Even if Toney can sprawl he'll probably still get stuck up against the cage and pinned there like Vera did
So he shouldnt stand a chance against the former 205 and HW champ
poopoo333
08-14-2010, 01:15 AM
This fight I don't really care about the lines. Ive went back and value betting based on lines is losing me money. I'm just betting straight who I think is going to win regardless of the odds. I'm going to see how that works out over the next few ufc events. I started it on Bellator taking Megu at -800. So far it's working.
Are you going to bet on Randy?
sideloaded
08-14-2010, 01:42 AM
This fight I don't really care about the lines. Ive went back and value betting based on lines is losing me money. I'm just betting straight who I think is going to win regardless of the odds. I'm going to see how that works out over the next few ufc events. I started it on Bellator taking Megu at -800. So far it's working.
Are you going to bet on Randy?
Yes big.
MMA_scientist
08-14-2010, 09:27 AM
Edman,
I thought Miller wrestled D1... I looked it up, you are right. I am on Salter too now.
Like Luke said, I will get serious about this event when all lines are out.
I was thinking Lentz, but I am off of that fight all together now. I think Winner may be able to stuff him.
I was leaning Gray, but sbjj talked me out of it.
I was leaning OZ, but now think Soto might be able to top control him.
I was leaning Diaz, but I am worried he will just stand and trade with Davis. Davis has had trouble with rangy strikers (Swick/Hardy) but Diaz is not nearly as good a striker as those guys.
I like Maia to win, but it depends on the line.
I like Harris, but he will be too steep.
I got nothing here. Salter is looking like the play here.
edman5555
08-14-2010, 09:55 PM
Update: Lentz actually was a scholrship wrestler for the Univerity of Minnesota. I don't think he was ever a varsity wrestler, but it looks like he wrestled 2 years there. UM is obviously a powerhouse wrestling school, one of the best programs.
from niklentz.com:
"While wrestling for the University of Minnesota, Nik Lentz realized his genuine talent and love for the sport and decided to take his wrestling fad to a new level. In 2005, Lentz began to train for MMA."
it also says something similar on several other sites
Why is a scholarship wrestler a bad thing? I took that as meaning he was a good wrestler so he got a scholarship? What does it actually mean?
MMA_scientist
08-14-2010, 10:52 PM
^^ I meant it as a good thing. He wrestled on a very high profile division I team. I meant his wrestling cred is more impressive than I thought originally.
edman5555
08-14-2010, 11:47 PM
^^ I meant it as a good thing. He wrestled on a very high profile division I team. I meant his wrestling cred is more impressive than I thought originally.
That would lead me to beleive he could take down Winner. He is a brit after all heh. I mean that half seriously. I already have about 4u on him. We'll see. I'll def be on salter. I'll prob even do some 2-3 fighter parlays for this one. I won 4u on one for fitch/hughes last time.
MMA_scientist
08-16-2010, 09:34 AM
I am staying away from Lentz now. I think it will be a very very close fight... If they offer a decision prop, I will consider that.
I am still thinking about Osipczac.
I am off of Diaz now too.
Hopefully the rest of the lines will offer something worthwhile.
poopoo333
08-16-2010, 11:34 AM
This card kind of sucks for betting. Fights are too close. I'm on Florian so far and that's it.
sideloaded
08-16-2010, 11:42 AM
I'm just going to take the bookies money and put my bankroll on Couture.
MMA_scientist
08-16-2010, 11:58 AM
^^ I am going to be putting 6.4u on Randy for the recently revived neverending locks parlay.
Also, you are not taking the book's money... you are taking some other guy's money, some guy that bet on Toney. The book doesn't care who wins.
sideloaded
08-16-2010, 12:02 PM
^^ I am going to be putting 6.4u on Randy for the recently revived neverending locks parlay.
Also, you are not taking the book's money... you are taking some other guy's money, some guy that bet on Toney. The book doesn't care who wins.
Well at the dawn of time it was his money at some point.
sideloaded
08-16-2010, 12:03 PM
^^ I am going to be putting 6.4u on Randy for the recently revived neverending locks parlay.
Also, you are not taking the book's money... you are taking some other guy's money, some guy that bet on Toney. The book doesn't care who wins.
Where is the neverending locks parlay located?
MMA_scientist
08-16-2010, 12:54 PM
^^ I am going to be putting 6.4u on Randy for the recently revived neverending locks parlay.
Also, you are not taking the book's money... you are taking some other guy's money, some guy that bet on Toney. The book doesn't care who wins.
Where is the neverending locks parlay located?
