2012 Off topic thread(basketball,movies,etc whatever)

[Ludo]

I remember reading something Dave said about how with CW he was trying to continue the trend of producing more mainstream music that started with Countdown. As I'm sure you know, Countdown was wildly successful compared to their prior albums and broke into the mainstream in a way that they had never done before. Youthanasia, while different from Countdown, was also slower and more radio friendly and it also did well, though not as well as Countdown. With CW, Dave finally wanted to get that #1 record that had always eluded him (Countdown debuted at #2 and never climbed higher than that). I think it's obvious that Trust and Almost Honest were consciously created to be big radio hits.

Alas, however, it debuted at no. 10 and, while it did eventually go Platinum, it was not the seller that Countdown or Youth was.

Well Megadeth for the most part has ridden a fine line between respectable metal and radio friendly music. It's one of the only bands that can be appreciated by the "I only listen to radio" crowd and the strict underground metal head types. Wear a Megadeth shirt to a concert and nobody gives you a second look or calls you a poser like if you wore a Disturbed shirt. But the same guys who like Sodom and Destruction still accept Megadeth's music as thrash all the same.

But yeah, Mustaine is an interesting musician because of his ability to knock your socks off with some of the fastest, hardest thrash of all time and then turn around with an album that hits the top10 on Billboard charts.

I like both KIMB and Kill 'Em All. I'd really need to listen to them again to pick one, though. BTW, you're aware that Dave wrote a lot of the stuff on Kill 'Em All, right? It's a shame that, despite Megadeth's overwhelming success relative to most metal bands that Megadeth was always just one step behind Metallica and never could catch up, at least in terms of popularity and record sales.

He didn't really write alot of it but he influenced most of it. He only wrote the first four bars of most of the solos on the albums, which means they were incomplete when Hammett was brought on board. But while Dave didn't write it all he played the ever loving shit out of it. Part of why the next album Metallica produced sounded so much different was because Dave is a unique guitarist with a rare talent for not only taking what's written and playing it to perfection but also adding his own stylistic twist to everything he plays. Hammett is one of the all time greats, but the two styles are different.

I can't say that I have, no. Who would you recommend?

I'd recommend:
Bonded By Blood(Try "Necropsy", "Prison Planet", and "Feed The Beast" for songs to start)
Alkoholizer
Evile(My personal favorite of the bunch)
Fastkill
Fueled By Fire
Gama Bomb
Suicidal Angels(don't let the name fool you, these guys jam)
Warbringer: they almost remind Me of Demolition Hammer in the overall sound, Combat Shock is an awesome song

[SPX]

Interesting recent interview with Dave Ellefson, talking about Megadeth, music and religion:

[Ludo]

BTW Ludo, a few other things:

1. If you haven't read it, you really should check out Dave's autobiography. I read it right after it was released and it really is very interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Mustaine-Heavy-Metal-Memoir-Dave/dp/0061714402/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329619712&sr=8-1

2. Any thoughts on the Originals vs Remasters?

3. What's your opinion of the quality of today's music from Megadeth vs today's music from Metallica? And by "today" I mean everything that's come out in the last 10 years or so.

I like the Remasters. The music itself is the real aim, and with better recording technology to "upgrade" what was inferior sound before allows someone to truly appreciate it for what it is rather than just what didn't get hindered by the time.

I'd have to give the last ten years overall to Megadeth, Metallica went seriously gay for a long while there, and weren't even making music for most of the last ten years. I will say I did like Death Magnetic, though. It was raw and reflected four guys who had been through it all and were still trucking along.

[SPX]

Well Megadeth for the most part has ridden a fine line between respectable metal and radio friendly music. It's one of the only bands that can be appreciated by the "I only listen to radio" crowd and the strict underground metal head types. Wear a Megadeth shirt to a concert and nobody gives you a second look or calls you a poser like if you wore a Disturbed shirt. But the same guys who like Sodom and Destruction still accept Megadeth's music as thrash all the same.

Considering where they came from and that Megadeth was part of the Big 4, I think Dave and the gang (whoever the gang is, since it's kind of a revolving door these days) have eternal street cred. It should never go away, regardless of what kind of music they make in the future. Even if Dave turned Megadeth into an acid jazz jam band that doesn't make KIMB, Peace Sells, SFSGSW, and Rust in Peace cease to exist.

What I DON'T get though is why so-called metal heads want to say that a band like Disturbed is not metal when a lot of Disturbed shit is as heavy as anything that Megadeth or Maiden or whoever else has done. I mean, I grew up cutting my teeth on Deth and Metallica and when the nu-metal bands (and eventually the metalcore bands) came along I never once questioned their metalness.

