UFC 126 Feb 5

[edman5555]

A lot of the guys you listed as non wrestlers actually wrestled a little. Dominic Cruz, I think Brad Pickett wrestled, Brian Bowles maybe.

Dunham did for sure. I am pretty sure Alvarez wrestled as well as gilbert melendez.

Quinton Jackson and Frank Mir both wrestled, even though Frank isn't really that good at it. I heard Forrest was a high school wrestler but that was just from a guy I know.

There are other guys who develope good wrestling bases by working hard at it like GSP. I think that should count as "a wrestler".

[edman5555]

MAchida was also a brazilian Sumo champ.

[edman5555]

I am looking them up as we speak. Gilber melendez was a high school wrestler. 2x state qualifier with a scholarship. He quit school to fight MMA.

Alvarez was a high school wrestler.

Dominick Cruz I know already wrestled high school and a little college.

Evan Dunham wrestled high school.

Brian Bowles is a former wrestler. I'm not sure how far he went with it.

[edman5555]

Somewhere in the area of 30-40 percent of the top 10 is from a wrestling base. Maybe closer to 30 percent.

[MMA_scientist]

A lot of the guys you listed as non wrestlers actually wrestled a little. Dominic Cruz, I think Brad Pickett wrestled, Brian Bowles maybe.

Dunham did for sure. I am pretty sure Alvarez wrestled as well as gilbert melendez.

Quinton Jackson and Frank Mir both wrestled, even though Frank isn't really that good at it. I heard Forrest was a high school wrestler but that was just from a guy I know.

There are other guys who develope good wrestling bases by working hard at it like GSP. I think that should count as "a wrestler".

Yeah, I drew the line at wrestling at least a little in college. None of those guys wrestled in college that I am aware of. I mean, 4 years of HS wrestling is 1 total year of training in wrestling. To count every guy that wrestled in HS, you might as well call every MMA fighter a karate guy, because almost every one of them did some karate or TKD as a kid.

As far as GSP, the point is guys get good at things, it is the individual. GSP has gotten good at takedowns in MMA, but I guarantee you Koscheck would smoke him in a wrestling match. He is a bb in bjj and kyokushin karate. GSP's base is karate, although he uses a mixture of techniques including wrestling and bjj (i consider his ground work to be bjj and his takedowns to be wrestling). The point is the "wrestling is the best base" theory is a myth. Wrestling may actually be less successful as a base than several arts, including having no base at all.

The skills that make someone a good wrestler do not necessarily make them a good grappler or a good mma fighter. Most of the time, your best takedown guys in wrestling are not the same guys that are the best mat wrestlers. But the way the scoring in wrestling works, takedowns are by far teh most important skill. I think the same principle applies to MMA. The skills that make a guy a great wrestler, do not necessarily make him a great fighter. Wrestling is awesome, I love it. I watch it all the time, but I just disagree that there is an inherent advantage for wrestlers in MMA or that wrestling is more successful than other arts. If it is, I think the fact that there are more of them entering the sport can account for any difference.

[edman5555]

Yeah those are good points. I think you are right. BTW, don't apologize for ranting about wrestling. It's always good for us to be doing research.

[MMA_scientist]

Yeah... I think 35% is probably about accurate. But you can go through and find 3 guys in each weightclass that are predominantly kickboxers or bjj players, or judokas too.

If you look at HW,

Wrestling: Cain, Brock, Carwin.
BJJ: Nog, Werdum, Bigofoot
Sambo/Judo: Fedor
Boxing/kickboxing: Overeem, Dos Santos

You could probably put Mir in the kickboxing, wrestling or bjj category (FWIW Mir was actually a State champion wrestler in HS).
The breakdowns are going to be different in different weighclasses and at different points in history... but I think it is pretty representative.

I would be interested in the top 25 breakdowns, since these top 10's sort of suck anyway. I bet that the numbers hold true. It is probably 40% top control and takedown defense guys (GSP style), and 40% strikers who dare you to take them down (Diaz style), and 20% one dimensional guys who are fucked if they can't keep the fight in their wheelhouse (Maia, Barry style).

Screw it. I am going to make it my project and start a thread on it.

[edman5555]

I am considering a bet on Ellenberger. I was thinking about it before, I threw him in my big parlays project/scheme. After hearing our friend talk about it I thought about it some more. I've read a little about Rocha, from my memory ( I was most likely drinking)

He started training BJJ in Brazil as a kid. He cleaned the mats for his master, seems like he had a real close relationship/almost lived there type of deal. He won a lot of regional tournaments in Brazil. I don't think he was any kind of champ, maybe a state champ. He moved to Germany quite a few years ago to instruct BJJ. I think he was living there training BJJ for a long time before he really got into MMA. I think all his MMA fights were in Germany, which may be why he was able to submit everyone so easily. How many people are doing BJJ in Germany? He subbed Kris Mccray who was doing somewhat ok on the ground with him for a while, IMO Mccray was trying to battle him on the ground the whole fight/maintain top position. Mccray was also choked out by Court McGee( Rear Naked). Mccray is from Renzo gracie fight team.