In my mind. There is a thread on it somewhere. It is basically boxing and mma fights that are way too high to bet, but they are definitely going to win. I have only made 2 bets on it so far (Abel Cullem @ -800 and Phil Davis @ -715). I don't put stuff in there like BJ/Edgar where they other guy is actually a skilled fighter and has a chance. It is reserved for fights where the other guy has no chance- like when Mousasi fought Goodridge last year... I was going to put Lashley's last fight in it, but it got pulled.
I started with a separate bankroll of 5u- and I am just going to keep betting the entire bankroll until I chicken out and take it down.
I will find the thread and bump it when I actually make the play.
poopoo333
08-16-2010, 04:35 PM
I am off of Diaz now too.
Why? I think Davis might be worth a small play, but I think Diaz has some value @ -200. I can see Davis getting inside and moving in and out and landing some nice shots, I think Diaz may have an overrated chin, he was dropped by Guillard and I think he was stumbled by Maynard..both LWs. Davis is bigger, more powerful, and has better boxing.
Does Diaz have a significant reach advantage?
edman5555
08-16-2010, 04:38 PM
I am off of Diaz now too.
Why? I think Davis might be worth a small play, but I think Diaz has some value @ -200. I can see Davis getting inside and moving in and out and landing some nice shots, I think Diaz may have an overrated chin, he was dropped by Guillard and I think he was stumbled by Maynard..both LWs. Davis is bigger, more powerful, and has better boxing.
Does Diaz have a significant reach advantage?
He was definetly dropped by Gray Maynard. I just rewatched that fight.
I've already made a small play on Davis. Diaz is an untested commodity at WW and Davis can give anyone problems.
MMA_scientist
08-16-2010, 04:46 PM
Poopoo, I just think Diaz is going to be even at best with Davis standing. If he gets it down (insert generic bjj comment here).
I am afraid that Diaz will just try to stand and bang the whole time. Also, he has shown some nice takedown skills, he launched Neer. BUt they were against guys that tied up with him... I think Davis might be wanting to just box.
I think was selling Davis short based on his recent woes. He lost to Swick, who is good and it was close. He lost to Hardy, who is good and it was close. And he got whupped by Saunders, which I am writing off as Davis being unprepared for a standup fight... I think he thought Saunders was goinf to want to grapple him. Diaz can't hurt him standing... so it comes down to whether Diaz does the smart thing... betting on a Diaz to do something smart is probably not a great idea. I think Nate will just stand and talk shit while losing the boxing match. I am not betting on Davis though, because if Nate does decide to grapple, I think he can get teh takedown with a good gameplan...
edman5555
08-16-2010, 04:50 PM
According to Wikipedia Diaz has a 76" reach and Davis has a 70" reach. Maynard also has a 70" reach and MG has a 71" reach. This is according to Wiki, so it could very well be wrong.
Nate has 3 wins via KO. Two no names and Rory Markham who has 6 losses via tko/ko. Marcus has more KO wins but he is also prone to cuts which could be bad against a guy like Nate who is going to pepper him with punches all night.
Submission edge you have to give to Nate though Davis has won a lot of fights that way. He has actually won more fight by sub than he has by tko/ko.
This one is tough.
Mr. IWS
08-16-2010, 04:53 PM
I would lean towards Nate, but no play for me.
edman5555
08-16-2010, 05:28 PM
I would lean towards Nate, but no play for me.
yeah same here. I made a small parlay with nate/lent/florian but I'm not even sure about those plays. This card is hard.
brooks85
08-16-2010, 05:41 PM
hey I saw you talking about nates and marcus reach, I got .doc i keep of height and reach for a lot of mma fighters. Ive been a little lazy now but it is a good size list if anyone wants a copy or me to post it.
As far as the matchup go, im all over Nate.
In the past 9 diaz bro matchups, ive picked the winner 9 times(can back this up with evidence). Aside from their personalities sometimes, i feel like I cap their strengths/weaknesses very well. I see this fight staying on the feet and marcus will be eating jabs all night. One thing to worry about the diaz bros tho, is their head movement is garbage. That is basically why nate lost to maynard. I bet maynard, tho I personally thought he should have lost.
edman5555
08-16-2010, 05:55 PM
hey I saw you talking about nates and marcus reach, I got .doc i keep of height and reach for a lot of mma fighters. Ive been a little lazy now but it is a good size list if anyone wants a copy or me to post it.
As far as the matchup go, im all over Nate.
In the past 9 diaz bro matchups, ive picked the winner 9 times(can back this up with evidence). Aside from their personalities sometimes, i feel like I cap their strengths/weaknesses very well. I see this fight staying on the feet and marcus will be eating jabs all night. One thing to worry about the diaz bros tho, is their head movement is garbage. That is basically why nate lost to maynard. I bet maynard, tho I personally thought he should have lost.
