Official IWS Traditional Martial Arts Thread

[Luke]

..

[SPX]

That's a cool shirt.

[Ludo]

So what do you prefer in a martial art, X. A gritty no-frills looking art that gives results or an elegant looking art that still offers some practical should a situation call for it?

[SPX]

An interesting question.

And, the latter. I want something that is both effective and aesthetically pleasing. This is why something like Krav Maga doesn't really appeal to me, because it's just pure self-defense. Effective? Sure. But it's not fun to watch or do and it doesn't provide any sporting opportunities either. On the other hand, something like Chinese wushu is very pretty and there are lots of competitions, but it offers no real combat or self-defense value.

So I want something that is between those two extremes. My appreciation of taekwondo has always been because of the kicks. From a purely demonstrational perspective, it's a very attractive style. It's also fun to do. And TKD stylists can also develop a lot of kicking power and, at least in the case of ITF TKD practitioners, they can develop decent hands as well. On the other hand, karate--in my opinion, as a whole--is probably a little more practical than TKD. It's a more grounded style that leads practitioners to develop a solid base and more basic/practical power striking. I also like many karate styles' ethos of evasion and not getting hit. A lot of people have called Machida boring but, other than the Shogun and Bones' fights, it's gotta be nice to not have to go home and spend the first month after a fight recovering from an ass beating even when you win.

Personally, as far as an ideal style that I would want to learn, it would be something that uses karate as a base, but with the kicks of TKD and enough grappling to be able to handle most people on the street. If I just wanted to learn to fight and was not interested in the style beyond it's effectiveness, and did not care about the underlying history or culture, then I'd probably just go the popular route and learn MT and BJJ or Judo. But that's just not that interesting to me.

Your thoughts?

[Ludo]

I'm a effectiveness type of guy. I like the art that uses the least amount of energy to produce the most result. Krav Maga fascinates Me because it doesn't get any more "real" than that. It is the product of the true to life need for a system designed for disadvantaged combat. How to survive an encounter with an assailant who might have a knife, who might come out of nowhere, who might have a buddy waiting for you to be preoccupied and tied up with the other guy to come from behind you.

I've also always loved Muay Thai, as you may have noticed by the av I used to use with the caption reading "Muay thai fighters do it in the clinch". I like Muay Thai because it applies the principle that every part of your body is a weapon. Not just kicks and punches, but elbows and knees which give you the option to strike from several distances. Also the history of it, and the legend of Nai Khanon who was captured by the Burmese and forced to fight nine Burmese boxers consecutively with breaks. He eventually beat them all with muay thai techniques and the king of Burma was so impressed he released Nai Khanon.

These arts were developed as a means of personal defense rather than a way to be spiritually at peace, or for fitness, or for the sake of the perfect form.

[poopoo333]

This thread is fucking stupid.

[Ludo]

This thread is fucking stupid.

[SPX]

I'm a effectiveness type of guy. I like the art that uses the least amount of energy to produce the most result. Krav Maga fascinates Me because it doesn't get any more "real" than that. It is the product of the true to life need for a system designed for disadvantaged combat. How to survive an encounter with an assailant who might have a knife, who might come out of nowhere, who might have a buddy waiting for you to be preoccupied and tied up with the other guy to come from behind you.

You see, I think that is cool, too. But I think it would be cool more as a set of principles--or perhaps as the occasional reality-based self-defense workshop--that is tacked onto an existing art, not as a system unto itself. If you watch the wing chun Fight Quest episode (speaking of that, you watched any of those yet?) then they'll do shit where like 7 guys corner a dude in an alley and swarm him to give him the experience of being attacked by multiple guys in a small space. That's cool. So I think exercises like that are valuable, but it's not what I would want to train everyday.

One thing I have come to realize is that most people go their whole lives without a real, serious self-defense encounter. So if your focus is on self-defense ALL the time, then it's the equivalent of a boxer training for a fight that's never going to happen. Now if someone just likes the training, then fine. But personally, if I'm going to devote myself to a style, then it would need to be something that has some other outlet for actually using the skills that I'm spending so much time developing, i.e. some sport component.

