Strikeforce's 2011 Heavyweight Grand-Prix

[SPX]

Apples and oranges I think. Writing a book does not entail rigorous physical training and serious health risk by nature. If anything I think it would be more closely related to any other sport. If you are contracted by a sports team for so many years they cannot force you to play if you announce your retirement.

Well maybe I'm wrong.

But I don't think it's illogical to assume that Strikeforce would have some form of legal recourse for a fighter not fulfilling a contract, when in other businesses that shit doesn't fly. Usually that's the point of the contract: To get what it is the other party has agreed to and to have some legal leverage to make sure it happens just as it's written down.

And I don't know about other sports. Other than a little basketball, MMA is all I watch.

[Luke]

Well maybe I'm wrong.

But I don't think it's illogical to assume that Strikeforce would have some form of legal recourse for a fighter not fulfilling a contract, when in other businesses that shit doesn't fly. Usually that's the point of the contract: To get what it is the other party has agreed to and to have some legal leverage to make sure it happens just as it's written down.

And I don't know about other sports. Other than a little basketball, MMA is all I watch.

Contracts in the sports world and contracts in the business world are different is all . Any athlete in any sport, not just fighting, is able to retire whenever they want even if they're under contract .

[zY|]

What's illogical is thinking that there is legal leverage to force someone into being punched in the face.

[Svino]

I'm not really buying the whole "new breed of heavyweight" thing. I think it's mostly that the last generation got old. Cain is a possible exception; I could imagine him truly becoming the next Fedor, but he still has to prove it. I'm more skeptical about Overeem and even more about JDS. Lesnar and Carwin are pretty good, but they have also shown some big weaknesses.

[edman5555]

Well there is a new breed of heavyweight in the sense that they are all much much bigger. The old heavyweights aren't the same size as todays heavyweights.

[zY|]

Well there is a new breed of heavyweight in the sense that they are all much much bigger. The old heavyweights aren't the same size as todays heavyweights.

You mean you don't remember the old big HWs because they ended up not so great and faded out. Do you remember when Wes Sims and Gan McGee were the "new breed" of HW? What a joke.

And right now, the "new breed", it's like 3 guys. Smaller more skilled HWs like Cain and JDS would beat them all, anyway, so who cares?

Second verse, same as the first.

[edman5555]

You mean you don't remember the old big HWs because they ended up not so great and faded out. Do you remember when Wes Sims and Gan McGee were the "new breed" of HW? What a joke.

And right now, the "new breed", it's like 3 guys. Smaller more skilled HWs like Cain and JDS would beat them all, anyway, so who cares?

Second verse, same as the first.

Yes exactly, the old big HWs weren't any good. The skilled guys were much smaller. Cro cop(220-230), Fedor(225-230), Big nog (235). There were obv some guys around 240-250(barnett, heath herring) but not that many.


How can you say the heavyweights aren't getting bigger? Guys are cutting to make 265 now (Lesnar, Carwin, Bigfoot Silva). Even Cain and Junior both weigh in around 245. Beyond that there are a lot of guys weighing in around 250-265 that are good. Obviously fighters are getting bigger. We just witnessed that last night. You have to be joking right? The best heavyweight of all time just got beat by a guy named "BIGFOOT". There couldn't be a better example than that.

[Svino]

Well there is a new breed of heavyweight in the sense that they are all much much bigger.

Except they aren't. Cain, JDS, and Werdum have at most 20 lbs on the Fedor / Nog / Cro-Cop generation.

[edman5555]

Except they aren't. Cain, JDS, and Werdum have at most 20 lbs on the Fedor / Nog / Cro-Cop generation.

Yeah that's bigger. 20 pounds isn't nothing. Then you also have to count the guys that are 250 plus. There weren't really any guys at all that were 250+ and good back in the old generations heyday. There are quite a few now.

[Svino]

Yeah, I won't deny that the HW division as a whole has crept up a little in size, but I can't see it as a "this generation is much better than the last generation" thing.

If you look at fights in the HW division today, size is not a good predictor of performance. (When I see a Shane Carwin whose best round really is the 5th, I may change my mind.)

[zY|]

Yes exactly, the old big HWs weren't any good. The skilled guys were much smaller. Cro cop(220-230), Fedor(225-230), Big nog (235). There were obv some guys around 240-250(barnett, heath herring) but not that many.


How can you say the heavyweights aren't getting bigger? Guys are cutting to make 265 now (Lesnar, Carwin, Bigfoot Silva). Even Cain and Junior both weigh in around 245. Beyond that there are a lot of guys weighing in around 250-265 that are good. Obviously fighters are getting bigger. We just witnessed that last night. You have to be joking right? The best heavyweight of all time just got beat by a guy named "BIGFOOT". There couldn't be a better example than that.

Because it's just not true. There have always been huge guys in the sport. Lesnar is essentially Mark Kerr 2.0, and Carwin and Rogers are like 2010 versions of Paul Varelans. Hell, Bob Sapp fought Nogueira at like 375 pounds almost 10 years ago. Tim Sylvia was 6'8", cutting to 265 and champion 7 years ago. Pedro Rizzo was 245. Frank Mir was 250ish 8 years ago. Ricco Rodriguez was like 250 and champion. So was Josh Barnett. This is nothing new. Yet would you be really surprised if a guy like Jon Jones threw them all on their head? I wouldn't bat an eye. Big HWs are clumsy and unskilled. Who cares.

And Fedor didn't lose because Bigfoot is big. He lost because his defensive grappling was terrible and he had zero gameplan.

[zY|]

If you look at fights in the HW division today, size is not a good predictor of performance.

Exactly. And this is really the only thing that matters.

[edman5555]

Yeah, I won't deny that the HW division as a whole has crept up a little in size, but I can't see it as a "this generation is much better than the last generation" thing.

If you look at fights in the HW division today, size is not a good predictor of performance. (When I see a Shane Carwin whose best round really is the 5th, I may change my mind.)

Well I think your misunderstanding me a little bit. I'm not saying Shane Carwin is better than Fedor/Cro cop/Big Nog but I think he would have a good chance of beating all of them. The main reason is he is so god damn big. He weighs about 280 pounds. He doesn't have to be as skilled as them. He can be 70% their skill level. He makes up for the rest with size. Back in the day, there wasn't anyone that was 280 pounds AND pretty good skillwise. Shane Carwin = Pretty good skillwise.

[Svino]

I do think Bigfoot's size helped him quite a bit with his top control of Fedor and his ability to do damage from mount. Fedor has never had to deal with someone of that size and skill on the ground.

[edman5555]

Because it's just not true. There have always been huge guys in the sport. Lesnar is essentially Mark Kerr 2.0, and Carwin and Rogers are like 2010 versions of Paul Varelans. Hell, Bob Sapp fought Nogueira at like 375 pounds almost 10 years ago. Tim Sylvia was 6'8", cutting to 265 and champion 7 years ago. Pedro Rizzo was 245. Frank Mir was 250ish 8 years ago. Ricco Rodriguez was like 250 and champion. So was Josh Barnett. This is nothing new. Yet would you be really surprised if a guy like Jon Jones threw them all on their head? I wouldn't bat an eye. Big HWs are clumsy and unskilled. Who cares.

And Fedor didn't lose because Bigfoot is big. He lost because his defensive grappling was terrible and he had zero gameplan.

Okay some of what your saying makes sense to me but Fedor got beat last night because he had a 280 pound BJJ Black belt on top of him. If Bigfoot weighed 230 I don't think that fight would of went that way. I can't say what his gameplan was because I don't know.