Australia Impact promotion

[SPX]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Scientist:

You are no doubt right about Ken etc. not being "good fighters" on the global scale. But to be fair, we can only really compare them to other guys within their generation in what I guess we could call the "American" MMA scene. Also, I think our definitions of "good fighters" differs. Just like I don't like calling guys "cans" or "bums" unless they REALLY suck, I recognize that even the lowest level UFC fighters, both past and present, would beat the shit out of 95% of the people walking the earth. So I try to give respect to that. I mean, would YOU want to fuck with a mid-90s Shamrock, or Severn, or even Kimo for that matter? I would not.

When I think of the first handful of UFCs, this is what comes to mind. . .

Great Fighters

Royce
Ken
Guy Mezger
Severn
Taktarov


Good Fighters

Keith Hackney
Pat Smith
Gerard Gordeau (<-- guy has a ton of accolades)
Kimo
Steve Jennum

Guys like Frye and Marco Ruas would show up soon after. Then a little bit after that we'd get what I'd call the first wave of the "modern" MMA fighters in guys like Couture, Silva, Tito, and Belfort.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Awesome post by Justin Wren about and unknown Vale Tudo legend in the 60's with pics: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/blond ... d-1278197/

Dude, that shit's long, but I started it and will finish it by the end of the day. . .

Next article in Ultimate MMA: "The Origins of Modern MMA." You can basically rehash our discussion here. I actually learned a lot trying to back up my position. Reading the Pancrase Wiki, I learned what shoot-wrestling is (pro wrestlers have shoots and works- shoots are spontaneous and unscripted moves, works are planned and choreographed). Pancrase was a event based on only shoots. Then on the other side of the world, Maeda brought judo to Brazil... challenge matches, Luta Livre, Vale Tudo, MMA. It really developed independently in Brazil and Japan, but pro wrestling was involved both places... its pretty interesting I think.

There are so many branches from that. You could talk about Maeda, Gotch, pro wrestling, judo, Helio... it could be series.

Make it happen.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Scientist:

You are no doubt right about Ken etc. not being "good fighters" on the global scale. But to be fair, we can only really compare them to other guys within their generation in what I guess we could call the "American" MMA scene..

I prefer to call them pioneers. They were the first so they credit. They just happened to be fighting in a very small pond. They have a place in history, and Ken was one of the better guys in the early UFC's I will definitely give that point up. I think Ken was the #2 guy until the guys that watched UFC 1-4 and realized they could beat these guys showed up.

[Luke]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

.



Like you, I didn't know any of this at the time, so I though Royce was teh baddest man on the planet and Ken was the 2nd baddest man. Now that I know better, I see Ken for what he was: One onf the guys who happened to be invited to UFC 1, and a figure who helped popularize MMA. But he is not now, nor was he ever, a great or (even very good IMO) fighter.

+1

[SPX]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Next article in Ultimate MMA: "The Origins of Modern MMA." You can basically rehash our discussion here. I actually learned a lot trying to back up my position. Reading the Pancrase Wiki, I learned what shoot-wrestling is (pro wrestlers have shoots and works- shoots are spontaneous and unscripted moves, works are planned and choreographed). Pancrase was a event based on only shoots. Then on the other side of the world, Maeda brought judo to Brazil... challenge matches, Luta Livre, Vale Tudo, MMA. It really developed independently in Brazil and Japan, but pro wrestling was involved both places... its pretty interesting I think.

There are so many branches from that. You could talk about Maeda, Gotch, pro wrestling, judo, Helio... it could be series.

Make it happen.

I actually wouldn't mind doing that. The biggest problem would be the word count limitation. I could make it 2-part/2400 word piece maximum.

But in all seriousness, since you bring it up, it may be an idea that I consider pursuing.

[Svino]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

. So the fact that Ken happened to be invited had nothing to do with his skill except that they knew Royce would beat him. Same thing with Kimo, Severn, Pat Smith and anyone else in the very first class of UFC fighters.