To be honest, I think that bands like Disturbed, Killswitch Engage, and Static X have as much in common with the original "metal bands" as that supposedly "legit" stuff like Sodom does. I mean, Maiden or Priest sound nothing like what a lot of metal heads think of as "real metal" these days.

Basically what I'm saying is that I really hate that elitist shit, especially when it's not based in any sort of fact or logic.

He didn't really write alot of it but he influenced most of it.

I would say that this is definitely arguable based upon who you want to believe.

I'd recommend:
Bonded By Blood(Try "Necropsy", "Prison Planet", and "Feed The Beast" for songs to start)
Alkoholizer
Evile(My personal favorite of the bunch)
Fastkill
Fueled By Fire
Gama Bomb
Suicidal Angels(don't let the name fool you, these guys jam)
Warbringer: they almost remind Me of Demolition Hammer in the overall sound, Combat Shock is an awesome song

Cool, I'll check 'em out.

I like the Remasters. The music itself is the real aim, and with better recording technology to "upgrade" what was inferior sound before allows someone to truly appreciate it for what it is rather than just what didn't get hindered by the time.

I've heard a lot of people debate this. Personally, I would really need to listen to them side-by-side to have an opinion.

One thing I do know though is that the Rust in Peace remaster sucks. The group vocals on Take No Prisoners are weak as fuck.

I'd have to give the last ten years overall to Megadeth, Metallica went seriously gay for a long while there, and weren't even making music for most of the last ten years. I will say I did like Death Magnetic, though. It was raw and reflected four guys who had been through it all and were still trucking along.

Death Magnetic was pretty solid, though I don't find myself wanting to spin it too much. It was cool for like a week.

One thing is for sure though and that is that St. Anger fucking sucked.

BTW, did you ever watch Some Kind of Monster?

[Ludo]

Considering where they came from and that Megadeth was part of the Big 4, I think Dave and the gang (whoever the gang is, since it's kind of a revolving door these days) have eternal street cred. It should never go away, regardless of what kind of music they make in the future. Even if Dave turned Megadeth into an acid jazz jam band that doesn't make KIMB, Peace Sells, SFSGSW, and Rust in Peace cease to exist.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dave took things there one day just to prove a point with his ability to compose.

What I DON'T get though is why so-called metal heads want to say that a band like Disturbed is not metal when a lot of Disturbed shit is as heavy as anything that Megadeth or Maiden or whoever else has done. I mean, I grew up cutting my teeth on Deth and Metallica and when the nu-metal bands (and eventually the metalcore bands) came along I never once questioned their metalness.

To be honest, I think that bands like Disturbed, Killswitch Engage, and Static X have as much in common with the original "metal bands" as that supposedly "legit" stuff like Sodom does. I mean, Maiden or Priest sound nothing like what a lot of metal heads think of as "real metal" these days.

Basically what I'm saying is that I really hate that elitist shit, especially when it's not based in any sort of fact or logic.

I wouldn't call it an elitist attitude so much as being able to clearly see the difference in target audience versus the willingness to compromise artistic design. Disturbed had the potential to be better musically but they chose the radio friendly path. I don't blame them or shit on them for it, but thats not metal.

I will say bands like Killswitch Engage and Static X don't have near as much in common with bands like Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Destruction, Sodom, The Bay Area 4, etc etc etc. The reason is they weren't pioneers. Static X definitely made way for some of the heavier mainstream acts with Wisconsin Death Trip but truth be told they were almost one hit wonders. The above mentioned bands broke ground for an entire genre of music, not a subgenre of a subgenre.

[QUOTE=SPX;332540]I've heard a lot of people debate this. Personally, I would really need to listen to them side-by-side to have an opinion.

One thing I do know though is that the Rust in Peace remaster sucks. The group vocals on Take No Prisoners are weak as fuck.[QUOTE=SPX;332540]

Those backing vocals on Take No Prisoners wasn't great but the rest of the album kicked even more ass after remastering.

Death Magnetic was pretty solid, though I don't find myself wanting to spin it too much. It was cool for like a week.

It was refreshing after St Anger and Load/Reload to hear a full album with balls out of them, especially since St Anger was the first album after Newstead left/got kicked out and it blew.

One thing is for sure though and that is that St. Anger fucking sucked.

Yeah it did. Big time.

BTW, did you ever watch Some Kind of Monster?

Never all in one shot, I've seen it in bits and pieces, though.

[SPX]

I wouldn't be surprised if Dave took things there one day just to prove a point with his ability to compose.