You thought Diaz should have got the D? I thought that the first time I watched it but then I watched it again and I think Gray won it. He dropped Diaz twice.
edman5555
08-16-2010, 05:56 PM
As for reach I am concerned about the source. Mine is wiki. Who knows if that is right. Where is yours?
brooks85
08-16-2010, 05:59 PM
I havent watched the fight in forever, I did forget about maynard dropping him, that would definitely be a difference maker.
As far as source, I use the "tale of the tape" before the ufc fights. Ive found some sources are off but I think fightmagazine does a good job. I paid the ufclive price for the online videos and just started doing a ton of research and gathering the numbers myself.
Honestly you can't trust the tale of the tape either. It's a good tool obviously, but I wouldn't rely on it's accuracy.
For instance, Thiago Alves' reach has gone anywhere from 68" all the way up to 77" and everywhere in between on the tale of the tape, which is just an outlandish difference. I'm not sure how they measure it or if the they just go by what the fighters tell them.
Honestly you can't trust the tale of the tape either. It's a good tool obviously, but I wouldn't rely on it's accuracy.
For instance, Thiago Alves' reach has gone anywhere from 68" all the way up to 77" and everywhere in between on the tale of the tape, which is just an outlandish difference. I'm not sure how they measure it or if the they just go by what the fighters tell them.
You can't trust ANYTHING the UFC says in regard to measurements. That shit is totally fucked.
Hell, I'm not even sure they get the ages right.
brooks85
08-16-2010, 07:34 PM
what tale of the tape said thiago alves had a 77'' reach?
poopoo333
08-16-2010, 09:06 PM
Done watching vids on Winner/Lentz. This is going to be a very close fight imo. Winner showed good TDD against Oliveria, and Oliveria was able to take Lentz down. Lentz doesn't seem to have a relentless and powerful TD attack, and his opponents are able to get back up to their feet often as well. Emerson had trouble in the 3rd round, but Emerson was a dumbass and pulled guard when he was doing fine on the feet. Winner seemed to slow down at the end of the Pearson fight (he also defended Pearson's takedowns as well) and he got really tired in the Oliveira fight...neither of these fights were that fast paced. Lentz' seems to push the pace standing up and in the clinch and I can see him wearing Winner down. I do think Lentz will have a hard time taking and keeping Winner down. Winner doesn't throw many kicks so I'm not worried about him getting a kick caught and taken to the mat. But speaking of kicks, Oliveira ate Winner's legs for breakfast in the 2nd and 3rd round, but I'm not sure Lentz can do the same thing.
Yeah, so those are my observations.
No bet.
I just wasted all this time watching some mediocre fights for nothing!
edman5555
08-16-2010, 09:18 PM
Done watching vids on Winner/Lentz. This is going to be a very close fight imo. Winner showed good TDD against Oliveria, and Oliveria was able to take Lentz down. Lentz doesn't seem to have a relentless and powerful TD attack, and his opponents are able to get back up to their feet often as well. Emerson had trouble in the 3rd round, but Emerson was a dumbass and pulled guard when he was doing fine on the feet. Winner seemed to slow down at the end of the Pearson fight (he also defended Pearson's takedowns as well) and he got really tired in the Oliveira fight...neither of these fights were that fast paced. Lentz' seems to push the pace standing up and in the clinch and I can see him wearing Winner down. I do think Lentz will have a hard time taking and keeping Winner down. Winner doesn't throw many kicks so I'm not worried about him getting a kick caught and taken to the mat. But speaking of kicks, Oliveira ate Winner's legs for breakfast in the 2nd and 3rd round, but I'm not sure Lentz can do the same thing.
Yeah, so those are my observations.
No bet.
I just wasted all this time watching some mediocre fights for nothing!
It's not for nothing. Everyone learns from what you observed.
brooks85
08-16-2010, 09:54 PM
I have yet to have a serious issue with tale of the tape but ive had many searching for info on the web. That UFC 66 would be to old too use for me anyways but a 77'' must have been a typo.
MMA_scientist
08-16-2010, 11:18 PM
Done watching vids on Winner/Lentz. This is going to be a very close fight imo. Winner showed good TDD against Oliveria, and Oliveria was able to take Lentz down. Lentz doesn't seem to have a relentless and powerful TD attack, and his opponents are able to get back up to their feet often as well. Emerson had trouble in the 3rd round, but Emerson was a dumbass and pulled guard when he was doing fine on the feet. Winner seemed to slow down at the end of the Pearson fight (he also defended Pearson's takedowns as well) and he got really tired in the Oliveira fight...neither of these fights were that fast paced. Lentz' seems to push the pace standing up and in the clinch and I can see him wearing Winner down. I do think Lentz will have a hard time taking and keeping Winner down. Winner doesn't throw many kicks so I'm not worried about him getting a kick caught and taken to the mat. But speaking of kicks, Oliveira ate Winner's legs for breakfast in the 2nd and 3rd round, but I'm not sure Lentz can do the same thing.