My thoughts: We haven't seen much of Rocha so it's hard to draw concrete conclusions. I think all of his competition hasn't been operating at that high of a level in BJJ though McCray did train out of Renzo Gracie's fight team. I may have to do some more research on that when I get home. I will look up all Rochas opponents on sherdog and see what I can find. Ellenbergers wrestling is really good though, I would think he could force a standup fight if he wants to. He has never been subbed before either. His hands are extremely heavy, so if he forces the standup he should have the advantage. Ellenberger is also much more experienced. I think he is a good bet but I'd like to read more about it..

[edman5555]

Yeah... I think 35% is probably about accurate. But you can go through and find 3 guys in each weightclass that are predominantly kickboxers or bjj players, or judokas too.

If you look at HW,

Wrestling: Cain, Brock, Carwin.
BJJ: Nog, Werdum, Bigofoot
Sambo/Judo: Fedor
Boxing/kickboxing: Overeem, Dos Santos

You could probably put Mir in the kickboxing, wrestling or bjj category (FWIW Mir was actually a State champion wrestler in HS).
The breakdowns are going to be different in different weighclasses and at different points in history... but I think it is pretty representative.

I would be interested in the top 25 breakdowns, since these top 10's sort of suck anyway. I bet that the numbers hold true. It is probably 40% top control and takedown defense guys (GSP style), and 40% strikers who dare you to take them down (Diaz style), and 20% one dimensional guys who are fucked if they can't keep the fight in their wheelhouse (Maia, Barry style).

Screw it. I am going to make it my project and start a thread on it.

Great Idea. We can all add in little bits of research every now and then. Keep it going for as long as we can.

[MMA_scientist]

Ellenberger is obviously the favorite... and I do think he will win. We don't know much about Rocha, and that is the reason I didn't bet it. But we do know that Ellenberger is a top level talent, and he can probably force a standup fight. He has good hands, and that should be his strategy... he will probably win, but I was just saying why I am not betting it.

[edman5555]

I am thinking about taking Ellenberger. IF I do it will probably be in a parlay with J jones/ maybe even Miguel Torres.

[MMA_scientist]

Torres is a lock.

Torres demotes self to brown belt, says he needs to learn to wrestle (though he made it all the way to #1 without ever scoring a takedown or stuffing one)

http://www.ufc.com/news/Meet-Miguel-Torres-The-Wrestler

37 professional victories despite no wrestling skill whatsoever.

Arguably the worst wrestler that elite MMA had to offer from the year 2000 all the way through 2010.

Here’s the stone-cold truth: We will probably never see another like Miguel Angel Torres again in our lifetime. A legendary fighter who defied conventional wisdom, ignored the wrestling aspect of his sport altogether, and still won a world title and ruled the bantamweight division for the better part of a decade.

So I ask him, “Miguel, in 40 bouts, when’s the last time you took somebody down in a live fight?”

“Never,” he responds.

That’s right -- zero takedowns. And it’s not like the Purdue University graduate’s takedown defense was much better. UFC.com statistics show that Torres has stuffed a paltry 11 percent of his opponents’ takedowns, which might be a record low for a seasoned veteran in the organization.

The reason for Torres’ incessant neglect was simple: He held a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt under the late great Carlson Gracie. He owned sick submission skills. Torres didn’t bother to shoot on foes because he could beat every one up standing (thanks in part to a massively long reach). And he didn’t concern himself with stopping takedowns because he was far superior to his adversaries on the ground, too. Take down Torres? Please. You were doing the guy a favor.

But along came Joseph Benavidez, a former state champion wrestler who single-handedly changed Miguel Torres’ life, changed the way Miguel Torres trains, changed Miguel Torres’ antagonistic relationship with wrestling. The Team Alpha Male fighter took Torres down at will in their battle last March and bloodied the East Chicagoan with a vicious elbow that literally required hundreds of stitches and the services of a plastic surgeon. Benavidez showed Torres the light, so to speak.

“I had to branch out,” said the 30-year-old Torres. “I had to learn how to wrestle.”

Indeed, the 135-pound weight class has been all but hijacked by high-caliber wrestlers who have added deft striking skills to round out their games. UFC champ Dominick Cruz fits the description, as does former kingpin Urijah Faber, top contender Scott Jorgensen and Japanese sensation Norifumi “Kid” Yamamoto. Torres’ next opponent, Chuck Liddell teammate Antonio Banuelos, is another fighter who hails from the evolved wrestler ilk.

“I always knew we’d fight sometime and it just happens to be for my UFC debut,” said Torres, who meets Banuelos this Saturday night to jumpstart the UFC 126 main card.

“He’s a tough guy and he likes to throw big combinations. He’s got good takedowns and good ground-and-pound. He trains at a great team, ‘The Pit,’ so you know he’s in shape and he’s not going to get tired.”

