ADCC 2011

[MMA_scientist]

I didn't think he would do well because he is a protypical guard player... but he outwrestled Jacare, he had a very sweet arm drag to single leg. His shot is fast and he actually looks good on his takedowns. That was what is making me think he can do well. Also he is very tall for his weight, I think he would be a MW or could possibly make WW.

It doesn't matter, he has not said he was going into mma, I am just hoping because he had that fight scheduled with Hawn.

I also don't entirely agree with the common idea that wrestling is necessarily the best base. Of all of your all time greats, champs, and PFP fighters, not that many of them were wrestlers. Really Hughes is the only "wrestler" that has been on top of his division for more than a minute (that I can think of off the top of my head).

[Vandelay]

That was the past when most wrestlers had shitty jj. Nowadays all the top guys have a wrestling base. save for Silva and Aldo who havent really faced many wrestlers.

[MMA_scientist]

That was the past when most wrestlers had shitty jj. Nowadays all the top guys have a wrestling base. save for Silva and Aldo who havent really faced many wrestlers.

Just looking at the UFC, there are 4 champions that have defended their titles. Only Cruz has a wrestling base, and even then, he was only a high school wrestler... I wouldn't really even call that a wresting base. He has just adapted to MMA. GSP is no more "a wrestler" than Cain is a bjj guy. GSP does not have a wrestling base, he is a grappler that is good at wrestling. I think he started wrestling last (after karate and BJJ). Of the other 3 champions, they are wrestlers first (Jones, Cain, Edgar), but we'll see how they do. Jones is probably going to stick around. The most dominant guys in history have been anomalies in their own ways, except Hughes, who is pretty much a wrestler.

[Svino]

If you're going by pre-MMA background, wouldn't you have to include Ortiz and Liddell as wrestlers?

[MMA_scientist]

Yeah. Like I said, off the top of my head. Liddell is a good example of being something of an anomaly... he was a pro kickboxer too... but Ortiz is a good example of a wrestler (but again, I don't know if ever wrestled after HS).

The other issue is that there are more wrestlers entering mma than other styles. There are thousands of college wrestlers who are in their athletic primes and then there is nothing for them to do when college wrestling is over. There are far fewer competitors in other styles, especially high level athletes that are coming right from intense training... it would be like if there was no NFL, and all of teh sudden there was a sport that required tackling and running... but wasn't football. There would be a bunch of talent out there looking for something to do. I think that if karate or kickboxing or jj were collegiate sports in the U.S., then we would see a lot more guys in MMA with those styles as a base. Judo is the one sport that is as widely practiced as wrestling (world-wide, nit in the U.S.). I am surprised we don't see more judo guys.

[Svino]

Yeah, I definitely agree that there is a major cultural component to the fact that we have so many wrestlers in MMA. Our college sports system churns out far more trained wrestlers than we have in other martial arts.

But I think submission grappling will always run into a problem at the highest levels of the sport. At high levels, the fights get more even, and even fights are likely to go to a decision. What gets you a decision win?

Striking skill helps you win decisions.
Positional grappling helps you win decisions.
Offensive submission skill pretty much does not help you win decisions.

On the other hand, bjj still seems pretty powerful at lower levels and probably will remain so. Guys like Cody can rack up 12 (identical) submission wins in a row over scrubs.

[MMA_scientist]

I think that sub grappling/bjj will just have to focus more on takedowns. All the same moves that exist in wrestling also exist in bjj. All the takedowns are the same, except some you don't do because they put you in a dangerous spot (like you don't see many fireman's carries because it gives the other guy a crucifix). Guys are getting better at the takedowns now, the same way the guys that came from a non-submission wrestling are getting better at submissions these days. You are starting to see bjj guys taking down wrestlers, and I think that will continue.

I think a lot of it will come down to athleticism. You even see it now, the more athletic wrestlers do well (you do see some pretty unathletic and weak D1 wresters, but you don't see them in MMA) and the more athletic bjj stylists do well with the takedowns, like Jacare.

[Luke]

..

[Luke]

Fixed

[Ludo]

I think it has less to do with the styles themselves and more to do with outside factors like athleticism and gyms now. Nowadays you have the option to train with high level wrestling coaches, jiu jitsu coaches, and striking coaches all in one place in certain gyms, if you can't do it in one place more guys are open to letting people come in and train anyway. It wasn't like that ten or even five years ago. It used to be a rarity for an American to be a Gracie black belt(see Matt Serra) but now they will train anyone who comes knocking with the money to pay for it. Athleticism speaks for itself. I think the only thing holding back certain high level college wrestlers from having success is striking. If they developed faster with striking the takedowns would be set up better, like Munoz.

[Vandelay]

waiting for scientist to come in here crying. Werdum lost, xande and rodolfo lost in semis, and palhares lost.

[Mr. IWS]

waiting for scientist to come in here crying. Werdum lost, xande and rodolfo lost in semis, and palhares lost.

He already commited suicide, but he left a note. Ill post the contents of said note later.

[SPX]

BOL!

[MMA_scientist]

You guys are so weird. I am not a fan of Rodolfo or Palhares at all. I actually think Palhares is a huge douche and I was glad to see Galvao take it to him, especially because he is much smaller than him. I sort of like Xande, but not a favorite. I was never Werdum fan either until I got put in the role of defending him all the time on here. I actually thought that Vinny had a great chance of winning that division, and was not surprised at all... although I think Werdum broke his arm.

Marcelo was incredible. Galvao is on a tear. Rafa won as expected.

Galvao won absolute... I am glad for him, he finally has his moment in the sun. He always gets close, but he has never won one of the big tourneys... good for him.

The only real surprise was that Glover submitted Robson and that Lister came out of nowhere to win a stacked division where I would have seeded him like 8th.

[Luke]

^^^^^^sounds like tears to me