I'd check it out. My tastes in music are a bit more wider in scope these days anyway.

I wouldn't call it an elitist attitude so much as being able to clearly see the difference in target audience versus the willingness to compromise artistic design. Disturbed had the potential to be better musically but they chose the radio friendly path. I don't blame them or shit on them for it, but thats not metal.

I just don't agree, because I could pull plenty of Disturbed songs that are heavier than "Bark at the Moon" or anything Iron Maiden has ever done.

Also, I'll point out that Suicidal Tendencies is another band that has been considered thrash and plenty of Disturbed shit blows their shit out of the water in terms of heaviness.

So what makes something metal? I guess that's the question. But if Iron Maiden is metal . . . if Ozzy is metal . . . if ST is metal . . .

Then so is Disturbed, Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, etc.

I will say bands like Killswitch Engage and Static X don't have near as much in common with bands like Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Destruction, Sodom, The Bay Area 4, etc etc etc. The reason is they weren't pioneers. Static X definitely made way for some of the heavier mainstream acts with Wisconsin Death Trip but truth be told they were almost one hit wonders. The aforemention bands broke ground for an entire genre of music, not a subgenre of a subgenre.

I really don't get how that makes them not metal.

Killswitch is fucking METAL! Static X is METAL! Maybe they are influenced by other shit--electronica/techno in the case of Static-X--but that doesn't mean they're not metal.

It was refreshing after St Anger and Load/Reload to hear a full album with balls out of them, especially since St Anger was the first album after Newstead left/got kicked out and it blew.

I thought Load and Re-Load had some good tracks.

King Nothing and Fuel were both solid.

Never all in one shot, I've seen it in bits and pieces, though.

You should sit down and watch it all the way through.

Also check out Anvil: The Story of Anvil.

[Ludo]

The problem with comparing Disturbed to Maiden is that Maiden's music was written mostly 20+ years before Disturbed ever hit the scene. But as it goes with comparing things. Can you find any song by Disturbed thats heavier, faster than any of the well known Slayer songs like South of Heaven, Dead Skin Mask, Reign In Blood, Hell Awaits, or Angel Of Death?

What I'm getting at is it's not *just* being heavier than someone else that makes a band or it's music metal. Hatebreed might be heavier than Led Zeppelin but that doesn't make them a metal band. If Disturbed, Static X, Killswitch Engage, Linkin Park, and Limp Bizkit are metal then what are Macabre, Metal Church, Manowar, Edguy, GraveDigger, and Hatchet? I see almost no similarity between the bands you named and the ones I named. Not even from a compositional standpoint.

I wouldn't classify Suicidal Tendencies as a Thrash band so much as a Hardcore Punk band. The musical composition works for a crossover band but the themes are punk to the core.

Killswitch Engage is one of the founding bands for the metalcore genre. Some of the early work is fantastic, but somewhere along the way they veered off into the land of unnecessary breakdowns.

I loved that Anvil Documentary, and have all their albums. "The best band you never heard of" is an incredibly accurate description.

[SPX]

The problem with comparing Disturbed to Maiden is that Maiden's music was written mostly 20+ years before Disturbed ever hit the scene. But as it goes with comparing things. Can you find any song by Disturbed thats heavier, faster than any of the well known Slayer songs like South of Heaven, Dead Skin Mask, Reign In Blood, Hell Awaits, or Angel Of Death?

What I'm getting at is it's not *just* being heavier than someone else that makes a band or it's music metal. Hatebreed might be heavier than Led Zeppelin but that doesn't make them a metal band. If Disturbed, Static X, Killswitch Engage, Linkin Park, and Limp Bizkit are metal then what are Macabre, Metal Church, Manowar, Edguy, GraveDigger, and Hatchet? I see almost no similarity between the bands you named and the ones I named. Not even from a compositional standpoint.

Well I guess that's exactly my point . . . that metal is an umbrella term involving a wide range of music.

When I was growing up, I listened to a lot of Megadeth and Metallica and I also listened to a lot of Motley Crue. And I daresay, "Kickstart My Heart" and "Dr. Feel Good" don't sound like the same kind of music as "Master of Puppets" and "Devil's Island." But nevertheless, they were both considered metal, or at least FORMS of metal. One was THRASH metal, while the other was GLAM metal.

Even within the singular genre of "thrash," I thought there were distinct differences between, say, Slayer and Megadeth, with Slayer being more akin to modern bands like Arch Enemy or basically everything that you've said you listen to, and Megadeth being more akin to . . . I dunno . . . something with clean vocals, more melody, and more influences from other musical forms.