I've also always loved Muay Thai, as you may have noticed by the av I used to use with the caption reading "Muay thai fighters do it in the clinch". I like Muay Thai because it applies the principle that every part of your body is a weapon. Not just kicks and punches, but elbows and knees which give you the option to strike from several distances. Also the history of it, and the legend of Nai Khanon who was captured by the Burmese and forced to fight nine Burmese boxers consecutively with breaks. He eventually beat them all with muay thai techniques and the king of Burma was so impressed he released Nai Khanon.

I've got nothing against muay Thai but I don't especially like it either. For one, the Thai history--which seems to appeal to you so much--is not particularly interesting to me. I mean, it is of moderate interest. But I've always been far more interested in China, Japan and Korea than I have any of the Southeast Asian countries.

For another, a lot of MTers are fucking pricks who think that MT is the end-all-be-all of striking arts and that if you don't do muay Thai then you're doing something inferior. They also like to attack their own, such as in this thread, where they crack on a girl who apparently has an undefeated MMA record (I bet the TS didn't realize that when he posted it):

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/pr...-thai-1964517/

Another pet peeve is that, since muay Thai uses elbows and knees in their competition rules, there's become this widespread notion that other styles don't use them. Karate has elbows and knees, and we've seen both from Machida. I remember doing elbows and knees in TKD forms back when I was like 11. So they're there. If a practitioner chooses not to train them or focus on them because they're not a part of their art's sport component, well that's on them.

These arts were developed as a means of personal defense rather than a way to be spiritually at peace, or for fitness, or for the sake of the perfect form.

Most arts were, though. Also, if you do some research, I bet you'll find that MT a couple of hundred years ago only somewhat resembled the MT of today's modern ring sport. If you watch one of the Tony Jaa movies--can't remember which one--he does what looks like a kata with really low stances. That's old school, but that's the way it was done until recently.

But to look at other styles, take Wado-ryu karate, for instance. Wado-ryu is actually a fusion of Shotokan, jujutsu and principles borrowed from Kendo, or so I was told the other day from the guy who was training me. There are a lot of very practical principles involved, like having more upright, natural stances than many other styles (this comes from Kendo), having the least wasted motion in the blocks and strikes (the typical fighting stance is such that you should have the straightest line possible between your fist and your target), and an emphasis on striking to vital areas, like the eyes, throat and groin (this comes from jujutsu).

However, while in my opinion many traditional styles (if taught and trained appropriately) are perfectly capable of be used both defensively and offensively, they also provide other benefits as well.

[SPX]

This thread is fucking stupid.

Yeah, reminds me of all those videos you post where you do nothing but lift heavy shit.

[Mr. IWS]

Yeah, reminds me of all those videos you post where you do nothing but lift heavy shit.

Bulz

[Ludo]

You see, I think that is cool, too. But I think it would be cool more as a set of principles--or perhaps as the occasional reality-based self-defense workshop--that is tacked onto an existing art, not as a system unto itself. If you watch the wing chun Fight Quest episode (speaking of that, you watched any of those yet?) then they'll do shit where like 7 guys corner a dude in an alley and swarm him to give him the experience of being attacked by multiple guys in a small space. That's cool. So I think exercises like that are valuable, but it's not what I would want to train everyday.

I didn't watch all the fight quest episodes yet. I like the Human Weapon series better but I'm watching them slowly. I agree that an exercise quite like that wouldn't be an everyday thing, but it stems from a time where that was a very real possibility in the day to day. Even today in the wrong area that can happen.

One thing I have come to realize is that most people go their whole lives without a real, serious self-defense encounter. So if your focus is on self-defense ALL the time, then it's the equivalent of a boxer training for a fight that's never going to happen. Now if someone just likes the training, then fine. But personally, if I'm going to devote myself to a style, then it would need to be something that has some other outlet for actually using the skills that I'm spending so much time developing, i.e. some sport component.

I agree that most people never encounter a situation that calls for self defense in their entire lives but then again thats not who Krav Maga is for. Krav Maga was designed by and for a people who faced the threat of an attempt on their lives at any time on any day. It's also become somewhat of a military facet much like brazilian jiu jitsu has for the american forces. There is definitely something to be said for the cultural difference between the region where kung fu was created as opposed to where say savate was created, or bartitsu. You don't see quite the emphasis on beauty as you would see from an eastern culture in the systems designed for use in european back alleys.

