UFC 115 discussion/odds

[zY|]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Notice they bring him only into Canadian shows.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Loiseau has really lost some of the explosiveness that made him dangerous. This guy beat Evan Tanner a few years ago. He used to be so explosive... don't know what happened. Time I guess.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Notice they bring him only into Canadian shows.

I have noticed that, and even then, when it seems like they'd want him to win to please the crowd, they give him a fight that they know he's not going to win.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

When I think of him, I always think of him finishing a fight with a spinning back kick. The only other fighter I've seen who has that kind of power in that technique is Dennis Siver.

[zY|]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Yeah he kicked Charles McCarthy's guts out. I don't think it's so much power as it is the technique to land it in close like that.

When I think of Loiseau I always think of the 5 round asswhooping Rich Franklin threw him, and how swollen his face was. He looked like a goddamn cyclops.

[AC88]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I'm amazed that the UFC has given him so many chances. They should just match him up with a striker next time. Grapplers eat him for any meal of the day.

I don't understand why, if they ARE going to keep bringing him back, that they don't give him strikers. My guess is that they don't actually want him to win . . . they just want to get a W for their prospect.

He's not a bad guy to build a prospect off of I guess. IMO he wouldn't even get through very many of the strikers in the MW division now. I don't see a bright future for him in MMA. I can't see Loiseau having a major striking advantage over the likes of: Akiyama, Dollaway, Okami or Chris Leben. I think Marquardt, Belcher and probably even Wandy would beat his ass standing up.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I don't see a bright future for him in MMA.

Well the thing is that he keeps winning fights outside of the UFC. He's 5-3 in his last 8 fights, and two of those losses were in the UFC. The other is a split decision against Jason Day.

[AC88]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I don't see a bright future for him in MMA.

Well the thing is that he keeps winning fights outside of the UFC. He's 5-3 in his last 8 fights, and two of those losses were in the UFC. The other is a split decision against Jason Day.

We'll say UFC then. lol

[Luke]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

My bad, confused you with Edman555. Your post and his post taken separately are not mean spirited. I read it as "Rolles Gracie competes, Wiki is your friend- dumbass."

My mistake. As for him being controlled, I have always said HW bjj is pretty much wrestling.


And whoever said Roger vs. Brock... ok- a 285 pound wrestler vs 205 bjj stylist will solve the debate. Why don't we put Roger in with Mo. I would bet my house on a submission (if Mo grappled with him, which he wouldn't). That is about as close as we will get to two guys at the top of thier games.

Or we could just re-watch Sonnen-Maia or Lindland-Jacare. Or I know, we could watch Severn-Gracie. That anyone even thinks this is debateable is ridiculous to me. If a wrestler could beat or even stall out in submission grappling, don't you think some enterprising wrestler would like to take home the $100,000 ADCC prize? Askren tried it this year. He did win one match. Too bad he would have had win liek seven times. Its been tried before. ADCC is open to all styles and there are substantial cash prizes for even winning one division. It actually pays more than most MMA fights.

Eveb Randy did a grappling match with Jacare. Randy was 220 and Jacare was 185. Randy managed to stall it out, but even Randy said he was just defending the entire time.

The one exception is your wrestling hero Jeff Monson, also a bjj blackbelt, who won ADCC a few years back. But the again, he is a HW.

Ok then lets put Lesnar in there with Werdum He's 240 instead of Gracie and the 2009 ADCC champ.Either way Lesnar wins.

Also the ADCC winner doesnt get 100K:

The winner of each weight class receives a monetary prize of US$10,000, while the runner up receives $5,000, third receives $3,000 and the fourth receives $1,000. The winner of the absolute weight class receives $40,000, the runner up receives $10,000, third receives $5,000 and the fourth receives $1,000

Even if Lendar won the absolute and over 99KG thats only 50k you think Lesnar is going to waste his time for 50k when he makes 5x+ than that per fight?