So basically the way I see it is that "metal" is just a generic term that includes many sub-genres. Whether it's thrash metal, death metal, rap metal, black metal, nu metal, doom metal, metalcore, etc. it's still all metal. It may not be what YOU LIKE, but that doesn't mean it's not metal.

[zY|]

Jesus fucking christ.

Did I go through a wormhole and come out at http://www.metal-archives.com/ ?

Nothing worse than subgenre and categorical elitism. Who gives a fuck?

[SPX]

Nothing worse than subgenre and categorical elitism. Who gives a fuck?

Oh? I thought you were firmly on the "It's not metal if it's not like [insert band here]" bandwagon.

[Ludo]

When I was growing up, I listened to a lot of Megadeth and Metallica and I also listened to a lot of Motley Crue. And I daresay, "Kickstart My Heart" and "Dr. Feel Good" don't sound like the same kind of music as "Master of Puppets" and "Devil's Island." But nevertheless, they were both considered metal, or at least FORMS of metal. One was THRASH metal, while the other was GLAM metal.

Personally I love listening to Motley Crue, pretty much the only glam metal band I'll listen to. There are plenty subgenres of metal but there are "main" subgenres that are much more prominent, or that came first and stood out. These are thrash, death metal, power metal, and pop metal. Everything else more or less branched out of these with some punk/hardcore roots along with it.

Even within the singular genre of "thrash," I thought there were distinct differences between, say, Slayer and Megadeth, with Slayer being more akin to modern bands like Arch Enemy or basically everything that you've said you listen to, and Megadeth being more akin to . . . I dunno . . . something with clean vocals, more melody, and more influences from other musical forms.

So basically the way I see it is that "metal" is just a generic term that includes many sub-genres. Whether it's thrash metal, death metal, rap metal, black metal, nu metal, doom metal, metalcore, etc. it's still all metal. It may not be what YOU LIKE, but that doesn't mean it's not metal.

You have things like Grindcore and Norwegian Black Metal that sort of had it's day and faded out or got watered down that strayed from the roots of Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror, Exhumed, Mayhem, DarkThrone, Immortal, Emperor, Burzum, Gorgoroth, and Marduk. There are the pioneers of various obscure subgenres such as doom metal, neo-emo hardcore with bands like Amorphis, Goblin Cock, Candlemass, Moonspell, Atreyu, Bleeding Through, Lacuna Coil. But then you have genres that stray from the basic essence of things like goth metal and industrial like Helloween, Tiamat, Therion, Katatonia, Ministry, Godflesh, and White Zombie.

On a side note from what is and isn't metal: have you ever listened to any crossover acts?

[Ludo]

Even within the singular genre of "thrash," I thought there were distinct differences between, say, Slayer and Megadeth, with Slayer being more akin to modern bands like Arch Enemy or basically everything that you've said you listen to, and Megadeth being more akin to . . . I dunno . . . something with clean vocals, more melody, and more influences from other musical forms.

Well Megadeth would be more of a concept thrash band if that makes sense. They have pretty much done nothing but concept albums and everything seems to be a 40-60 minute musical story. Slayer is really the only band of the big four to never really stray from the a-typical "Speed Metal and Thrash go hand in hand" approach. Faster was always better for them. There are also a slew of ultra technical and or dark thrash bands who like to mix things up with really complicated riffs beyond the standard galloping variations. Bands like Annihilator, Overkill, Kreator(which follows Megadeth's anti-establishment themes), Exciter, and to a point Venom all ride a line between the limits of speed and technical ability.

[zY|]

Oh? I thought you were firmly on the "It's not metal if it's not like [insert band here]" bandwagon.

They're still 'metal', just a lot of them are gay.

[SPX]

Personally I love listening to Motley Crue, pretty much the only glam metal band I'll listen to. There are plenty subgenres of metal but there are "main" subgenres that are much more prominent, or that came first and stood out. These are thrash, death metal, power metal, and pop metal. Everything else more or less branched out of these with some punk/hardcore roots along with it.

I'm not sure I know what power metal is, but in my view this right here further reinforces my view that metal as a genre is constantly shifting and evolving and changing. I do think there do have to be SOME requirements in order for something to be metal. I mean, the fucking Spin Doctors aren't metal. Soundgarden isn't metal. The Foo Fighters aren't metal, even though somehow they won an award the other day for "best metal song." But a lot of bands are that have a wide range of sounds.

Anyway. . .

On a side note from what is and isn't metal: have you ever listened to any crossover acts?

Like who/what exactly are you referring to?

[SPX]

They're still 'metal', just a lot of them are gay.

BOL!

Fair enough.