Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

[Luke]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I refuse to buy the argument that 'this guy would beat everyone, he just doesn't feel like it'. Just no.

yeah there's way too much money for someone to just say "i dont feel like it"

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I thought the argument was whether there was some guy out there that could kick GSP's ass, which I think there is.

I was just saying I didn't see any room for a "true" rock-paper-scissors effect there. On the other hand, I could totally imagine: Rua outstrikes Machida, wrestler (Evans?, Jones?, Mo?) GnPs Rua, Machida sprawls-and-brawls wrestler, repeat...

But yeah, for any given fight anything's possible. I'd give just about any elite striker a 10% puncher's chance. Hell, didn't Andy Anderson kick Bas Rutten's ass in a bar once?

He lived there... he was just pointing out that Fedor likely cares about the american fans about as much as Brock cares about his russian fans. That is, he doesn't. They don't. They have their own world over there and it doesn't revolve around the U.S.

I could imagine it. But I was surprised to hear Fedor say that he was much better known in the US than in Russia, since apparently it's all boxing over there. Sad, considering MMA did at least get a fledgling start there even way back at the beginning.

You inspired me to wiki Rulon to see what he was up to. Damn! I hadn't heard of this:

In February 2007, Gardner and two others crashed a Cirrus SR-22 airplane into Lake Powell. After surviving the impact, they were forced to swim in 44 °F (7 °C) water for over an hour. The three survived overnight without shelter or fire in 28 °F (?2 °C) air temperature. His amazing luck streak continued when a fisherman, out of his usual route, found and picked them up in the morning.

[AC88]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

I think there will sometimes be a round robin at the top. But if I'm allowed to pick a weight class: do you really think there's any welterweight out there in the world who would be 50% or better against GSP?

As impossible as I think the "unknown-champion" idea is in MMA, in the interest of fairness, I can think of one vaguely-comparable example in another field, and that's this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

Well Rickson did compete. A lot. And brawling in the streets is actually quite common from what I hear. A lot of guys train bjj, but little known fact: judo is actually more popular in Brazil than bjj.


As for ww's that could beat GSP. No I don't think there are any current guys. But there are a lot of guys out there that can stuff GSP's shot. A lot. I am sure one of them hits at least as hard as Serra. I don't think there is anyone that can totally school GSP on the mat. I mean, I think there are a lot of guys that would beat him convincingly, but I would be sort of surprised if he got subbed regularly. I think the ARE a lot of guys that would beat him standing though. There is some guy in Turkey that would ragdoll GSP wrestling and brawl wildly with him. So yeah, I think there are guys out there that can beat GSP. There are just SO MANY bad ass wrestlers in the world. You take a guy like Cael Sanderson, or Satiev- they don't fight. They don't want to (or need to since Cael makes half a mil a year coaching) But they would throw GSP around like a baby. They probably can't stand with him or avoind being submitted, but there is some guy out there that would just brawl him to death, Serra style.

WHICH GUY FROM TURKEY IS THIS?! I THINK THAT'S CRAZY!

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

^^ just a hypothetical some guy.

I think you guys put too much stock in marketing. Of course I would take GSP best of 5 over anyone. That's because the whole argument is that we don't know what other guys can do. If they were known, we wouldn't be arguing. I just know for fact that most of the MMA fighters I have met, were not the best guys I have trained with at all. They are mostly the guys that want to be famous or have something to prove. There is not much money in MMA, most of us probably make more money than all but a handful of fighters. There are places in the world where it is not a simple as, "if you were the best, you would prove it." Some guys don't have money to even enter a bjj tourney, much less train full time. Also, a large portion of the world doesn't know or care about mma. Or it is just some side attraction. So saying some guy in Ghana should man up and prove it makes about as much sense as some Turkish oil wrestler telling GSP to come conquer the oil wrestling world if he is so awesome. All I am saying is there are just tons of fighters in the world. Millions. TO think that MMA has found the one true champ, I just don't think it is likely.

[Luke]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

^^ just a hypothetical some guy.

I think you guys put too much stock in marketing. Of course I would take GSP best of 5 over anyone. That's because the whole argument is that we don't know what other guys can do. If they were known, we wouldn't be arguing. I just know for fact that most of the MMA fighters I have met, were not the best guys I have trained with at all. They are mostly the guys that want to be famous or have something to prove. There is not much money in MMA, most of us probably make more money than all but a handful of fighters. There are places in the world where it is not a simple as, "if you were the best, you would prove it." Some guys don't have money to even enter a bjj tourney, much less train full time. Also, a large portion of the world doesn't know or care about mma. Or it is just some side attraction. So saying some guy in Ghana should man up and prove it makes about as much sense as some Turkish oil wrestler telling GSP to come conquer the oil wrestling world if he is so awesome. All I am saying is there are just tons of fighters in the world. Millions. TO think that MMA has found the one true champ, I just don't think it is likely.

show us the fighter or its just as real as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Some guys don't have money to even enter a bjj tourney, much less train full time.

Then I doubt they would be able to be the best.

I just have a different idea than you do about the gap that exists between top level professional and olympic athletes and other guys. You said:

TO think that MMA has found the one true champ, I just don't think it is likely.

