Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hype

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

Shogun's BJJ is the best part of his game.

That's why he submits so many people.

SPX

LOL you're as dumb as he is.

[Luke]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

^^^^LOL I just thought it was funny .SPX doesnt come up with many split second,clever reponses and this one cracked me up

[SPX]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

Right because BJJ = submissions only, right? That's as dumb as saying BJ Penn's ground game sucks because he only gets RNCs.

You've only seen his UFC fights haven't you? He's taken down every fighter he's ever fought. He only stood with Machida because he couldn't get him down. Shogun is a ground fighter. He only has one submission because he chooses to get position and pound motherfuckers' faces in. This man omoplata'd Ricardo Arona.

I think of that more as wrestling ability, although I suppose it crosses over.

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

^^^^LOL I just thought it was funny .SPX doesnt come up with many split second,clever reponses and this one cracked me up

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

Right because BJJ = submissions only, right? That's as dumb as saying BJ Penn's ground game sucks because he only gets RNCs.

You've only seen his UFC fights haven't you? He's taken down every fighter he's ever fought. He only stood with Machida because he couldn't get him down. Shogun is a ground fighter. He only has one submission because he chooses to get position and pound motherfuckers' faces in. This man omoplata'd Ricardo Arona.

I think of that more as wrestling ability, although I suppose it crosses over.

You ever notice that the super elite grapplers don't ever give up position? Watch BJ Penn. Once he passes your guard it's game over. BJJ is more than just wildly going for submissions. There's a reason that the phrase 'position before submission' is almost a cliche in BJJ.

I'm not saying Shogun is that good but he's extremely dynamic and fearless on the ground. I could see him sweeping anyone in the LHW division and pounding their face through the mat.

[SPX]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

You ever notice that the super elite grapplers don't ever give up position? Watch BJ Penn. Once he passes your guard it's game over. BJJ is more than just wildly going for submissions. There's a reason that the phrase 'position before submission' is almost a cliche in BJJ.

Like I said, obviously there's a lot of "wrestling" involved. But for the sake of MMA discussion, when people discuss BJJ they're usually talking about submissions. When they talk about wrestling, they're talking about a fighter's ability to grapple for position.

I'm not saying Shogun is that good but he's extremely dynamic and fearless on the ground. I could see him sweeping anyone in the LHW division and pounding their face through the mat.

You said it was the best part of his game. If he's actually not that good, then what level is his striking at?

Also, dare I say it that it could be possible that the competition in the UFC is stiffer than what he was facing in Pride so he's not going to be able to do the same things to the fighters he's facing today.

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

Like I said, obviously there's a lot of "wrestling" involved. But for the sake of MMA discussion, when people discuss BJJ they're usually talking about submissions. When they talk about wrestling, they're talking about a fighter's ability to grapple for position.

What people? Troll threads in the HWs? Seriously, I've never gotten the notion that control = wrestling and submissions = BJJ. It's just not that simple.

You said it was the best part of his game. If he's actually not that good, then what level is his striking at?

Also, dare I say it that it could be possible that the competition in the UFC is stiffer than what he was facing in Pride so he's not going to be able to do the same things to the fighters he's facing today.

By 'not that good', I mean not as good as a guy like Penn.

Your blanket statement about Pride doesn't work. Come with some nuance, homie.

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

I'm probably articulating this really shitty, but goddamnit, I know what I mean.

[SPX]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

What people? Troll threads in the HWs? Seriously, I've never gotten the notion that control = wrestling and submissions = BJJ. It's just not that simple.

I think it's just accepted terminology. I 'm not saying it's "that simple" but it keeps conversation more clear.

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

What people? Troll threads in the HWs? Seriously, I've never gotten the notion that control = wrestling and submissions = BJJ. It's just not that simple.

I think it's just accepted terminology. I 'm not saying it's "that simple" but it keeps conversation more clear.

It may be accepted terminology in your own head, but that's not the way I see it at all. If someone is a BJJ fighter I'm not going to say he's a great wrestler because he has smothering top control. That's asinine. And then what do you consider guard passing if BJJ is just submissions?

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

If you want to understand bjj for your mma wagering, go look at Saulo Ribeiro's "Jiu Jitsu University" book. That is pretty much the best book on bjj technique IMO.

It is about 250 pages, and the last 10 or 12 are submissions.

Submissions are the end result of control. There are really only about 5 high percentage submissions without the gi (triangle, arm bar, guilliotine, kimura, RNC). BJJ is about control as much or more than the sub. Saying bjj is only submissions is like saying wrestling is about pinning combinations only. It is the goal, but actual pinning combinations are a small part of wrestling. Same with bjj. Submissions are probably 3% of the bjj curriculum. Most of practice is about small things like side control maintenance, escapes, posture control...

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

I knew ^^ that guy would be able to say it better.

[SPX]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

I'm not saying that BJJ was only submissions. I'm saying that when people talk about someone's BJJ they're usually talking about their ability to submit people. When they talk about their wrestling, they're usually talking about their ability to move.

When someone talks about shooting double-legs, they almost always refer to that as that fighter's "wrestling." But Judo has double-legs, too.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

[zY|]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

I'm not saying that BJJ was only submissions. I'm saying that when people talk about someone's BJJ they're usually talking about their ability to submit people. When they talk about their wrestling, they're usually talking about their ability to move.

When someone talks about shooting double-legs, they almost always refer to that as that fighter's "wrestling." But Judo has double-legs, too.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

So because people say wrong shit and make unnuanced oversimplifications all the time means I have to as well? I don't even know how else you would say what my point was. Shogun uses his ground game to leverage positions for head pounding. I'm not going to call him a wrestler because that's not what he does.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: Despite Broken Face, Vera Still Doesn't Buy the Jones Hy

^^ you can really tell a difference between someone who learned their top control doing bjj as opposed to wrestling. If you look at GSP, most people consider him a wrestler (though he trained bjj first)... His top control is total bjj style: erect posture, elbows tucked. Same with BJ. But then you look at a guy like Sonnen or Rashad and they can hold you down too... but the top control is all wrestling style... weigh forward, driving the hips in. You see wrestlers with their hands up around the head a lot. You rarely see a bjj guy reaching for the head from inside the guard unless he is resetting. It is just different... I think the bjj guys sit up more to defend subs and not get their posture controlled, and that sometimes give the guy on bottom space to stand up. The wrestlers keep driving in all the time... so they sometimes keep the guy down better... but they also can't pass like that and they are more open to submissions.