Six months ago Banuelos would have been a bona fide lock to manhandle Torres in the wrestling department. But after hearing Torres rave on and on about wrestling -- how he’s training with many of the same wrestlers who molded Georges St-Pierre, how he’s added Olympic-style weightlifting and studied lots of wrestling videos – it’s enough to make a man forget the pre-2011 Torres. This “new” Torres, reinvented under widely respected trainer Firas Zahabi, sure sounds transformed.

“I even demoted myself from a black belt to a brown belt,” Torres noted, referring to his rank in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

He proceeded to give the rational for this self-imposed stripping. Zahabi was still ranked as a brown belt several months ago. Torres owned a black belt, an honor he had held for years.

“I can’t be a black belt and he’s a brown belt,” Torres explained. “I did it out of respect for a guy that I’m training under and call my “master.’”

Master?

“He’s one of the only guys I’ve ever called master,” Torres said.

(Incidentally, John Danaher awarded Zahabi his BJJ black belt on New Year’s Day).

“When Firas feels that I’m ready to get a black belt then I’ll get my black belt from him,” Torres said. “For me to be a complete grappler, to get a real black belt, I have to learn how to wrestle. I have to 100 percent be able to decide whether the fight is going to be standing or on the ground. That’s a part of my game that I’ve ignored for a long time. I thought I could remedy it by doing better jiu-jitsu but the game has changed, it’s totally different. I’m studying wrestling in-depth now.”

This rebirth is happening amid the frigid temperatures and snow-lined streets of Montreal, where Torres has called Zahabi’s basement home for the past two months.

“I’m a hermit. I come up only to eat and take a shower and then go back downstairs,” said Torres, who for the first 10 years of his career trained in Chicago or his hometown, East Chicago, Indiana. “I don’t have my car for the winter so I’m pretty much at the gym or (Firas’) house. I just try to keep my eye on the prize. I went back to square one and got away from all of my comforts.”

The charismatic former champ believes that this relative solitude and simplicity will lead him back to his lost throne. It is striking, I must say, how frequently Torres mentions Firas’ name during our interview. Rarely a minute passes without the occurrence, giving the distinct impression that Torres is utterly convinced that the man who helped architect GSP’s ascent will deliver the same impact on his own career.

“During the first month we would have talks until like four or five in the morning,” Torres said. “It was crazy, but he’s a great leader, a great coach and a great mentor. Firas is a great fit.”

Zahabi, he says, has tried to reform him from an all-out brawler into a strategic thinker.

“Firas talked to me about not going in for guts and glory every time,” Torres said. “I’ve always gone out there to out-tough somebody, but just because you’re the toughest doesn’t mean you’re the smartest. The biggest thing I’ve changed is my mentality … I’ve watched a lot of my fights with Firas and he’s showed me a hundred times how every time I go in with a combination I’m going in elbow and shoulder deep with punches and kicks and it’s very dangerous. So he’s trying to clean up my striking.”

Torres began working with Firas last year, two months before his bout against Charlie Valencia, a contest he won handily to break a two-fight losing streak.

“We watched that last fight and it was a huge difference from the other fights that I’ve had,” Torres remarked. “I didn’t get hit at all in my face. I got kicked in my leg two or three times. I just controlled the distance and totally frustrated my opponent. It’s exciting to know that I can win a fight by being smart and not taking damage.”

Such a smooth and one-sided performance meant he didn’t need to show off Torres 3.0. But he expects to continue to impress on Saturday night, and, for anyone wondering – yes, his notorious mullet will once again be in full effect inside the Octagon.

“It’s a long time coming. From watching the first UFC with Royce Gracie to actually being able to call myself a UFC fighter, it’s a great honor,” Torres said. “The most important thing is to get back on track with my fighting career, especially now that my weight class is in the UFC now.

“I made a whole new family out here in Montreal. If I wouldn’t have lost that fight to Benavidez then I would have been training somewhere else. So everything happens for a reason. My mind, my heart and my body are in the right place now. I’m chasing a dream. I want to be a UFC champ and I know I can achieve that. I expect big things in the next couple of years.”

[SPX]

Pretty interesting article. I did not realize he's never take anyone down and has such a shitty rate of stuffing takedowns.

I wonder how much his skills will have improved in just a few months, though. Aren't you the one, Scientist, who is always saying that you can't really learn to wrestle in a short period of time (a la our discussion on Barry and his 6 months of wrestling training).

[MMA_scientist]

Yeah. It is going to take a while to get really proficient at stuffing takedowns, usually. But then again, he has been grappling with takedowns for a long time, so the recognition of the shot and the timing should already be there. IMO that is the most difficult thing. Most guys don't see the shot coming until it is too late... he already has the hips, and he is exaggerating about never sprawling. I recall him sprawling to that rnc grip guillotine the very first time I ever saw him fight.

But yeah, he is not going to turn into Benevidez overnight... but I bet he can stuff Banuelos a few times.

[MMA_scientist]

it is not really a new idea... the old guys could all wrestle.



From left: Rolls, Carlinhos, Rickson