I'd say that champions in highly competitive sports are "made", not "found". If you don't have the time and the inclination to train your ass off day in and day out, you aren't going to be the best. And the only people who can do that, do it for competition. To take examples even more fundamental than fighting: People in every little corner of the world are running and swimming, far more than the "millions" of fighters. But is there any chance that Usain Bolt is not the fastest sprinter in the world? Or that Michael Phelps is not the best swimmer in his events? No way. Only a completely insane person would train at the level required to match them and then not compete. People just don't do that.


Exception: I don't yet think women's MMA is yet at the level where this applies.

[zY|]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Then I doubt they would be able to be the best.

Yep.

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

If you don't have the time and the inclination to train your ass off day in and day out, you aren't going to be the best.

What is "day in and day out?"

For many fighters, this means, maybe, 3 hours a day. Plenty of people who don't fight professionally could train to this extent.

Look where Shane Carwin's at and he has a day job.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Some guys don't have money to even enter a bjj tourney, much less train full time.

Then I doubt they would be able to be the best.

I just have a different idea than you do about the gap that exists between top level professional and olympic athletes and other guys. You said:

TO think that MMA has found the one true champ, I just don't think it is likely.

I'd say that champions in highly competitive sports are "made", not "found". If you don't have the time and the inclination to train your ass off day in and day out, you aren't going to be the best. And the only people who can do that, do it for competition. To take examples even more fundamental than fighting: People in every little corner of the world are running and swimming, far more than the "millions" of fighters. But is there any chance that Usain Bolt is not the fastest sprinter in the world? Or that Michael Phelps is not the best swimmer in his events? No way. Only a completely insane person would train at the level required to match them and then not compete. People just don't do that.


Exception: I don't yet think women's MMA is yet at the level where this applies.

Well, you see guys comeo out of the woodwork all the time. Take a guy like Patricio Pitbull. None of us had ever heard of this guy, just because he never fought in the U.S. He is probably a top 5 talent @ BW. My point is that there are guys like this everywhere, not just Brazil. Pitbull is probably 1 of about 10 guys in his gym that can fight like that- none of which any of us have ever heard of. "Making it" to the UFC is more about connections than ability. Then there are guys who train with Pitbull, but just can't take a week off of work to come to the U.S. to fight. It's all marketing. There are guys that can kick a lot of ass that we have never heard of. Of course I can't prove it... except to say that guys you have never heard of show up every month and dazzle us. No one knew who Jon Jones was a year ago. Or JDS. Or Cain... and these are the guys that come from famous camps. To think there is not some WW Kamal Shalorus out there.. well I don't believe it.

I could give you list of all the world class wrestlers from Kazakstan. It would be longer than the list of the UFC roster. Then there are 195 other nations pretty much all of which have some kind of fighting tradition.

[zY|]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

^^is Borat in your list? Who gives a shit about Kazakhstan? GSP would beat the shit out of a WW Shalorus. Shalorus got his ass kicked by Jamie Varner. What are we talking about again?

Obviously guys like that have potential, but that's not what we're talking about. The best fighter in the world is probably some guy who has never even thought about fighting, so in essence, it's irrelevant and we can move on to more tangible things.

[Svino]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

For many fighters, this means, maybe, 3 hours a day. Plenty of people who don't fight professionally could train to this extent.

Look where Shane Carwin's at and he has a day job.

Yeah, I admit this is a good point. I am amazed at the fact that Carwin can fight the way he can while keeping his job.

But yeah, like zY said, even those guys that do come in from unknown camps, like Jones and Pitbull (and Lesnar) are just "good prospects" at first. They don't get anywhere near the top unless they have been truly training for MMA for a while. And I don't believe it's just marketing either, they really need that time to improve. You can tell Cain has gotten a lot better than when he started.

Anyway, back on the Fedor vs. Werdum topic: here is some discussion of the fight by some Gracies that I found interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1N23qOTqZo

[zY|]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

It ain't like Carwin is holding down a 9 to 5. He pretty much works when he wants/can. He's as much a full time fighter as anyone else. The difference is he doesn't spend the rest of his day playing Call of Duty.

[Luke]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

Cung Le tells MMAWeekly.com he has no interest in fighting in StrikForce’s upcoming middleweight tournament. The former middleweight champion says he intends to sit down with Scott Coker soon to decide his next potential bout

“You know tournaments, let those young guys do the tour years old, and even though I looked 28 on Saturday, after chips, and cookies in my stomach, I feel like a 38-year-old Strikeforce, and I’m happy that Scott Coker supported me off.

“I want to sit down with Scott Coker and see what he has i didn’t take that much wear and tear in this fight, and you exactly what I want to do at this point.”

[SPX]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

“You know tournaments, let those young guys do the tour years old, and even though I looked 28 on Saturday, after chips, and cookies in my stomach, I feel like a 38-year-old Strikeforce, and I’m happy that Scott Coker supported me off.

“I want to sit down with Scott Coker and see what he has i didn’t take that much wear and tear in this fight, and you exactly what I want to do at this point.”

What the fuck? Was this shit translated from English into Vietnamese and then back into English or what?

[Luke]

Re: Strikeforce: Fedor VS Werdum

“You know tournaments, let those young guys do the tour years old, and even though I looked 28 on Saturday, after chips, and cookies in my stomach, I feel like a 38-year-old Strikeforce, and I’m happy that Scott Coker supported me off.

“I want to sit down with Scott Coker and see what he has i didn’t take that much wear and tear in this fight, and you exactly what I want to do at this point.”

What the fuck? Was this shit translated from English into Vietnamese and then back into English or what?

I'd say yes but Cung speaks english so I have no idea