I already gave you Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie who was a ADCC champ
And somehow Sakuraba-Renzo Gracie doesnt count even though Renzo was also a ADCC champ.If ADCC champs arent elite who is? Sakuraba is a wrestler and beat both of them

I like to say also Ryan Bader vs. Vinicius Magalhaes since Magalhaes came in 3rd in the 2009 ADCC but he got KTFO so fast by Bader that it never made it to the ground


If BJJ is so dominate over wrestling why doesnt it also work at HW? I'm not saying wreslting is better but its alot closer gap than your making it out to be. I mean a top wrestler that can throw a punch is UFC HW champ

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I like to say also Ryan Bader vs. Vinicius Magalhaes since Magalhaes came in 3rd in the 2009 ADCC but he got KTFO so fast by Bader that it never made it to the ground.

Well in all fairness this is sort of moot because, like you say, it never even made it to the grappling portion of things. Bader's "wrestling" certain didn't give him the skills to knock someone out with a punch.

If BJJ is so dominate over wrestling why doesnt it also work at HW? I'm not saying wreslting is better but its alot closer gap than your making it out to be. I mean a top wrestler than can throw a punch is UFC HW champ

Everyone knows he's gay for BJJ. I've just come to recognize it as a personality trait of the lovable pudgy bear known as MMA Scientist.

[Svino]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

As I see the BJJ / Wrestling debate:

1) It happens all the time that a better wrestler controls and beats up a better BJJ guy on the ground.

2) It's also pretty clear that if that gap in submission skill is big enough, wrestler-dude might be looking at a pretty quick sub, making going to the ground at all a bad idea.

3) The catch then is figure out how big a gap is too big.

Certainly even an elite wrestler is no good on the ground against a submission guy without some submission training. Lesnar seemed to cross the threshold between his first and second fights with Mir. Lindland certainly didn't have enough submission defense to stand up to Jacare, but might Jake Shields? I'd be curious to find out.

In general though, at the UFC level, I have come to the point where I consider the "Striking and BJJ" template to be a poor matchup against a wrestler, unless they have either a huge advantage in jiu-jitsu (Maia), or very good takedown defense / ability to get up (Machida, Penn).

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Ok then lets put Lesnar in there with Werdum He's 240 instead of Gracie and the 2009 ADCC champ.Either way Lesnar wins.

This is where we disagree. Lesnar has already been subbed once by Mir who is inferior to Werdum in teh grappling department. Lesnar might win an MMA match, I don't know... but he definately wouldn't win a grappling match. I am not sure where all the confidence in Lesnar's ground game comes from. He has fought only one fighter that was a submission threat, and he went 1-1. Vera also controlled Mir on the ground. How did he do against Werdum?

Also the ADCC winner doesnt get 100K:...
Even if Lendar won the absolute and over 99KG thats only 50k you think Lesnar is going to waste his time for 50k when he makes 5x+ than that per fight?

Well Lesnar is one of about 3 wrestlers in mma that make more than 50k per fight. Lesnar is not even the best HW wrestler from Minnesota to be fighting... Kole Konrad is. Kole Conrad won it all 2x. Brock won it once. I bet Kole Conrad could use 50 large. He should just go use his all world wrestling to win ADCC.

I already gave you Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie who was a ADCC champ
And somehow Sakuraba-Renzo Gracie doesnt count even though Renzo was also a ADCC champ.If ADCC champs arent elite who is? Sakuraba is a wrestler and beat both of them

I forgot Renzo his weight class. I will give you Renzo and Royler (even though Sakuraba is an evolved "wrestler"), he didn't CONTROL either of them either. Renzo actually had his back when he pulled out the Kimura. http://www.pridedump.com/pride-fight...(round-2).html They are both smaller men too... Royler won ADCC at 145. He is a FW, and could probably be a BW. This is like Faber fighting Rich Franklin or Dan Henderson. Still... he won.

If BJJ is so dominate over wrestling why doesnt it also work at HW? I'm not saying wreslting is better but its alot closer gap than your making it out to be. I mean a top wrestler that can throw a punch is UFC HW champ

To be fair, wrestling is also different at HW. It is like watching a different sport. Anyone that has ever wrestled or done bjj can tell you that it is different for the big boys. I think it is a combination of weight to strenght ratio and the huge weightclass. All I know is that in wrestling, the HWs pummel a lot more and they rarely shoot. They even have modified HW takedowns. Instead of the ankle pick, you do the knee pick. You do a "fatboy double leg" by not shooting all the way to a knee. Basically, once you get underneath, you are screwed.

