Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I actually tend to agree with SPX for once. I do not think there is some super secret art. But I know for a fact that there are some gym rats out there that can whup quite a bit of ass. There are 6 or 7 pro fighters in my gym. I can tell you for sure that none of them would last more than 30 seconds in any kind of combat with my instructor. Actually, of all teh pros that have come through the gym, including several UFC fighters, I can only think of a couple guys I think could beat him. He just doesn't like MMA though. He doesn't train it, he doesn't watch it. He likes self defense. I have heard stories about some of the guys in Brazil that are just badasses, but can't afford to compete, or just don't like competition.

I also do not believe there is an "ultimate fighter". There will always be a round robin of guys at teh top. In this case, the entire world, the round robin probably consists of thousands of guys that could beat each other... one guy matches up well with one guy, but not another.

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I'm willing to grant that some guys might simply not want to fight professionally, perhaps for health reasons.

But I think it's been shown that that none of the traditional martial arts disciplines can hold up completely to high-level MMA on their own. Even the best BJJ guys and wrestlers need to train substantially to round out their skills.

[edit] As for your judo-karate example, I think we would know about such a person if there were one.

Why? Do you follow the Shotokan and Judo sports that closely?

Can you tell me who won the 2009 AAU National Championships in sparring in the 19-34 division?

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I actually tend to agree with SPX for once.

I have been waiting for this day.

I also do not believe there is an "ultimate fighter". There will always be a round robin of guys at teh top. In this case, the entire world, the round robin probably consists of thousands of guys that could beat each other... one guy matches up well with one guy, but not another.

Yes, and anyone can beat anyone on any given night.

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Why? Do you follow the Shotokan and Judo sports that closely?

Can you tell me who won the 2009 AAU National Championships in sparring in the 19-34 division?

Nope, but I bet whoever it was didn't also win a gold medal in wrestling or judo. Because if he had, I would have heard of him. In any case, I meant that they would be known to the combat sports world in general, not necessarily to me personally.

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Nope, but I bet whoever it was didn't also win a gold medal in wrestling or judo. Because if he had, I would have heard of him. In any case, I meant that they would be known to the combat sports world in general, not necessarily to me personally.

I feel like the combat sports world all but ignores styles like Shotokan. And that "all but" is only in place because of Machida. If it weren't for him, it would just be straight up "ignores."

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I have heard stories about some of the guys in Brazil that are just badasses, but can't afford to compete, or just don't like competition.

So...Rickson by armbar?

I also do not believe there is an "ultimate fighter". There will always be a round robin of guys at teh top. In this case, the entire world, the round robin probably consists of thousands of guys that could beat each other... one guy matches up well with one guy, but not another.

I think there will sometimes be a round robin at the top. But if I'm allowed to pick a weight class: do you really think there's any welterweight out there in the world who would be 50% or better against GSP?

As impossible as I think the "unknown-champion" idea is in MMA, in the interest of fairness, I can think of one vaguely-comparable example in another field, and that's this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I think there will sometimes be a round robin at the top. But if I'm allowed to pick a weight class: do you really think there's any welterweight out there in the world who would be 50% or better against GSP?

As impossible as I think the "unknown-champion" idea is in MMA, in the interest of fairness, I can think of one vaguely-comparable example in another field, and that's this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

Well Rickson did compete. A lot. And brawling in the streets is actually quite common from what I hear. A lot of guys train bjj, but little known fact: judo is actually more popular in Brazil than bjj.


As for ww's that could beat GSP. No I don't think there are any current guys. But there are a lot of guys out there that can stuff GSP's shot. A lot. I am sure one of them hits at least as hard as Serra. I don't think there is anyone that can totally school GSP on the mat. I mean, I think there are a lot of guys that would beat him convincingly, but I would be sort of surprised if he got subbed regularly. I think the ARE a lot of guys that would beat him standing though. There is some guy in Turkey that would ragdoll GSP wrestling and brawl wildly with him. So yeah, I think there are guys out there that can beat GSP. There are just SO MANY bad ass wrestlers in the world. You take a guy like Cael Sanderson, or Satiev- they don't fight. They don't want to (or need to since Cael makes half a mil a year coaching) But they would throw GSP around like a baby. They probably can't stand with him or avoind being submitted, but there is some guy out there that would just brawl him to death, Serra style.

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I agree that the best way to beat GSP is probably to find a (much) better wrestler, and then round out their training, but as things stand, I think they would all have a long way to go. Otherwise they get subbed or beaten on the feet.

Maybe someone could get a victory over him by going all "cave-man", but let's not confuse the "any given fight" phenomenon with the idea of being the best. I'd say anyone who is at better than even odds to beat anyone else can call themselves the best. Best doesn't mean invincible.

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Maybe someone could get a victory over him by going all "cave-man", but let's not confuse the "any given fight" phenomenon with the idea of being the best. I'd say anyone who is at better than even odds to beat anyone else can call themselves the best. Best doesn't mean invincible.

I still like my Shotokan/Judo guy. His Judo could cancel out Edgar's wrestling and he could evade and counter-punch him en route to a Machida-style decision, and if such a guy existed, then he could do this consistently. For that matter, he could do the same to Penn.

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

There are just SO MANY bad ass wrestlers in the world.

Yeah. Especially in Russia, where they not only have many elite wrestlers, but a solid tradition of boxing and sambo as well. The place seems like such a huge minimally-tapped well of potential MMA. We must find more Fedors!

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I'd say anyone who is at better than even odds to beat anyone else can call themselves the best. Best doesn't mean invincible.

well no doubt that GSP would be the favorite against anyone. The scary thing is I can't think of anyone who would be less than a 3:1 dog to him.

I think if you are the undisputed champ and #1 guy, you can call yourself the best in the world at MMA. I thought the argument was whether there was some guy out there that could kick GSP's ass, which I think there is.

Would Rulon be HW champ of the world if he kept fighting? He should be able to outwrestle Brock he looked like he hit pretty damn hard. There are guys out there... lots of guys.

And I agree about Russia. They have some good wrestlers, though they are not THAT dominant over us. We had a run where we were beating them. Someone made a thread a few years ago about Russia. He lived there... he was just pointing out that Fedor likely cares about the american fans about as much as Brock cares about his russian fans. That is, he doesn't. They don't. They have their own world over there and it doesn't revolve around the U.S.

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

There are guys out there... lots of guys.

This is where I'm coming from right here.

[zY|]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I refuse to buy the argument that 'this guy would beat everyone, he just doesn't feel like it'. Just no.

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I refuse to buy the argument that 'this guy would beat everyone, he just doesn't feel like it'. Just no.

How far are you willing to go to bet that NO HUMAN BEING IN THE WORLD AT 170 LBS could beat the shit out of GSP? Would you bet $1? $20? $100? $1000? Your eternal soul?

[Luke]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I refuse to buy the argument that 'this guy would beat everyone, he just doesn't feel like it'. Just no.

How far are you willing to go to bet that NO HUMAN BEING IN THE WORLD AT 170 LBS could beat the shit out of GSP? Would you bet $1? $20? $100? $1000? Your eternal soul?

I'd bet any amount you want if you do the best out of 5 fights. Any smuck could get lucky once but in 5 fights I think GSP would beat anyone on the planet just like I think Mayweather would beat any man in the world at 135,140,147,or 154 in boxing in a best out of 5