UFC 115 discussion/odds

[edman5555]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Wikipedia. I seriously recommend it. Hopefully it's all accurate. I read about a lot of fighters there. You can get a lot of background info about them that you don't find anywhere else.

Also did you wrestle collegiate Scientist?

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Once you acheive your blackbelt, you get a stripe every 2 years as long as you stay active either teaching or competing.

There's not any sort of testing process?

no, if you are a blackbelt, you have mastered the art. A degree just means you are active.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Wikipedia. I seriously recommend it. Hopefully it's all accurate. I read about a lot of fighters there. You can get a lot of background info about them that you don't find anywhere else.

Also did you wrestle collegiate Scientist?

I wiki. But I can't Wiki every guy in the world before I post things...There is only so much time in between pretending to work and posting. unfortunately I do not have every MMA fighter's entire back history committed to memory.

I did wrestle for a few years in college. I also did some club wrestling after college and I coached HS wrestling.

Wrestlers are the greatest takedown artists in the world. I am not shitting on wrestling. I love wrestling. I actually enjoyed the NCAA's this year probably more than any MMA event. I actually got misty after the 133 match this year (Jayson Ness). It was so pure... one of the best moments in sports viewing for me.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

no, if you are a blackbelt, you have mastered the art. A degree just means you are active.

You see, that's foreign to me.

In ITF TKD, it takes about 3 1/2 years to get to black belt, but like I said, at that point you are only considered to have mastered the "basics." After that, you continue to learn new material and have to test to get to higher ranks.

I hear a lot of BJJ guys talking about how it takes X amount of years to get to black belt, and that it's weak how other MA styles let you get it so much earlier, but I now see that they fail to realize that a black belt represents different things in different martial arts.

I think that's pretty much the way it is with most other martial arts as well, including karate and judo.

[sbjj]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Actually, Beltran did control Rolles on the ground, and Beltran has wrestled.

This is a weird argument, are you saying that if you took a high level wrestler, with no MMA experience, and put him in the cage with a high level BJJ competitior, with no MMA, that the BJJ would always win? You are most likely right in that case. But if you give them both a year of MMA experience, than you are more than likely way wrong.

[AC88]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I agree that Tyson is a moron for wanting to be the world's smallest kickboxer. When you get outstruck by Sean Sherk, whose arms are probably the same length as his torso, pure striking is never a good gameplan

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

no, if you are a blackbelt, you have mastered the art. A degree just means you are active.

You see, that's foreign to me.

In ITF TKD, it takes about 3 1/2 years to get to black belt, but like I said, at that point you are only considered to have mastered the "basics." After that, you continue to learn new material and have to test to get to higher ranks.

I hear a lot of BJJ guys talking about how it takes X amount of years to get to black belt, and that it's weak how other MA styles let you get it so much earlier, but I now see that they fail to realize that a black belt represents different things in different martial arts.

I think that's pretty much the way it is with most other martial arts as well, including karate and judo.

I agree. I don't devalue a blackbelt just because it comes more quickly in other arts. But a 2nd degree blackbelt is not really considered to be "better" than a blackbelt in bjj. And it really doesn't take THAT long. Some guys will hold out for 10-15 years... I think it took Al bundy almost 15 years. But there are plenty of guys that get there in 6-7 years. I would say 8-10 is average.

But they do say that a blackbelt is just the beginning... because bjj is low impact, it is expected that you will continue into old age... so you will have the blackbelt rank much longer than all of your other ranks, and probably longer than all of them combined.

I think because bjj is a new sport, it carries the new world mentality that to be a blackbelt, you have to be a bad ass... right or wrong, that's the mentality. You hear a lot of stories about fights and splits and ranks being earned and defending the rank, etc. There is a lot of drama in the bjj world, which I dislike.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I agree. I don't devalue a blackbelt just because it comes more quickly in other arts. But a 2nd degree blackbelt is not really considered to be "better" than a blackbelt in bjj. And it really doesn't take THAT long. Some guys will hold out for 10-15 years... I think it took Al bundy almost 15 years. But there are plenty of guys that get there in 6-7 years. I would say 8-10 is average.

Didn't BJ do it in something like 3 years?

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Actually, Beltran did control Rolles on the ground, and Beltran has wrestled.

This is a weird argument, are you saying that if you took a high level wrestler, with no MMA experience, and put him in the cage with a high level BJJ competitior, with no MMA, that the BJJ would always win? You are most likely right in that case. But if you give them both a year of MMA experience, than you are more than likely way wrong.

I am saying you don't see high level bjj practitioners being controlled on the ground by wrestlers, of any level.

Its not really about who would be a better fighter, although I fully disagree with you. I agree that wrestling is a more versatile base, but it is because of the takedowns. As a wrestler you only have to be better at one thing, usually wrestlers sprawl and brawl bjj stylists, and takedown the strikers.

That said, you can still be a perfectly awesome mma fighter with 0 minutes of wrestling training. There are no competent mma fighters without bjj training. So "better" is really how you define it. In fact, except Lesnar, ALL of the UFC and Strikeforce Champions are bjj blackbelts (still calling Penn champ, since he won). I guess Melendez is only a purple belt.

The "argument" is that a wrestler cannot control a good bjj guy on the ground. I use this as one of my pillars of mma betting. And as of yet, I don't think I have ever lost a bet based on this criteria being wrong. I lose them for other reasons though. I thought Shaolin would beat Beerbohm for example... but I just didn't count on Shaolin having the worst gameplan ever. I lose when I misjudge the takedown/defense of the fighters. But if the wrestler is dumb enough to come into the wheelhouse, you get JT/Leites or Lindland/Jacare- about 99% of the time.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Didn't BJ do it in something like 3 years?

Indeed. But he was also a natural talent and had the means to train all day every day. Aside from that, his brother was actually trained in bjj before him, and my sources tell me that BJ actually trained with his brotehr quite a bit before the 3 year clock started running. Don't know if that is true, but makes sense given that we know JD was ranked ahead of BJ, and we know BJ's ego won't let him lose. We get guys all the time that don't want to train in the gym until they get good enought to not get humiliated. They train with their buddy or do privates until they are ready.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

^^^ Overeem is a BJJ blackbelt?

Oh, and Edgar is the champ. It's just the truth.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I thought Overeem was a bb... but I didn't Wiki every guy... so hopefully sbjj won't call the wiki police.

[Mr. IWS]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

In fairness, Rolles was on fumes in that Beltran fight. I could have controlled Rolles after a few minutes.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

^^^ Overeem is a BJJ blackbelt?

Oh, and Edgar is the champ. It's just the truth.

Fine. Edgar is the champ. Purple is the minimum efficiency required, since Gil and Edgar are both gi trained purples. Little known fact, Brock trains in the Gi and started out with Royce.

[Luke]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Lets settle this and put Lesnar in the cage with Roger Gracie