I've got nothing against muay Thai but I don't especially like it either. For one, the Thai history--which seems to appeal to you so much--is not particularly interesting to me. I mean, it is of moderate interest. But I've always been far more interested in China, Japan and Korea than I have any of the Southeast Asian countries.

One thing that sort of deterred Me from the arts based out of the above countries are the sheer number of them. You have literally hundreds of different styles and forms like dialects changing from village to village and city to city. Many of the styles in China were classified still as kung fu but can be as far apart from one another in actual content that it sort of turned Me off to them. I will say that if any particular system that was wholly central asian based appealed to Me it would be Jeet Kun Do because of the legend associated with it, the legacy behind it going back even further than Bruce to Yip Kai-Man.

For another, a lot of MTers are fucking pricks who think that MT is the end-all-be-all of striking arts and that if you don't do muay Thai then you're doing something inferior. They also like to attack their own, such as in this thread, where they crack on a girl who apparently has an undefeated MMA record (I bet the TS didn't realize that when he posted it):

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/pr...-thai-1964517/

I don't really have an opinion on the typical attitude of the people who claim muay thai as their primary martial art, I'm more interested in the art itself than the people in it today if that makes sense.

Another pet peeve is that, since muay Thai uses elbows and knees in their competition rules, there's become this widespread notion that other styles don't use them. Karate has elbows and knees, and we've seen both from Machida. I remember doing elbows and knees in TKD forms back when I was like 11. So they're there. If a practitioner chooses not to train them or focus on them because they're not a part of their art's sport component, well that's on them.

I didn't mean to imply that other martial arts didn't incorporate elbows and knees, what I meant was that those attacks play a much larger role in muay thai than they do in say shotokan. I have noticed that while it is seen and portrayed as a more aggressive art that it is passive in it's own way. Where many martial arts put an emphasis on controlling distance muay thai is flexible in the fact that distance become less important than being prepared to use it effectively regardless of what it might be.

Also, if you do some research, I bet you'll find that MT a couple of hundred years ago only somewhat resembled the MT of today's modern ring sport. If you watch one of the Tony Jaa movies--can't remember which one--he does what looks like a kata with really low stances. That's old school, but that's the way it was done until recently.

Yeah it has been civilized quite a bit. Back in the day, even as recently as sixty years ago it wasn't uncommon for there to be several deaths in the ring for muay thai contests. They fought without gloves(either bare handed or with hands wrapped in cord), without rounds, and without referee's I think(I may be wrong on this last one) until one guy had clearly lost.

[SPX]

I didn't watch all the fight quest episodes yet. I like the Human Weapon series better but I'm watching them slowly.

I'd definitely say to keep watching, because I think Fight Quest really is a superior show. It should grow on you. Doug is a way cooler host than either of those guys on HW.

I agree that an exercise quite like that wouldn't be an everyday thing, but it stems from a time where that was a very real possibility in the day to day. Even today in the wrong area that can happen.

It can definitely happen and self-defense is still one of the big reasons that I'm into martial arts. Though in this modern era, I think that anyone who is REALLY interested in defending their life will carry a firearm.

There is definitely something to be said for the cultural difference between the region where kung fu was created as opposed to where say savate was created, or bartitsu. You don't see quite the emphasis on beauty as you would see from an eastern culture in the systems designed for use in european back alleys.

That's true, though I think Savate is cool, too. And to be honest, I don't regard many kung fu styles as being truly practical for self-defense. I think kung fu is cool, and it's interesting to watch, and I'm sure it's interesting to practice, but by and large I think it's a bit of a stretch. With that said, though, who knows, maybe there are some rare people who really understand their art who can use Eagle Claw or Snake Style on the street. I dunno.

If someone told me that they wanted a traditional style that is still useful today for practical defense, I would almost certainly point them to something from either Japan or Korea.

When I get older I do think I might want to study one of the Chinese internal styles though, like tai chi, pa kua, or hsing-i.

One thing that sort of deterred Me from the arts based out of the above countries are the sheer number of them. You have literally hundreds of different styles and forms like dialects changing from village to village and city to city. Many of the styles in China were classified still as kung fu but can be as far apart from one another in actual content that it sort of turned Me off to them.

Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't use it as a reason to deter you, though. Even though there are many styles, there are only a handful that are really popular. And if you actually wanted to formally study something, you would be even further hindered by what's available in your area.

Once you get out of China the situation is a lot more manageable. From Korea, there's basically just TKD and hapkido to choose from, with a few different versions of each. From Japan, there's karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, ninjutsu and some weapon arts. Karate, of course, breaks down into a multitude of styles, but most are fairly similar, unlike the situation with kung fu.

I will say that if any particular system that was wholly central asian based appealed to Me it would be Jeet Kun Do because of the legend associated with it, the legacy behind it going back even further than Bruce to Yip Kai-Man.

Yip Man's only connection to JKD is through Bruce, who studied wing chun with Yip Man, as I'm assuming you know. Bruce actually initially created Jun Fan Gung Fu before JKD.

I think that JKD is interesting, but it's less a style, than it is a collection of principles and concepts. Because of this, it can vary quite a bit from one teacher to the next.

I don't really have an opinion on the typical attitude of the people who claim muay thai as their primary martial art, I'm more interested in the art itself than the people in it today if that makes sense.

The thing about a martial art is that if it's something you're going to actually train in, then you have to adopt the community that comes along with it. Plenty of MTers are perfectly cool people. In fact, I'm sure most are. But a lot of them are dickheads and their attitude of "if you're not Muay Thai, you're not shit" is well known.

I didn't mean to imply that other martial arts didn't incorporate elbows and knees, what I meant was that those attacks play a much larger role in muay thai than they do in say shotokan.

That's true. Though of course each individual practitioner is free to place their own preferred emphasis on techniques in training, and a lot of traditional schools are also starting to train elbows, knees and leg kicks a lot more than they used to. It's the MMA age, after all.

I have noticed that while it is seen and portrayed as a more aggressive art that it is passive in it's own way. Where many martial arts put an emphasis on controlling distance muay thai is flexible in the fact that distance become less important than being prepared to use it effectively regardless of what it might be.

An interesting observation. I've never thought about that.

Yeah it has been civilized quite a bit. Back in the day, even as recently as sixty years ago it wasn't uncommon for there to be several deaths in the ring for muay thai contests. They fought without gloves(either bare handed or with hands wrapped in cord), without rounds, and without referee's I think(I may be wrong on this last one) until one guy had clearly lost.

I actually wrote an article on muay Thai for UMMA not too long ago and got to talk to Mark Dellagrotte. It was an interesting experience. For the article I had to do a bit of research on the history of muay Thai and, if I am remembering correctly, muay Thai actually came from a variety of different Southeast Asian styles that were collectively known as muay boran. My understanding was that muay boran was basically the same as saying "kung fu" . . . it was just an umbrella term. Over time these styles came together and eventually formed the basis for the modern system of muay Thai.

[Mr. IWS]

^^^^^I didnt read that post, but I am impressed with the amount of quotes and the format with which you replied.

Kudos my man.

[SPX]

^^^^^I didnt read that post, but I am impressed with the amount of quotes and the format with which you replied.

Kudos my man.

BOL

[Ludo]

I'd definitely say to keep watching, because I think Fight Quest really is a superior show. It should grow on you. Doug is a way cooler host than either of those guys on HW.

I had to quit watching the Kung Fu Monk episode because the shit was just too much. There was way too much emphasis on cardio than actual techniques which seemed to not quite do justice to the art itself.

It can definitely happen and self-defense is still one of the big reasons that I'm into martial arts. Though in this modern era, I think that anyone who is REALLY interested in defending their life will carry a firearm.

Yeah but there are people who are literally afraid to end up having killed someone. They don't want to have to end up taking someone's life even in a situation where their own might be at risk. I have to think at least some of those people are drawn to martial arts for the sake that it's, on the whole, much less lethal than a firearm but may still see you through being attacked by someone.

That's true, though I think Savate is cool, too. And to be honest, I don't regard many kung fu styles as being truly practical for self-defense. I think kung fu is cool, and it's interesting to watch, and I'm sure it's interesting to practice, but by and large I think it's a bit of a stretch. With that said, though, who knows, maybe there are some rare people who really understand their art who can use Eagle Claw or Snake Style on the street. I dunno.