I think that with a few exceptions, Davie and Rorion were genuinely trying to get the best fighters (in a mix of styles) for the tournament that they could. They were extremely confident that Royce could beat any classically-trained striker. Gordeau and Orlando Weit had good credentials in Savate and Muay Thai. Pat Smith had won the only major Kyokushin karate tournament in the US and had a good record as a kickboxer. Ken Shamrock was probably the most promising fighter (3-0) in the only other MMA-like organization in the world at the time. He wasn't just some noob brought in for Royce to beat, he was a good get.

They tried very hard to get a good boxer, but couldn't for much the same reason MMA still doesn't get them; they have their own pro sport that pays them too much money for them to go elsewhere. The major exception was with wrestlers. Rickson Gracie had recently had a grappling match with Mark Schultz that lasted 30 minutes. Rickson won, but reading between the lines, it seems he would have lost if they were striking. It was apparently enough for Rorion to decide big wrestlers were too tough to risk, which is why you didn't see them represented at all until UFC 4. Supposedly he also axed the idea to go after Karelin, and also discouraged them from letting in Taktarov (after UFC 3 I think).

But to say this somehow made them the best fighters, that's just wrong. They were the guys that got invited for whatever reason to help showcase GJJ.

I think that the successes of Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Randy Couture showed us that the elite HW college wrestlers of the day could mostly have come in and beat the crap out of the UFC 1-8 champs if they had felt like it. Maybe some of your large judo or jiu-jitsu guys could have as well. Outside of that class though, I'm not so sure.

I think Ken was the #2 guy until the guys that watched UFC 1-4 and realized they could beat these guys showed up.

I do agree with this though. I think that's fair.

Vale Tudo had been going on in Brazil in pretty much its current form in Brazil since the 60's. There were tons of guys that fought vale tudo in Brazil, including americans, that knew what fighting was about. They knew the ground and the striking. There were a ton of guys that would have whipped Royce's and Ken's asses easily.

Tons? Really? I don't think the level of competition in Vale-Tudo events was much above the early UFC events, if at all. A lot of the big names did come over to modern MMA, and their performance doesn't make me think they would have much on even a guy like Ken. Marco Ruas? - lost to Taktarov. Fabio Gurgel? - lost to Bohlander. Hugo Duarte? - lost to Tank. Amaury Bitetti? - Lost to Frye. Eugenio Tadeau, Wallid Ismail, Mestre Hulk - none of these guys were able do do much in post Vale-Tudo MMA. In 30 years, Vale-Tudo matches didn't manage to create the same appreciation for cross-training that the UFC did in maybe a dozen events, another sign that the competition wasn't that great.

That was an interesting post on Pereira. I had heard the name, but hadn't seen a 380-0 record given to him before. I'm always a little skeptical about records like that, but he still does sound like a badass.

I think you guys would really like Clyde Gentry's book, "No Holds Barred". It's basically a behind-the-scenes look at the early history of the UFC and MMA in general.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

I think that with a few exceptions, Davie and Rorion were genuinely trying to get the best fighters (in a mix of styles) for the tournament that they could. They were extremely confident that Royce could beat any classically-trained striker. Gordeau and Orlando Weit had good credentials in Savate and Muay Thai. Pat Smith had won the only major Kyokushin karate tournament in the US and had a good record as a kickboxer. Ken Shamrock was probably the most promising fighter (3-0) in the only other MMA-like organization in the world at the time. He wasn't just some noob brought in for Royce to beat, he was a good get.

I think they were trying to get the best fighters that they knew they would beat. Like you said, they knew they could beat any striker. But they did not let any strikers that even had an awareness of the ground in.

I think that the successes of Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Randy Couture showed us that the elite HW college wrestlers of the day could mostly have come in and beat the crap out of the UFC 1-8 champs if they had felt like it. Maybe some of your large judo or jiu-jitsu guys could have as well. Outside of that class though, I'm not so sure.