Yeah, so those are my observations.
No bet.
I just wasted all this time watching some mediocre fights for nothing!
It's not for nothing. Everyone learns from what you observed.
Thanks poopoo. Pretty much my observations too, no bet for me either.
poopoo333
08-20-2010, 01:40 PM
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/526188/2ahtklu_medium.jpg
http://www.boxingscene.com/uploads/30199/bennett_toney_workout%20036.jpg
http://www.boxingscene.com/uploads/30199/bennett_toney_workout%20089.jpg
poopoo333
08-20-2010, 01:44 PM
"I know some fighters that have been training with Toney. One of them a 235lbs former all american freestyle. Another 225lb BJJ brown belt under Rickson Gracie, they are both surprised by Toney. They said there are 3 factors that make it very hard to wrestle or grapple him. First his movement and footwork. Whenever they get close enough to grab him, he steps one side or the other and throws counter punches(not for hard they would not roll with him unless he promised not to). He also bends very quickly at the waist and they grab air while he pushes them back quickly. Also, his rounded, kind of stubby body shape make it very hard to grab him. And they said that he gets a profuse sweat very fast and he is extremely slick in almost no time. Third, when they are able to get any kind of clinch(and they say its when he basically lets them) they said he is deceptively strong and has incredible balance. I wont make any predictions just relaying some facts from real fighters that aren’t pumping things up like King Mo was. These guys have both worked out at EXCOUT with Randy in the past, and they are genuinely wondering how Randy gets the fight down without getting hit often and accurately."
-Some poster on bloody elbow.
^^^ You know, at +500 I will probably drop .25u on Toney. Why not?
sideloaded
08-20-2010, 01:51 PM
This is starting to look like a trap fight for Couture. Damn I was gonna lay a lot on Randy too.
poopoo333
08-20-2010, 01:53 PM
^^^ You know, at +500 I will probably drop .25u on Toney. Why not?
I wouldn't doubt him hitting +600 by fight night.
Well if some poster on Bloody Elbow said so
Well if some poster on Bloody Elbow said so
I'm not saying the guy was legit, but you also can't assume that someone is lying, either. People know people.
Well if some poster on Bloody Elbow said so
I'm not saying the guy was legit, but you also can't assume that someone is lying, either. People know people.
Yeah. And I've also seen plenty of posts saying people close to Toney say he isn't even training for MMA at all. It's all nonsense. I saw BJ Penn at the airport.
sideloaded
08-20-2010, 03:17 PM
When did you see BJ at the airport? Is he in shape?
poopoo333
08-20-2010, 03:18 PM
http://www.bestfightodds.com/fights/3004.png (http://www.bestfightodds.com)
When did you see BJ at the airport? Is he in shape?
After UFC 63. he also showed me his rib and it was sticking out of his chest grotesquely
poopoo333
08-20-2010, 03:23 PM
When did you see BJ at the airport? Is he in shape?
God damnit sideloaded.
BJ Penn - "I'm the guy that doesn't want to let the sport pass me by. I want to stay at the forefront of this whole thing. ... I believe if I had won that fight I would have changed nothing about my game."
"I definitely think this (is the prime of my career). I'm 31. I have tons of experience. I'm not looking past Frankie, but I think I'm about to go on a run."
"The loss to Frankie made me step back and realize I want to fight as much as I can. ... I don't know if my biological clock is ticking or what, but I want to fight as much as possible. I want to make a push to be a true fighter, and I think I could be very active."
"There's always much to accomplish anywhere. Even if you do clean out a division and go to welterweight, there's going to be a new Frankie. There's always going to be another one popping up."
"I thought I was God's gift to fighting. I thought I would go 100-0 with 100 knockouts. When I sit back and look at my record, I can't believe I have six losses. It just blows me away."
"No one is untouchable — and if they are, they just haven't run into the right guy yet."
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/event/S0yb62n1
Thewiseman
08-20-2010, 05:57 PM
Why is Maia -160?? I must be missing something. 3.2u on Maia.
