UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

[Luke]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

He's the most accomplished LW of all time.

Japanese MMA.

'Nuff said.

You got to be kidding saying "Japanese MMA nuff said"


Pride was Japanese MMA and every since they closed down there fighters have done nothing but dominate UFC and Strikeforce

The UFC and Strikforce would be nothing without the Japanese Pride fighters .I mean look at the 185 and 205 champs from before Pride and after .

Now the lighter guys is different but to say Japanese MMA is a joke is just wrong

[Svino]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

Japanese MMA.

'Nuff said.

Heh, you got to the point much better than I did.

[zY|]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

No, actually, it doesn't count. It was 5 years ago, 30lbs heavier, and long before Florian developed his Muay Thai and clinching skills or any other skills for that matter to where they are today. So no, it doesn't count. He could knock him out at this point. Everyone said there was no way Cain Valasquez would knock Minotauro out, and look at what happened. When guys get up this way in thier career getting into battle after battle they lose a few things. First is the chin. More likely though is that Kenny bullies Gomi with the clinch for most of the fight, then he uses his elbows and kicks to finish him off.

Kenny could knock Diego out at this point? Or were you referring to Gomi?

And yeah, I'm open to the possibility that Kenny dominates Gomi, but I just don't expect it. He's going to make much more of a fight of it than he's getting credit. You really think Kenny is going to want to bully him in the clinch? It's not like Kenny is a big LW, and his striking is generally more evasive. I would expect him to try and fight like he did against Huerta.

[zY|]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

I think Florian has value, even though there are some big unknowns. Gomi may have a technical wrestling advantage, but I'd guess the fight takes place mostly on the feet, with Florian outstriking him.

I actually think that many of the lightweights that fight/fought in Japan are overrated, in much the same way that the non-Pride leagues produced a lot of overrated heavys in the Sylvia/Arlovski/Buentello/Rothwell era. When there are two different pools of fighters that don't cross much, people tend to assume the leagues are about equal, even if that's not always right. Gomi beat a lot of guys in Pride, but when I look at his resume, it doesn't impress all that much. Even close to his prime, he lost to Hansen, and who were the best guys he beat? Ishida? Sakurai? They're pretty good, but not worth the hype Gomi got. (I don't think Aoki deserves the #2 ranking, either.)

I'd love to be wrong. I always liked Gomi and I think it would be great if he started tearing shit up in the UFC.

Marcus Aurelio, Duane Ludwig, Hayoto Sakurai, Jens Pulver(the only LW to ever beat Penn and the UFC LW champ). Those are just the guys who fought in the UFC. I can keep going with wins over Kawajiri, Azeredo(x2), Jean Silva, Ishida.

I'd say there's plenty of overlap.

As far as Aoki, since just about all rankings are based on accomplishment, Aoki should actually probably be ranked #1. The fact that Penn is a terrible style matchup for him should do nothing to deter his ranking, considering his body of work. Rankings don't mean much to me as I don't care either way, but I'm just saying for the sake of consistency.

Besides, if you wanted you could tear any fighter's record to shreds. Anyone. So I don't see how it's really fair.

[Svino]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

The UFC and Strikforce would be nothing without the Japanese Pride fighters .I mean look at the 185 and 205 champs from before Pride and after .

Now the lighter guys is different but to say Japanese MMA is a joke is just wrong

Yeah, that's just it. It's kind of weird. I think Pride had much better heavys (compare Fedor, Nog, Barnett, Cro Cop to the 4 guys I mentioned above), and middleweights (Little Nog, Shogun, Rampage, Hendo, Wandy). But when you ask what post-Pride successful LWs they had, it's like: ------- [ crickets chirp ] --------

[Ludo]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

Actually you could argue that Pride hasn't dominated the UFC at all. Below is a breakdown of notable Pride fighters who crossed over to the UFC and how they did. I realize alot of them were pitted against each other but bear with me here.

Shogun came from Pride and straight got his ass whooped by Forrest Griffin, then he struggled to beat Coleman. It's only after beating a down and out Liddell and a withering Mark Coleman, and Rampage being booked to fight Rashad after TUF that Shogun got the title shot at all. He loses the fight to Machida in a razor thin and questionable decision. 2-2 since Pride in the UFC, 2-2 vs UFC fighters(as opposed to Pride fighters primarily)

Rampage won the title after beating Eastman due mostly to hype, and for some reason Rampage always had Liddells number. He then goes on to lose to Forrest and then destroy a past prime Wanderlei Silva, and then edge Jardine out. 4-1 since Pride in the UFC, 3-1 against UFC fighters(

Dan Henderson loses his first two fights in the UFC in unification fights to Anderson Silva and Rampage(two guys who fought in Pride, though Silva fought less in Pride than anywhere else). He then goes on to win a close decision to Rich Franklin and then coach TUF before beating Michael Bisping in devastating fashion. Failed contract negotiations brought about his leave of the UFC. 2-2 in the UFC since coming from Pride, 2-1 against UFC fighters

Mark Coleman after returning to the UFC from Pride is matched up with Shogun, seemingly as a rematch from Pride that ended prematurely when Shogun's arm was broken. Coleman gasses early in the second and eventually loses to Shogun. He then fights Stephan Bonnar, winning a decision impressive for a guy his age, only to have whatever small momentum snuffed out by Randy Couture in the fight that should have happened ten years ago. 1-2 in the UFC since Pride, 1-1 against UFC fighters