Yeah, but these guys all got the benefit of knowing that they needed to at least defend submissions. I think in UFC 1, Royce would have choked any and all of them unconscious. After they had the benefit of watching the style vs style matchups, they could cross train enough bjj to fend off submissions.

Tons? Really? I don't think the level of competition in Vale-Tudo events was much above the early UFC events, if at all. A lot of the big names did come over to modern MMA, and their performance doesn't make me think they would have much on even a guy like Ken. Marco Ruas? - lost to Taktarov. Fabio Gurgel? - lost to Bohlander. Hugo Duarte? - lost to Tank. Amaury Bitetti? - Lost to Frye. Eugenio Tadeau, Wallid Ismail, Mestre Hulk - none of these guys were able do do much in post Vale-Tudo MMA. In 30 years, Vale-Tudo matches didn't manage to create the same appreciation for cross-training that the UFC did in maybe a dozen events, another sign that the competition wasn't that great.

I think the difference between the Vale-Tudo guys and the very early UFC guys is that they at least were aware of jiu jitsu and the idea to sprawl and brawl had at least occured to them. Even Severn who was 260# wrestler did not think, "hey, why don't I just force Royce to trade punches with me? I do outweight him by almost 100 pounds..." Ken may have been in the same league with some of the Vale-Tudo guys to come up... but then again, Royce choked him out in less than a minute. No way Royce would have been able to handle Wallid. Maybe after Ken figured out that he should just try to stall he was slightly more dangerous, but he could nto "roll" with the bjj guys. If he moved too much, he would get subbed. He knew that and it was apparent in his 2nd fight with Royce. The Vale-Tudo guys like Ruas and Wallid had the advantage of being able to strike somewhat and being able to go move for move with a guy like Royce. The guys you mention that beat Ruas and Wallid are from the next generation of UFC guys.

[Svino]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

I think they were trying to get the best fighters that they knew they would beat. Like you said, they knew they could beat any striker. But they did not let any strikers that even had an awareness of the ground in.

Fair enough, but how quickly we forget that Harold Howard was also a "jiu-jitsu person". Seriously though, was there anyone around at the time who fit that criteria? A good striker who also had a good ground game? As opposed to strikers with just a bit of grappling that came with their ninja training, or wrestlers who tried to box a bit?

Yeah, but these guys all got the benefit of knowing that they needed to at least defend submissions. I think in UFC 1, Royce would have choked any and all of them unconscious. After they had the benefit of watching the style vs style matchups, they could cross train enough bjj to fend off submissions.

I don't know, they could have gotten caught, but I think the raw size and power difference might have been too much. I think Coleman could have finished Royce in those 14 minutes or whatever that Severn had. Or as you say, they might have tried to stand and box. I wonder how much those guys actually did train submission defense before they came in.

I think the difference between the Vale-Tudo guys and the very early UFC guys is that they at least were aware of jiu jitsu and the idea to sprawl and brawl had at least occured to them. Even Severn who was 260# wrestler did not think, "hey, why don't I just force Royce to trade punches with me?

Yeah, that did seem like a basic flaw in his planning. But his training partner Don Frye definitely had a sprawl-and-brawl like style. So did Tank Abbott, actually. Frye's boxing and Tank's wrestling weren't quite good enough for them to be viable 2nd-gen fighters, but the thought was there.

Ken may have been in the same league with some of the Vale-Tudo guys to come up... but then again, Royce choked him out in less than a minute. No way Royce would have been able to handle Wallid... Vale-Tudo guys like Ruas and Wallid had the advantage of being able to strike somewhat and being able to go move for move with a guy like Royce. The guys you mention that beat Ruas and Wallid are from the next generation of UFC guys.

I don't think much of Ruas, he was only ever able to beat the next-to-lowest rung of the early UFC. He lost to Taktarov, who was a decent fighter, but well within what I would call the 1st generation. (Taktarov drew Shamrock, lost twice to Severn, and barely beat Tank.) Ruas's later losses were both to guys that lost to Shamrock. I'm not sure at all that Ruas would have beaten Ken, Kimo, Tank, or Royce (who looked much better against Remco than Ruas did).