"I know some fighters that have been training with Toney. One of them a 235lbs former all american freestyle. Another 225lb BJJ brown belt under Rickson Gracie, they are both surprised by Toney. They said there are 3 factors that make it very hard to wrestle or grapple him. First his movement and footwork. Whenever they get close enough to grab him, he steps one side or the other and throws counter punches(not for hard they would not roll with him unless he promised not to). He also bends very quickly at the waist and they grab air while he pushes them back quickly. Also, his rounded, kind of stubby body shape make it very hard to grab him. And they said that he gets a profuse sweat very fast and he is extremely slick in almost no time. Third, when they are able to get any kind of clinch(and they say its when he basically lets them) they said he is deceptively strong and has incredible balance. I wont make any predictions just relaying some facts from real fighters that aren’t pumping things up like King Mo was. These guys have both worked out at EXCOUT with Randy in the past, and they are genuinely wondering how Randy gets the fight down without getting hit often and accurately."
-Some poster on bloody elbow.
I dont believe any of that crap
I wouldnt believe a single thing bloodyelbow says .They are the worst EVER.
Arent they the ones that said Carwins best round is his 5th?
nuff said
When did you see BJ at the airport? Is he in shape?
::lmao::
Did you ban yourself sideloaded
Why is Maia -160?? I must be missing something. 3.2u on Maia.
He opened at -400 a few hours ago.
Why is Maia -160?? I must be missing something. 3.2u on Maia.
I dont think your missing anything
[
He opened at -400 a few hours ago.
-400 to -160 ::jaydrop::
why?
ManBoobKilla
08-21-2010, 04:46 PM
[
He opened at -400 a few hours ago.
-400 to -160 ::jaydrop::
why?
I think that Miranda might take this one. Fighters have figured out Maia and know that if they go to the ground, they will lose. Miranda is a freestyle and greco roman champ with a legit bjj black belt (not saying that means much against Maia though). I think with Mirandas wrestling Maia will have a hard time getting the takedown, which will force him to stand with the surprisengly hard hitting Miranda, making Miranda a very good dog bet
^^^ I'll have to look at this one. I was just going off memory and no research
edman5555
08-22-2010, 03:13 PM
I was thinking about Miranda before but now the line is crazy. I have a hard time betting against Maia. He can catch just about anyone. Chael is a better wrestler than Miranda I'll bet, though he isnt a bb in bjj. I think this one is 50 50.
I was thinking about Miranda before but now the line is crazy. I have a hard time betting against Maia. He can catch just about anyone. Chael is a better wrestler than Miranda I'll bet, though he isnt a bb in bjj. I think this one is 50 50.
If it's truly 50/50 then +160 is still a hell of a deal on Miranda. . .
The preview for the Countdown show is up on UFC.com. I like how they have to use subtitles for Toney. That's a nice touch.
poopoo333
08-23-2010, 10:05 AM
0.25u Davis by (T)KO @+700
MMA_scientist
08-23-2010, 03:10 PM
Why is Maia -160?? I must be missing something. 3.2u on Maia.
He opened at -400 a few hours ago.
lots of value on Miranda @ +300...
Line is about right now. I missed the opening line. Miranda was standing pretty well with Gerald Harris until he got KO'd. It looks like Miranda will have a striking edge. And his wrestling base should help him keep it on the feet at least some of the time. I think Maia will surprise him with his takedown ability and win... but I wouldn't be shocked at all if Miranda got it done with strikes and a little bit of top control. Miranda is a very good bjj guy himself.
Art Jimmerson Talks James Toney:
http://www.fullmount.co.uk/index.php/mm ... oney-ufc-1 (http://www.fullmount.co.uk/index.php/mma-news/1-latest-news/739-art-one-glove-jimmerson-talks-james-toney-ufc-1)
BTW, the official method of Jimmerson's loss to Royce is: Submission (Bad Position) . . . and that shit just cracks me up.
poopoo333
08-23-2010, 10:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahOLe5z3Ek
This just gives me a reassuring feeling about Saturday.
(nobody mention Mercer/Sylvia)
^^^ Three observations.
1. Kimbo just went out there and did work! He never really looked that into it in any of his UFC fights.
2. That ending is hilarious. Dan M. shoves Kimbo's head into the mat . . . then Mercer threatens to hit Kimbo . . . then Dan M. pushes Mercer down.
3. Those announcers are also hilarious. "WAR KIMBO!!!!!!!!!" Really? Okay.
He's like a wild animal!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahOLe5z3Ek
This just gives me a reassuring feeling about Saturday.
(nobody mention Mercer/Sylvia)
I think you can take just as much from Kimbo-Mercer as you can Mercer-Sylvia
^^^ Three observations.
1. Kimbo just went out there and did work! He never really looked that into it in any of his UFC fights.
2. That ending is hilarious. Dan M. shoves Kimbo's head into the mat . . . then Mercer threatens to hit Kimbo . . . then Dan M. pushes Mercer down.