I like the principles of savate in that it's something you could have done under dim torchlight in the streets of London circa 1890 in a fucking dress suit and top hat. It was created for the every-man to perhaps persuade a thief to target someone else next time, or to make it home safely from work/the pub. But the real intrigue of savate, at least for Me, is what it helped lay the ground for in european kickboxing along with traditional asian martial arts. It just goes to show that you didn't have to be asian to develop a style of fighting that made ample use of kicks.

When I get older I do think I might want to study one of the Chinese internal styles though, like tai chi, pa kua, or hsing-i.

I can see the appeal of this kind of thing, but I don't think it'd ever be for Me.

Once you get out of China the situation is a lot more manageable. From Korea, there's basically just TKD and hapkido to choose from, with a few different versions of each. From Japan, there's karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, ninjutsu and some weapon arts. Karate, of course, breaks down into a multitude of styles, but most are fairly similar, unlike the situation with kung fu.

Does Aikido even work outside of a dojo setting? I don't think I've ever heard about/seen/read about aikido being used to any kind of effect beyond a randori demonstration and even then it looks alot like coreography. I'm sure it's good for weapon disarms but I just don't see how something so utterly passive can be used in a situation where you don't have the luxury of having exact movements true to trained form being attempted on you for the purpose of demonstration.

Yip Man's only connection to JKD is through Bruce, who studied wing chun with Yip Man, as I'm assuming you know. Bruce actually initially created Jun Fan Gung Fu before JKD. I think that JKD is interesting, but it's less a style, than it is a collection of principles and concepts. Because of this, it can vary quite a bit from one teacher to the next.

I know Yip wasn't directly involved in Jeet Kun Do, but he seemed to be a pioneer in the concept. I don't think you can call what Yip was doing purely wing chun, at least from the legend that had surrounded him. It seems like he took what he learned and did a sort of fusion to incorporate more than what he had been trained with to an extent. I have to believe alot of Bruce's concepts were derivative of Yip's education.

That whole thing about emotional content, form without form, etc etc etc. Not to mention the fusion between striking and grappling along with being constantly aware of what opportunities are available to you and what openings have been left. Bruce was a brilliant man, but he isn't the first to come up with some of those core beliefs for a combat system.

The thing about a martial art is that if it's something you're going to actually train in, then you have to adopt the community that comes along with it. Plenty of MTers are perfectly cool people. In fact, I'm sure most are. But a lot of them are dickheads and their attitude of "if you're not Muay Thai, you're not shit" is well known.

I think this attitude may be a bit of backlash for how muay thai has been portrayed by the media in the past. Broken glass dipped wraps, being un-hurtable beastly motherfuckers, ones who practice by shin kicking load bearing beams and shit, being called Sagat since 1987. I'm sure all of that has jaded a few guys, but it's probably a pride thing mixed with the kind of person who chooses to act a fool in the first place, you know? Kind of like how Junie Browning and War Machine give MMA fighters a bad name almost every day.

That's true. Though of course each individual practitioner is free to place their own preferred emphasis on techniques in training, and a lot of traditional schools are also starting to train elbows, knees and leg kicks a lot more than they used to. It's the MMA age, after all.

I have to believe not as many martial art instructors give a rats ass about MMA. I know there was plenty of distaste for the sport when it initially went big for alot of TMA practitioners because it was seen as an impure contest. Especially since most traditional arts weren't designed to deal with takedowns and the clinch as it's used in MMA.

I actually wrote an article on muay Thai for UMMA not too long ago and got to talk to Mark Dellagrotte. It was an interesting experience. For the article I had to do a bit of research on the history of muay Thai and, if I am remembering correctly, muay Thai actually came from a variety of different Southeast Asian styles that were collectively known as muay boran. My understanding was that muay boran was basically the same as saying "kung fu" . . . it was just an umbrella term. Over time these styles came together and eventually formed the basis for the modern system of muay Thai.

Muay Boran is the direct predecessor of Muay Thai, and while it is a bit of an umbrella term it has a distinct trademark difference in that headbutts were permitted in muay boran, which was called the ninth weapon or nawa awut. Unfortunately the origins are unknown because the Burmese destroyed all the records of the ancient kingdom in which muay boran came about.