Wallid may have been a little better than I was giving him credit for, but still: his only UFC match was a loss to a guy that didn't even seem to be able to hold his own in Pancrase (multiple losses to Ken, Funaki, Vernon White, Jason Delucia).

I wish I could see more footage of the old Vale-Tudo matches. I don't know what precisely the weaknesses of most of those fighters were, but I'm convinced secondhand that the fighter market in mid 90's Brazil couldn't have been that good.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

I agree that it progressed quickly once it got on more television.


But Rickson fought Zulu in a televised NHB fight in 1980 when Rickson was 21. I mean this is televised "MMA" 13 years before UFC 1, strarring 2 guys that would beat Royce Gracie.

There were a lot of guys in Brazil that were bjj stylists or Judo guys, that could at least throw a punch. Then you had Russian guys like Oleg. I think Oleg would have given Royce a lot of trouble and maybe beaten him.

Royce was essentially just a grappler. I don't think he ever landed a meaningful strike standing in the early UFCs. I think Ruas would have beaten Royce.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Wallid was fighting in 1991 as well. Wallid put Royce to sleep in a grappling match. Out cold. It was in 1998, but Wallid was fighting before Royce.

You had the guys from Gokor's group. Even Benny the Jet was supposed to figyt Royce... alledgedly the Gracie's backed out of the fight after they found out he was trained by Gokor.

I don't know, there were guys around. Maybe not tons, but there were better guys.

[SPX]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

You had the guys from Gokor's group. Even Benny the Jet was supposed to figyt Royce... alledgedly the Gracie's backed out of the fight after they found out he was trained by Gokor.

BENNY THE JET!!!!

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Supposedly Benny the Jet could also grapple.

I have rolled with Gokor back in like 2001. I actually have a picture of my college "mma" club with Gokor, Karo, and Manvil. It was before Karo and Manny were in the UFC, and Manny looks like he is about 14.

Anyway, supposedly, Gracie's ducked Benny and Gokor.

If I was not a bjj gayist, I would have to admit Gokor > or = to Rickson.

[SPX]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Supposedly Benny the Jet could also grapple.

According to Wiki, "Urquidez has obtained black belts in nine styles: judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate."

And here's a picture of him with Gene LeBelle.

So I presume he had/has some pretty well-rounded skills.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Supposedly Benny the Jet could also grapple.

According to Wiki, "Urquidez has obtained black belts in nine styles: judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate."

And here's a picture of him with Gene LeBelle.

So I presume he had/has some pretty well-rounded skills.

He made a DVD with Gokor, and at one time taught with Gokor. I think he was a real badass.

Suppedly Rickson choked Benny out. Then Royce wanted to fight him. That is where it gets murky. From Royce's wiki:

My brother had a big problem with one of the big American kickboxers. Somebody was going to do the commentary for the chapter and they called my brother, and asked if he wanted to face him. He said that he would face anyone in MMA. My brother had already faced and beat him before. He told them to ask him if they knew who he was facing as he should know who he was facing." Benny the Jet pretended he didn't know who the Gracies were, so they made a bet to put a $100,000 down each to fight for something. Benny the Jet later backed down on the bet and allegedly said he didn't want to put his money down and instead put his belt in place of the $100,000 and that if Royce Gracie won, he would become the World Champion in kickboxing.

However, there are contradictory versions of the challenge with American kickboxer Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. According to an interview with Urquidez, the Gracies came to his school and challenged him to a fight. Benny agreed to the fight under the Gracies' rules and asked for time to train and for the fight to be held at a neutral location. When the Gracies found out that Benny was a competent grappler and had been training for many years with grappling legend Gene LeBell and Gokor Chivichyan, they, allegedly, backed out of the fight.

[SPX]

Re: Australia Impact promotion

Damn, forgot the picture. . .