3. Those announcers are also hilarious. "WAR KIMBO!!!!!!!!!" Really? Okay.
The sad part about the video is Kimbo took Mercer down twice and still somehow ended up on the bottom.
What would have happened if Mercer popped his head out? Would that have been the end of the Kimbo legend right then?
that video is so amatuer I dont think you can take much from it
poopoo333
08-24-2010, 12:54 AM
Undercard lines out.
MMA_scientist
08-24-2010, 09:56 AM
.45u on Salter @ +200
only bet I am making. I can't find anything I like on the card. I really don't even like the Salter bet that much.
If I was not a fan, I would bet Miranda too most likely. I am not betting Maia (I have bet Maia in every UFC fight but the first).
If I was not a fan, I would bet Miranda too most likely. I am not betting Maia (I have bet Maia in every UFC fight but the first).
What happened to ABOM?
MMA_scientist
08-24-2010, 11:01 AM
If I was not a fan, I would bet Miranda too most likely. I am not betting Maia (I have bet Maia in every UFC fight but the first).
What happened to ABOM?
Yeah. I don't have a good feeling here. I might toss down 10 bucks to keep the Maia streak alive.
Anyone got a link to the Harris/Salter vid?
poopoo333
08-24-2010, 01:13 PM
Anyone got a link to the Harris/Salter vid?
http://mmavideolinks.to/mma-events/56-u ... ideos.html (http://mmavideolinks.to/mma-events/56-ufc-ultimate-fight-night/7361-ufn-20-videos.html)
http://mmavideolinks.to/mma-events/56-u ... ideos.html (http://mmavideolinks.to/mma-events/56-ufc-ultimate-fight-night/7361-ufn-20-videos.html)
Awesome, dude. Thanks.
Been looking all over for that.
edman5555
08-24-2010, 05:39 PM
http://mmavideolinks.to/mma-events/56-u ... ideos.html (http://mmavideolinks.to/mma-events/56-ufc-ultimate-fight-night/7361-ufn-20-videos.html)
Awesome, dude. Thanks.
Been looking all over for that.
This bet is a tough one. Salter took that fight on one weeks notice. He won the first round and got his nose smacked hard. So he was fighting on one weeks training and he couldnt breath through his nose. Dan Miller is quite a bit more exp than him. I feel like Salter can probably take him down and hang with him standing but I am worried Miller might catch him in a sub.
This bet is a tough one. Salter took that fight on one weeks notice. He won the first round and got his nose smacked hard. So he was fighting on one weeks training and he couldnt breath through his nose. Dan Miller is quite a bit more exp than him. I feel like Salter can probably take him down and hang with him standing but I am worried Miller might catch him in a sub.
Dude, Salter straight FUCKED J-Mac up in like 60 seconds. Did you not see that shit????
edman5555
08-24-2010, 05:44 PM
Gabe Reudiger looks to be pretty good. I think he might be able do submit Joe Lauzon.
Is Lauzon a good wrestler?
edman5555
08-24-2010, 05:44 PM
This bet is a tough one. Salter took that fight on one weeks notice. He won the first round and got his nose smacked hard. So he was fighting on one weeks training and he couldnt breath through his nose. Dan Miller is quite a bit more exp than him. I feel like Salter can probably take him down and hang with him standing but I am worried Miller might catch him in a sub.
Dude, Salter straight FUCKED J-Mac up in like 60 seconds. Did you not see that shit????
Very Funny. No I did not see it but he lost via Injury.
Very Funny. No I did not see it but he lost via Injury.
Ha. Yeah. That's true.
I actually think Salter's performance against Harris was impressive despite the fact that he lost. This time, he should be properly trained and will be in a better place both cardio wise and, hopefully, mentally. He has very good wrestling and solid enough striking. Like you say, Miller may be able to catch him in a sub, but at +220 I think Salter's worth risking a small bet.
.45u to win 1u
I'm not going back through 30 pages but whats everyone thoughts on Florian-Maynard?
Mr. IWS
08-24-2010, 06:04 PM
I'm not going back through 30 pages but whats everyone thoughts on Florian-Maynard?
Really Liking Florini via UD. I think he will be able to keep the fight standing and pick Maynard apart for 3 rounds.
I'm not going back through 30 pages but whats everyone thoughts on Florian-Maynard?
Florian wins via superior striking, threatening submissions, and improved takedown defense.
edman5555
08-24-2010, 06:07 PM
My possible bets so far:
Salter, Maynard, Gabe Reudiger, Mario Miranda, Marcus Davis,
I think Maynard will outwrestle Florian and I dont think Florian will submit him off his back.