Wanderlei Silva comes to the UFC and we finally get the dream fight of the ages two years too late with Chuck Liddell. He loses the decision to Chuck but goes on to all but murder Keith Jardine in under a minute. Next up is Rampage, we all saw how that went. He then fights Rich Franklin in a draining catchweight in which he loses a unanimous decision, before fighting and beating Michael Bisping in the same fashion at Middleweight. 2-3 in the UFC since Pride, 2-2 against UFC fighters

Minotauro fights Heath Herring in his first UFC fight, winning by unanimous decision. He is then granted a shot at former champion Tim Sylvia. After a couple rounds of abuse He manages a choke out win over Sylvia. After TUF he and Frank Mir square off for the interim title, in which Frank knocks him out(yeah I know, the staph infection). He rebounds with a win over Randy Couture before losing recently to Cain Valasquez. 3-2 in the UFC, 2-2 against UFC fighters

Heath Herring fights and loses a decision to Jake O'Brien. He then beats Brad Imes(remember the retard strength having farm boy from TUF?) and loses to Minotauro. He beats Chiek Kongo before losing most recently to Brock Lesnar. 2-3 in the UFC since Pride, 2-2 against UFC fighters

Cro Cop's story is one of woes. He comes into the UFC against Eddie Sanchez, looking to have not lost a step at all when he knocks him out with punches. Things take a turn for the worst when Gabriel Gonzaga gives Cro Cop the Cro Cop treatment and knocks him out via head kick. It's clear Cro Cop has lost something when Cheik Kongo beats him in a decision before he takes a hiatus from the UFC to fight in K-1 and Dream. He makes his return against Mustapha Al Turk, winning a piss poor fight due mostly to an eye poke the Ref didn't see. But it's right back down the ladder he goes when Junior Dos Santos puts on a two and a half round clinic on him enroute to a win for Dos Santos. He then fights Anthony Perosh recently for a doctor stoppage TKO. 3-3 in the UFC since Pride, 3-3 against UFC fighters


In conclusion as you can see Prides top fighters have gone 19-18 in the UFC since coming from Pride. 17-14 against UFC fighters. That isn't what I would call domination.

[zY|]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

^^True, not domination but not inferiority either.

Also, you're leaving a few wins out. Rampage is 5-1 in the UFC, you left out Henderson. And Henderson is 3-2 in the UFC, he also beat Palhares. Add in Anderson Silva's 10 wins and we're at 31-18.

[Luke]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

That big of a list and somehow you left out Anderson Silva whos 9-0 against UFC fighters?


Talk about tunnel vision

[Luke]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

And how is Machida considered a "UFC " fighter he didnt even fight in the UFC till AFTER these guys came over from PRIDE

[Ludo]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

Anderson Silva fought five times in Pride, never participated in a tournament, never fought for a title there. He fought more often in Cage Rage and Meca.

My bad on Rampage and Henderson in missing one each. I never said they were inferior. I'm just saying the argument can be made that they didn't dominate. There was nothing superhuman about Pride's fighters. They are no better on the whole than any of the UFC's top fighters were/are is all.

[Svino]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

Interesting breakdown, Ludo. But when I think about Pride vs. UFC, I'm thinking more about comparing the guys who were dominant in Pride with the guys who were dominant in the UFC at the same time, not so much the new blood like Machida, Cain, and JDS. Franklin, Couture, Liddell, and Ortiz would probably be the LHW counterparts to the Pride guys I mentioned. Anderson, let's call "shared property". He did leave Prider earlier.

As for Cro Cop, I think Dana hates him. IMO, he's been given consistently bad matchups (not counting Perosh).

[Ludo]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

How is Lyoto Machida not listed as a UFC fighter when he never fought in Pride? Especially when the only time he comes up on the above listing of fights he's the defending Champion?

[Luke]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

How is Lyoto Machida not listed as a UFC fighter when he never fought in Pride? Especially when the only time he comes up on the above listing of fights he's the defending Champion?

PRIDE wasnt around when Machida made the transition to UFC hows he suppose to fight in it

[Luke]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

Anderson Silva fought five times in Pride, never participated in a tournament, never fought for a title there. He fought more often in Cage Rage and Meca.

My bad on Rampage and Henderson in missing one each. I never said they were inferior. I'm just saying the argument can be made that they didn't dominate. There was nothing superhuman about Pride's fighters. They are no better on the whole than any of the UFC's top fighters were/are is all.

So Anderson Silva is a UFC fighter then right?

[Luke]

Re: UFN 3/31 odds/discussion

Interesting breakdown, Ludo. But when I think about Pride vs. UFC, I'm thinking more about comparing the guys who were dominant in Pride with the guys who were dominant in the UFC at the same time, not so much the new blood like Machida, Cain, and JDS. Franklin, Couture, Liddell, and Ortiz would probably be the LHW counterparts to the Pride guys I mentioned. Anderson, let's call "shared property". He did leave Prider earlier.

As for Cro Cop, I think Dana hates him. IMO, he's been given consistently bad matchups (not counting Perosh).

Yes thats exactly what I mean .You cant compare PRIDE fighters from 4 years ago to UFC fighters that just came around within the last year ,thats just silly


Take a look at the top guys when the Pride fighter came over compared to the top UFC fighters at the time:

Tim Sylvia :he's better than Fedor the Pride Champ? nope

Rich Franklin: he's better than Anderson Silva? nope

Liddell :Hes better than Rampage? nope


Franklin was on a 5 fight win streak ,Liddell was on a 7 fight win streak.These guys looked unbeatable and then the Pride guys came over and beat the shit out of both of them and neither has been the same since


If PRIDE would have ever took on the UFC in a head to head battle they would have destroyed their Champs back then .