Its the same way in bjj. Whoever gets the takedow usually wins. HW's can't triangle each other, because the legar aren't as long when compared to the girth (of the leg and the other guy's back). It is just a lot different, and you don't see very many submissions from the HW's. It's a lot harder to sweep a 300 pounder too. Basically, you can't get them off of you. So at heavyweight, the takedown means a lot more. In submission grappling, you can guard pull and no points are scored.

Since I know that Brock could not pass Werdum's guard, I am almost 100% positive that Werdum would beat him on advantages or evetually sweep him. In MMA, Brock would plant him on his back and probably drop short punches and elbows until the clock wound down and most likely beat him.

So I do think HW wrestlers can control HW bjj guys...

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

As I see the BJJ / Wrestling debate:

1) It happens all the time that a better wrestler controls and beats up a better BJJ guy on the ground.

2) It's also pretty clear that if that gap in submission skill is big enough, wrestler-dude might be looking at a pretty quick sub, making going to the ground at all a bad idea.

3) The catch then is figure out how big a gap is too big.

Certainly even an elite wrestler is no good on the ground against a submission guy without some submission training. Lesnar seemed to cross the threshold between his first and second fights with Mir. Lindland certainly didn't have enough submission defense to stand up to Jacare, but might Jake Shields? I'd be curious to find out.

In general though, at the UFC level, I have come to the point where I consider the "Striking and BJJ" template to be a poor matchup against a wrestler, unless they have either a huge advantage in jiu-jitsu (Maia), or very good takedown defense / ability to get up (Machida, Penn).

I think this is the common conception... but still 10 minds have only come up with 2 fights from the 90's where world class grapplers were beaten by wrestlers. Sak beat Renzo and Royler. If it is as common as you say, I would love to hear some examples.

I am not being a wise ass... I genuinely cannot think of any examples. Hughes/Serra was the best example I could come up with.

I do agree that there comes a point where the wrestler can stuff the offense of the bjj guy. I just think the line is much farther out than you guys do. In my opinion, the "wrestlers" that can do it, are also highly skilled submission grapplers. Guys like Randy and Hughes and Sakuraba... I don't think Koscheck, for example, could control Andre Galvao on the ground (I didn't use the obvious example of Marcelo Garcia, because clearly Garcia would submit Koscheck). Or I don't think Rashad (even though he is technically a bjj bb) or Mo could control Braulio or Roger. I know they couldn't.

But Randy, even though he is not as good a wrestler as Mo, I think he might be able to "control" Braulio. Hughes, even though he is not as good a wrestler as Kos, he might be able to control Galvao (though probably not). But Randy and Matt are also good all around grapplers and have some submissions themselves (though there is no way they would be catching a sub). I don't know though, Randy couldn't control Nog or Ricco... he did control Gonzaga though. But that's HW.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

I think this is the common conception... but still 10 minds have only come up with 2 fights from the 90's where world class grapplers were beaten by wrestlers.

I think we need to get away from this idea of "world class" because we can argue who is world class and who is not. What makes a world class BJJ guy? What makes a world class wrestler?

How about just "good" wrestlers vs BJJ guys? I mean, Hermes Franca is known as a "good" BJJ guy. Not only is he himself a blackbelt, but he trains others and hands out blackbelts to those who train under him. But Sherk pushed his shit in for 25 minutes.

Plenty of other examples like that. . .

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 115 discussion/odds

Well I don't know Franca's bjj credentials, I doubt he has any. I think the issue is that if you don't follow bjj, you lump evey blackbelt that Goldberg hyperboles about together.

To me, world class = some one who has competed and done well in international competition (or even national competition if it is Brazil)

Active World class guys:

Pe De Pano
Maia
Monson
Jacare
Roger
Galvao
Shaolin
Vitor Belfort
Ricco Rodriguez
Werdum
Braulio
Bibiano Fernandez
Leites
Rolles
Renzo
Wilson Reis
Rani Yahya
Robert Drysdale
Dean Lister
Gonzaga


There are hundreds more... but this is off the top of my head.