Gabe R is a BB in BJJ with a similar record compared to J LO and he is a big Udog. He might be able to out grapple J LO. As I type this I just read that Gabe R is taking this fight on 3 weeks notice. Now I am not sure.
M Miranda, everyone knows why..I wish I got him at +280 though. I think he has a very good chance of winning.
M Davis. I think he will outbox N diaz and he is no slouch on the ground himself. Can N D get take him down? I don't know. Anyone's thoughts?
Florian wins via superior striking, threatening submissions, and improved takedown defense.
Really Liking Florini via UD. I think he will be able to keep the fight standing and pick Maynard apart for 3 rounds.
Well damn...
^^^ I was leaning Maynard
edman5555
08-24-2010, 06:10 PM
I'm not going back through 30 pages but whats everyone thoughts on Florian-Maynard?
Florian wins via superior striking, threatening submissions, and improved takedown defense.
Maynard outboxed Diaz. Thats not too bad. I think Florian will have better standup but keep in mind he won't be able to use his kicks the same way. Maynard is pretty quick too..He took down F edgar many times. He won every single round and took him down every single round. Nobody has beaten him. This is a tough call.
Maynard outboxed Diaz. Thats not too bad. I think Florian will have better standup but keep in mind he won't be able to use his kicks the same way.
I was thinking the samething .
Maynard outboxed Diaz. Thats not too bad. I think Florian will have better standup but keep in mind he won't be able to use his kicks the same way. Maynard is pretty quick too..He took down F edgar many times. He won every single round and took him down every single round. Nobody has beaten him. This is a tough call.
I think this is a step up in comp for Maynard. Yes, he beat Edgar, but I think if they fought today it may very well be a different story. Besides, in that fight the size difference was obvious as Edgar was one of the smallest fighters in the division. (He still is, but has put some weight on.)
Maynard struggled with Huerta, while Florian schooled him. Maynard's striking is not nearly as sophisticated. His ONLY chance to win this is via top control UD, in my opinion. Can he do that? Sure, he CAN. But will he? I'd have to get a better price on him to take that chance because I doubt it.
I thinking the samething .
I think Nate Diaz somehow gets credit for his striking that really belongs to his brother. It's like people think they're brothers so they both strike just as well as the other. Really, Nick is a step behind his brother in all areas and always has been. Diaz is 2-3 in his last 5. There's a reason for that.
edman5555
08-24-2010, 06:54 PM
I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on maynard florian
edman5555
08-24-2010, 07:00 PM
Anyone considering a bet on Toney? 100 bucks to win 550.
Anyone considering a bet on Toney? 100 bucks to win 550.
I've considered it. If the line goes higher by fight time I'll probably drop .25u on him, but I hope Randy chokes the shit out of him. Literally. I hope after the fight Toney got choked so hard that there are little bits of Toney shit on the Octagon floor.
In case you guys forgot, Kenny Florian finishes fights.
In case you guys forgot, Kenny Florian finishes fights.
He really does.
Do you realize that in 18 fights he's only been to a decision 3 times?
I'll say one thing about J-Lo, and that's that he better bring some more skills than be brought against Stout if he wants to justify that -325 line.
He has by far the most RNCs ever in the UFC, with 7. Real talk.
Just looking over Gabe Ruediger's record, it looks like he might be the kind of guy who does very well against lower level competition, but loses any time he fights someone that people have heard of.
Just looking over Gabe Ruediger's record, it looks like he might be the kind of guy who does very well against lower level competition, but loses any time he fights someone that people have heard of.
Perhaps, but I kind of agree with him. Who the hell has Joe Lauzon ever beat? He's only beat one fighter I've ever heard of. I won't name him out of respect for SPX.
Perhaps, but I kind of agree with him. Who the hell has Joe Lauzon ever beat? He's only beat one fighter I've ever heard of. I won't name him out of respect for SPX.
Much obliged.
But I know you've also heard of Mike Brown, Jeremy Stephens, and Kyle Bradley, too. Granted, Kyle Bradley's not shit, but the other two. . .
I'm not going back through 30 pages but whats everyone thoughts on Florian-Maynard?
Florian wins via superior striking, threatening submissions, and improved takedown defense.
Maynard outboxed Diaz. Thats not too bad. I think Florian will have better standup but keep in mind he won't be able to use his kicks the same way. Maynard is pretty quick too..He took down F edgar many times. He won every single round and took him down every single round. Nobody has beaten him. This is a tough call.
http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/may ... rt_03.html (http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/maynard-vs-diaz-fightmetric-report_03.html)
Maynard didn't outbox shit.
