Bellator 24

[Luke]

Re: Bellator 24

Holy shit, Bodog just opened Fujii at -825.

That's a little more what I was expecting across the board.

bodog

It was -460 last timw I looked at 5dimes

[zY|]

Re: Bellator 24

Judo is an awesome sport, but the rules are too limited.

I think, if anything, the problem is the gi. If you're looking at judo as a self-contained sport--that is, judo as judo--then it doesn't really matter. The gi is just part of what makes it what it is.

But if we're going to take judo out of its own world, and specifically if we're going to throw it into the gi-less world of MMA, then obviously some techniques are just not going to be valid and others will have to be modified. Once you take the gi off, Judo really isn't too far away from Greco, but with trips.

I thought Judo also included ground work and submissions.

[edman5555]

Re: Bellator 24

Yeah, I really don't see any decent bets on this card. Maybe Yves Edwards and Eddie Sanchez.

[Luke]

Re: Bellator 24

What day is this on? I'm going to try and watch my first Bellator this time

[zY|]

Re: Bellator 24

Tomorrow

[Luke]

Re: Bellator 24

Tomorrow

thanks

[SPX]

Re: Bellator 24

I thought Judo also included ground work and submissions.

It does. On the ground, Judo actually has three distinct elements: chokes, joint locks, and pins. (You can win a judo match by keeping your opponent pinned for 30 seconds, which I think is a little known fact.)

So I was only referring to the throwing/takedown aspect of the sport. Although Judo does also fall into some of the same pitfalls as BJJ on the ground, in that many of the chokes are also dependent on the gi. It's worth noting, though, that in a self-defense situation, sometimes that actually transitions well, because people wear clothes and jackets and whatnot.

[SPX]

Re: Bellator 24

It was -460 last timw I looked at 5dimes

-700 now on 5dimes.

[Ludo]

Re: Bellator 24

Judo tends to limit it's competitors from what I've read, seeing as no leg locks of any kind are permitted in competition(at least thats what I keep reading and hearing about). While it would definitely serve MMA fighters with something of a ground game if I'm not mistaken Judo is primarily directed toward the trips and throws. While I'm not really sure if there is a lot of time allowed in competition to work transitions and different maneuvers because I have never competed in Judo I would think that some of it gets lost in translation when trying to convert it to suit an MMA type format. Lack of a gi being a huge detriment to Judo Players in and I'm not sure if Judo competition has things like stand ups when no one seems to be getting anywhere after things have hit the ground but if that is the case it seems like it could leave a Judo player guessing after a little while if nothing comes to fruition as far as submission attempts on the ground. Again I'm not an authority by any means on Judo so I don't know if any of what I said above about the inner workings of competition is right or not but it just sounds like a straight Judo base isn't the best base for MMA.

[SPX]

Re: Bellator 24

^^^ You're correct on many counts.

One thing I would have to mention is that Judo, while not being as extensive on the ground as BJJ, does have plenty of locks and holds. If I remember correctly, there are about 10 arm locks and 15 chokes in the system. Then there are a handful of leg locks and neck cranks, but these are not allowed in competition. So one thing you have to do is make sure not to confuse judo, the system, with the official Olympic rules.

(BTW, by contrast, there are 67 throws in Kodokan judo.)

A lot of people think that the Olympics have really done a disservice to Judo because, in order to make it more exciting and more palatable for spectators, the amount of time you have on the ground is limited. You get about 30 seconds (the ref just estimates) and if you can't do anything with it, you get stood up. I personally had to deal with this in the one judo comp I competed in. I was a 123 lb. white belt with a couple of months experience against a 150 lb. guy who had been doing it for a good bit longer. I actually had his back at one point, but he turtled up and I couldn't do much about it. I couldn't get an arm and couldn't get his neck, so we got stood back up. He went on to throw me and win the match a minute or two later.

The stand ups suck and I don't like them, but the bright spot is that the way you train in class is all up to your instructor. So yes, while the emphasis is on throws, my instructor was always really cool and during randori (sparring, basically) we could work the ground as much as we wanted, and we did it a lot.

There actually is a form of judo called Kosen Judo, which emphasizes ne waza, or ground work, but it's not prevalent and schools are hard to find. Many say that Kosen judo is pretty close to what Kodokan judo used to be, before the Olympics got involved.

For any Judoka who wanted to get into MMA, I would strongly advise that they watch Karo's DVD series. I've seen some of it and there's actually some really good stuff in there:

[Ludo]

Re: Bellator 24

Thanks for the info, SPX. I have always been intrigued by various grappling styles and all combat styles for that matter but I never really looked into Judo too much for whatever reason.

[zY|]

Re: Bellator 24

A lot of people think that the Olympics have really done a disservice to Judo because, in order to make it more exciting and more palatable for spectators, the amount of time you have on the ground is limited. You get about 30 seconds (the ref just estimates) and if you can't do anything with it, you get stood up. I personally had to deal with this in the one judo comp I competed in. I was a 123 lb. white belt with a couple of months experience against a 150 lb. guy who had been doing it for a good bit longer. I actually had his back at one point, but he turtled up and I couldn't do much about it. I couldn't get an arm and couldn't get his neck, so we got stood back up. He went on to throw me and win the match a minute or two later.

