2013 Off Topic Thread

[MMA_scientist]

Is this like when Rashad got his black belt? Bendo's grappling sucks.

not sure if srs

[SPX]

Not srs.

[MMA_scientist]

ah. Well, he competes in the Gi a lot. He got 3rd in the Worlds last year at brown, and I think he got silver at Pans. he even does local tourneys occasionally, so it is nothing like Rashad's BB (FWIW though, I don't see any problem with Rashad's BB).

[SPX]

I'm sure Rashad is legit, but it's kind of concerning that he has never shown any semblance of submission skills in his entire career.

[MMA_scientist]

No, but he has show some pretty solid submission defense and positional dominance. BJJ is not all submissions. He prefers to try to finish with strikes but he hasn't even been close to getting subbed. The only thing that is up for debate is whether his skills are really "BJJ". He definitely has BB level skills on top though. Who knows what he would look like if he couldn't get on top or get up. To me, a BJJ bb is not just someone who can beat BJJ bb's in grappling. He has to actually know BJJ, that is fighting from all positions and survival against a bigger stronger man.

[SPX]

Yeah, I don't know that I've seen anything from him that couldn't be credited to his wrestling background.

[MMA_scientist]

Yeah, I don't know that I've seen anything from him that couldn't be credited to his wrestling background.

a lot of people say that about a lot of fighters... but it isn't exactly true. Pretty much all ground work you see in MMA is BJJ/Judo. Wrestlers can adapt to it really fast but there is never ever a time in a wrestling match where you would be sitting up with enough space to punch. That is why it always irritates me when people talk about wrestling vs bjj... what you are seeing is pretty much entirely BJJ ground work.

People talk a lot about the useless positions in sport jj, but it is way worse in wrestling. What they get from wrestling is timing and balance (and takedowns of course), but the actual moves they do in the cage, those aren't ever used in a wrestling match (well, you will see occasionally a pure wrestling move like a spiral ride to prevent someone from standing up).

[Ludo]

I think alot of guys nowadays might not be technically jiu jitsu guys, but more of the Matt Hughes hybrid types anymore, at least the wrestling based guys. I don't necessarily think Rashad does a whole lot of training from the bottom positions because his offensive wrestling is just so effective and his scrambling ability is up there as well. I think alot of it is just positional mastery and a sort of submission defense just by not leaving anything out there to grab on to.

[MMA_scientist]

Yeah, MMA is really its own grappling system these days. When I say "BJJ" I was really referring to any submission grappling which really does look entirely different than wrestling.

But in modern MMA with the scoring for top position, guard really is a last resort unless you are just a guard wizard. So guys like Hughes and Rashad are really more hybrid MMA grapplers. But Hughes started pulling guard at the end of his career.

Also "not leaving something out there" is a lot more difficult than it looks, it is a whole technical area in and of itself. It all works together, if you try to tuck in tight, when someone makes a sweep attempt, you have to post out. You have to understand a lot of grappling to just avoid submissions.

[Ludo]

Yeah, MMA is really its own grappling system these days. When I say "BJJ" I was really referring to any submission grappling which really does look entirely different than wrestling.

But in modern MMA with the scoring for top position, guard really is a last resort unless you are just a guard wizard. So guys like Hughes and Rashad are really more hybrid MMA grapplers. But Hughes started pulling guard at the end of his career.

Yeah, though Hughes was always more submission oriented where Rashad would rather work positions and pound on his opponents and never really look for the submission even if it's right there.

I do think MMA is totally different than just wrestling, just judo, just jiu jitsu, or even a combination of any or all of those at the same time. There's just the added element of being punched/elbowed in the face that complicates everything. Not to mention you have to more or less be a total work horse to win a round from bottom position.

[MMA_scientist]

I do think MMA is totally different than just wrestling, just judo, just jiu jitsu, or even a combination of any or all of those at the same time. There's just the added element of being punched/elbowed in the face that complicates everything. Not to mention you have to more or less be a total work horse to win a round from bottom position.

It has its own rules and scoring and that has an effect on how participants grapple. Strikes obviously change things, but the absence of other techniques (up kicks, knees to a down opponent) definitely reduce the incentive to be in certain positions. 5 minute rounds. Scoring. It all matters.

I really think the training and focus of wrestling is the key. Wrestlers are thrown to the wolves from day 1. There are no white belt divisions. In practice, guys don't take it easy on beginners, they just beat the shit out them. It is competition focused. The attrition rate is absurd, but the survivors usually make a pretty strong competition team. BJJ is more focused on inclusion and teaching, it is not solely focused on competition. And that is pretty much the entire difference IMO.

[Ludo]

It has its own rules and scoring and that has an effect on how participants grapple. Strikes obviously change things, but the absence of other techniques (up kicks, knees to a down opponent) definitely reduce the incentive to be in certain positions. 5 minute rounds. Scoring. It all matters.

I really think the training and focus of wrestling is the key. Wrestlers are thrown to the wolves from day 1. There are no white belt divisions. In practice, guys don't take it easy on beginners, they just beat the shit out them. It is competition focused. The attrition rate is absurd, but the survivors usually make a pretty strong competition team. BJJ is more focused on inclusion and teaching, it is not solely focused on competition. And that is pretty much the entire difference IMO.

Yeah, Wrestling definitely has the mental toughness aspect drilled into these guys from jump street. I think that's honestly why some straight up jiu jitsu guys find difficulty in MMA, the concept of time management is foreign to someone who would normally train for and compete in competitions with open time limits, or at least rounds that allow more than 5 minutes to work. That and they are often a little too complacent to be on the bottom. As I understand it jiu jitsu at it's core is a game of patience and calculated movements, which doesn't necessarily translate well to a timed format. Waiting for the opponent to make a mistake positionally and then taking advantage of that, which can take more than five minutes depending on the skill level of the two competitors both overall and in relation to one another.

[SPX]

Okay, I mean seriously. . . Is this real life? I mean, really . . . is it in fact real life?

"Russia wants Steven Seagal to be face of weapons industry"

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-wants-seagal-face-weapons-135649908.html

[MMA_scientist]

Well, JJ matches are only 10 minutes at BB. I actually think the high level competition guys have as much or more success in MMA than their wrestling counterparts. It is just that there aren't as many of them. There are tons of super awesome wrestlers that never made it in MMA. MMA is a whole different thing. Many of the guys that we consider "wrestlers" in MMA weren't that great in pure wrestling. Rashad is a great example, he was an average (at best) wrestler in college. Hughes was better, but not even close to world class. It is just a different skill set in MMA. It is the same way in BJJ, some of the world class guys aren't great fighters, and there are a lot of guys that were decent but nothing special and they are great fighters.

[poopoo333]