I've considered it. If the line goes higher by fight time I'll probably drop .25u on him, but I hope Randy chokes the shit out of him. Literally. I hope after the fight Toney got choked so hard that there are little bits of Toney shit on the Octagon floor.
did Toney impregnate your mom? Why the hate ?
did Toney impregnate your mom? Why the hate ?
He's an illiterate dopey bastard who shall not tarnish my sport.
did Toney impregnate your mom? Why the hate ?
He's an illiterate dopey bastard who shall not tarnish my sport.
LOL "your sport" .How many fights you had?
Funny how Toney isnt any differnt in selling a fight than Sonnen but you were amused by him
LOL "your sport" .How many fights you had?
Funny how Toney isnt any differnt in selling a fight than Sonnen (R-Or) but you were amused by him
A few things. . .
1. Do I have to fight to have a love for the sport? MMA's given me a lot: hours of entertainment, a budding side income wagering on it, the nucleus of a new career writing about it, and even IWS. So yeah, it's my sport. I'm very much attached.
2. Sonnen and Toney are nothing alike. Sonnen's obviously very intelligent. Even Gerald Harris told me that Sonnen was one of the most intelligent people he knew, and Harris is no moron himself (he has a BA in history and used to be a teacher, as you know). Toney, on the other hand, can't even enunciate simple phrases and syllables. If he was an MMA fighter, I would be amused by him, but I certainly wouldn't be a fan. And as this match is being thought of as "boxing vs MMA," you know what side I'm going to be on.
edman5555
08-24-2010, 08:59 PM
What are you talking about Maynard didn't outbox shit? Diaz won "head jabs"
and that is only because he paws at people constantly...Maynard landed far more head power and a bit more body power...
http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/may ... rt_03.html (http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/maynard-vs-diaz-fightmetric-report_03.html)
Maynard didn't outbox shit.
You should go watch that fight ::handshake::
What are you talking about Maynard didn't outbox shit? Diaz won "head jabs"
and that is only because he paws at people constantly...Maynard landed far more head power and a bit more body power...
Diaz also didnt land a meanigful punch the whole fight. Maynard rocked Diaz on several occasions.
Just because figtmetric gave Diaz a strike everytime he pawed at Maynard doesnt mean he outboxed him
A few things. . .
1. Do I have to fight to have a love for the sport? MMA's given me a lot: hours of entertainment, a budding side income wagering on it, the nucleus of a new career writing about it, and even IWS. So yeah, it's my sport. I'm very much attached.
2. Sonnen (R-Or) and Toney are nothing alike. Sonnen (R-Or)'s obviously very intelligent. Even Gerald Harris told me that Sonnen (R-Or) was one of the most intelligent people he knew, and Harris is no moron himself (he has a BA in history and used to be a teacher, as you know). Toney, on the other hand, can't even enunciate simple phrases and syllables. If he was an MMA fighter, I would be amused by him, but I certainly wouldn't be a fan. And as this match is being thought of as "boxing vs MMA," you know what side I'm going to be on.
Sigh ......
Fans......
Just because figtmetric gave Diaz a strike everytime he pawed at Maynard doesnt mean he outboxed him
I agree. There's more to "outstriking" someone than just the numbers.
Sigh ......
Fans......
Proud to wear that label. . .
I'm sorry you don't get to have that experience.
poopoo333
08-24-2010, 09:24 PM
I'll say one thing about J-Lo, and that's that he better bring some more skills than be brought against Stout if he wants to justify that -325 line.
IIRC, Lauzon was doing fine, then he just gassed. He also was coming off an injury/long layoff.
poopoo333
08-24-2010, 09:29 PM
Just looking over Gabe Ruediger's record, it looks like he might be the kind of guy who does very well against lower level competition, but loses any time he fights someone that people have heard of.
Perhaps, but I kind of agree with him. Who the hell has Joe Lauzon ever beat? He's only beat one fighter I've ever heard of. I won't name him out of respect for SPX.
You mean when he KTFO of Jens Pulver?
You mean when he KTFO of Jens Pulver?
http://www.visitallan.biz/neowin/fail-anime.gif
poopoo333
08-24-2010, 09:42 PM
2.6u Couture/Toney under 1.5 rounds @-260
Thewiseman
08-24-2010, 11:36 PM
2.6u Couture/Toney under 1.5 rounds @-260
I was thinking of making the same bet.
MMA_scientist
08-24-2010, 11:36 PM
Ruediger doesn't suck nearly as badly as everyone thinks. His stint on TUF clouds the judgment. He is such a DB that it is hard to imagine he can actually sort of fight. I expect J-Lau to win, but I think he is one of the most overrated fighters out there. He has no dominant skills, he has decent wrestling, decent bjj, and a decent standup. I think a lot of guys with far less name recongnition would whomp his ass.
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