Yeah that's kinda what I suspected. The focus is mostly on the throws these days.

There was an interview with Royce Gracie on Fightweek a few weeks ago, and he was asked about UFC 1 and why BJJ was the best style. He made an interesting point about how martial arts get watered down over time because they lose the self-defense aspect and focus mainly on sport and point-fighting, and he pointed specifically to Judo as an example of that (and also lamented sport jiu-jitsu beginning to do the same with BJJ). In fact, didn't BJJ evolve from Judo, partially at least?

[SPX]

Re: Bellator 24

In fact, didn't BJJ evolve from Judo, partially at least?

That's exactly right.

To quote from Wiki:

The art began with Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Conde Koma, or Count Coma in English), an expert Japanese judoka and member of the then-recently-founded Kodokan. Maeda was one of five of Judo's top groundwork experts that Judo's founder Kano Jigoro sent overseas to demonstrate and spread his art to the world. Maeda left Japan in 1904 and visited a number of countries giving "jiu-do" demonstrations and accepting challenges from wrestlers, boxers, savate fighters and various other martial artists before eventually arriving in Brazil on November 14, 1914.

Jiu-jitsu is known as more than just a system of fighting. Since its inception in 1882, its parent art of judo was separated from older systems of Japanese jujutsu by an important difference that was passed on to BJJ: it is not solely a martial art: it is also a sport; a method for promoting physical fitness and building character in young people; and, ultimately, a way (Do) of life.

It is often claimed that BJJ is a development of traditional Japanese jujutsu, not judo, and that Maeda was a jujutsuka. However, Maeda never trained in jujutsu. He first trained in sumo as a teenager, and after the interest generated by stories about the success of judo at contests between judo and jujutsu that were occurring at the time, he changed from sumo to judo, becoming a student of Kano's Kodokan judo. He was promoted to 7th dan in Kodokan judo the day before he died in 1941.

Helio Gracie also held the rank of 6th dan in judo.

When Maeda left Japan, judo was still often referred to as "Kano Jiu-Jitsu", or, even more generically, simply as "Jiu-Jitsu." Higashi, the co-author of "Kano Jiu-Jitsu" wrote in the foreword:

"Some confusion has arisen over the employment of the term 'jiudo'. To make the matter clear I will state that jiudo is the term selected by Professor Kano as describing his system more accurately than jiu-jitsu does. Professor Kano is one of the leading educators of Japan, and it is natural that he should cast about for the technical word that would most accurately describe his system. But the Japanese people generally still cling to the more popular nomenclature and call it jiu-jitsu."

Outside Japan, however, this distinction was noted even less. Thus, when Maeda and Satake arrived in Brazil in 1914, every newspaper announced "jiu-jitsu" despite both men being Kodokan judoka.

The Japanese government itself did not officially mandate until 1925 that the correct name for the martial art taught in the Japanese public schools should be "judo" rather than "jujutsu". In Brazil, the art is still called "Jiu-Jitsu". When the Gracies went to the United States to spread their art, they used the terms "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" and "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" to differentiate from the already present styles using similar-sounding names. "Jiu-jitsu" is an older romanization that was the original spelling of the art in the West, and it is still in common use, whereas the modern Hepburn romanization is "j?jutsu."

The art is sometimes referred to as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (GJJ), this name was trademarked by Rorion Gracie, but after a legal dispute with his cousin Carley Gracie, his trademark to the name was voided. Other members of the Gracie family often call their style by personalized names, such as Charles Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and similarly, the Machado brothers call their style Machado Jiu-Jitsu (MJJ). While each style and its instructors have their own unique aspects, they are all basic variations of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Today there are three major branches of BJJ from Brazil: Gracie Humaita, Gracie Barra, and Carlson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Each branch can trace its roots back to Mitsuyo Maeda and the Gracie family.

[SPX]

Re: Bellator 24

BTW, this conversation inspired me to look for Judo schools in the area. I found this guy's website:

http://www.zenbeijudo.com/index.shtml

I just had a long conversation about him. I actually asked him how much ground work he likes to teach, and he said back in his competition days that he considered himself "a ground specialist" and that he likes the focus to be 50/50 between standing and the ground. That was a big positive sign for me. I think I might go check a class out next week.

I still have my gi hanging in my closet. This is going to be interesting.

[zY|]

Re: Bellator 24

MAIN CARD
Hector Lombard (185.5) vs. Herbert "Whisper" Goodman (183.5)
Eddie Sanchez (244.5) vs. Neil Grove (n/a)
Megumi Fujii (115.5) vs. Carla Esparza (115.25)
Jessica Aguilar (113.5) vs. Lynn Alvarez (114.5)
UNDERCARD
Yves Edwards (154.5) vs. Luis Palomino (154.5)
Eric Luke (154.5) vs. Farkhard Sharipov (144)
Brian Eckstein (182) vs. Tulio Quintanilla (135.5)