WEC 52

[MMA_scientist]

Re: WEC 52

^^ I agree... I was just saying the submission attempts were control on the ground, because Mendes had to defend them. He wasn't pulling his arms out of armbars, but his posture was broken and he couldn't move. I see it as control, nothing more... unless it is an obvious close call.

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

^^ I agree... I was just saying the submission attempts were control on the ground, because Mendes had to defend them. He wasn't pulling his arms out of armbars, but his posture was broken and he couldn't move. I see it as control, nothing more... unless it is an obvious close call.

I think that was cancelled out by Mendes being on top, but we know how you feel about torsos and what not.

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

I think you guys think that a "submission attempt" has to be a full blow slapped on triangle. The fact is, even though I despise rubber guard play, and dont' like Vasquez, I can see that Mendes was frozen because, had he moved, he would have been in a triangle/omoplata. His arms are pinned to Vasquez's hips, trying to hold him in place... He was controlling him. I don't see how that is any different than pinning a guy.

I don't understand how you can look at round 1 of that fight and think Vasquez was not in charge of what was happening.

As for who agrees with who, I said it is a flaw in the scoring. Given the scoring we have, Mendes won. But there are plenty of people who think Vasquez won at least a round. All 4 of your expert writers on SD gave rd 1 to Javier. There were several threads on SD saying Vasquez won at least round 1.

I never said Vasquez won the fight. I said he won rd 1 clearly to me, and could have been given rd 2. I think 29-28 Mendes is right... but 29-28 Vasquez would not have been wrong IMO.

LOL, first I never said that Javi lost all 3 rounds, I said i would have made rnd 1 a 10-10. As for the threads? i can not remember the last time I jumped into those SD threads. But you knock yourself out. You keep the company with all your knowledgeable friends in there. 30-27 or 29-28 for Mendes is fine...29-28 for Javi. is a blind mans judging. Just my undeducated opinion.

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

I think you guys think that a "submission attempt" has to be a full blow slapped on triangle. The fact is, even though I despise rubber guard play, and dont' like Vasquez, I can see that Mendes was frozen because, had he moved, he would have been in a triangle/omoplata. His arms are pinned to Vasquez's hips, trying to hold him in place... He was controlling him. I don't see how that is any different than pinning a guy.

I don't understand how you can look at round 1 of that fight and think Vasquez was not in charge of what was happening.

As for who agrees with who, I said it is a flaw in the scoring. Given the scoring we have, Mendes won. But there are plenty of people who think Vasquez won at least a round. All 4 of your expert writers on SD gave rd 1 to Javier. There were several threads on SD saying Vasquez won at least round 1.

I never said Vasquez won the fight. I said he won rd 1 clearly to me, and could have been given rd 2. I think 29-28 Mendes is right... but 29-28 Vasquez would not have been wrong IMO.

Bottom line, he did move. Everytime he popped out and basically threw a punch or elbow. Same thing GSP did to BJ when he used his rubber gaurd in their second fight.

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

Scientist, i really am doing my best to see it your way, but I just can not. but usually when I am in the HUGE minority in my opinion, I usually try to see why I am in that BIG minority. And I usually either find that I can at least see the other sides opinion as very valid or I see that my opinion is somehow clouded through my own experiences. Maybe your pure BJJ love is just really starting to cloud your judgements when it comes to these fights.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: WEC 52

I think that was cancelled out by Mendes being on top, but we know how you feel about torsos and what not.

I just don't see what bearing it has on who is winning or even controlling... it is arbitrary. You get credit for the takedown. But saying he winning just because he is on top, its just wrong. Its like saying the guy in the clinch is winning because has an overhook or an underhook... they are the same... some guys like the overhook, some guys like the underhook. But one is not a better position than the other.

BUt we have been through this...

We disagree and you guys have made me hate Mendes even more now.

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

We disagree and you guys have made me hate Mendes even more now.

LOL

[MMA_scientist]

Re: WEC 52

Scientist, i really am doing my best to see it your way, but I just can not. but usually when I am in the HUGE minority in my opinion, I usually try to see why I am in that BIG minority. And I usually either find that I can at least see the other sides opinion as very valid or I see that my opinion is somehow clouded through my own experiences. Maybe your pure BJJ love is just really starting to cloud your judgements when it comes to these fights.

Oh, I understand why I am in the minority, and I totally understand your opinion and position. And based on the way the sport is scored, you are right. I just think it is scored wrong.

I make my my money by being in the minority. I can separate what I think is correct, from what actually is. Had I bet on the fight, I would have bet on Mendes to do just what he did, and the judges to do just what they do.

I understand that in MMA, Mendes won. I just think the MMA scoring is wrong. If we take all of the punches out of the equation and we were just looking at who was controlling the action... Javier was controlling the ground for the most part, in my view. He would have lost a bjj match too though (because of the takdowns).

I just think that this idea that the guy on top is winning is just totally wrong and arbitrary. I understand that this is not how most people are going to see it, and I don't bet on people seeing it my way.


My solution: allow upkicks to downed opponents. Such a stupid advantage for lnp stylists. Bring the upkick back and we don't need a scoring change. I mean, do you think Sonnen would be able to pin Silva for 23 minutes if Silva was alllowed to kick him?

[Luke]

Re: WEC 52

I think Vasquez won all 3 rounds

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

Scientist, i really am doing my best to see it your way, but I just can not. but usually when I am in the HUGE minority in my opinion, I usually try to see why I am in that BIG minority. And I usually either find that I can at least see the other sides opinion as very valid or I see that my opinion is somehow clouded through my own experiences. Maybe your pure BJJ love is just really starting to cloud your judgements when it comes to these fights.

Oh, I understand why I am in the minority, and I totally understand your opinion and position. And based on the way the sport is scored, you are right. I just think it is scored wrong.

I make my my money by being in the minority. I can separate what I think is correct, from what actually is. Had I bet on the fight, I would have bet on Mendes to do just what he did, and the judges to do just what they do.

I understand that in MMA, Mendes won. I just think the MMA scoring is wrong. If we take all of the punches out of the equation and we were just looking at who was controlling the action... Javier was controlling the ground for the most part, in my view. He would have lost a bjj match too though (because of the takdowns).

I just think that this idea that the guy on top is winning is just totally wrong and arbitrary. I understand that this is not how most people are going to see it, and I don't bet on people seeing it my way.


My solution: allow upkicks to downed opponents. Such a stupid advantage for lnp stylists. Bring the upkick back and we don't need a scoring change. I mean, do you think Sonnen (R-Or) would be able to pin Silva for 23 minutes if Silva was alllowed to kick him?

Allow headbutts also, and Javier would have looked like hamburger. But I do agree about the upkick, it should be allowed to a downed opp. or a standing one.

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

Agreed on upkicks. Let's start a petition.

[zY|]

Re: WEC 52

I thought Javi won the first round. Most of the round was spent on the ground, and Vasquez was the more effective grappler. At least a 10-10. Other 2 rounds were pretty clear Mendes though.

Also, according to Fightmetric, Vasquez actually outstruck Mendes overall. Most were short shots from his back, but make of it what you will.

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/men ... eport.html

I think fightmetric is a completely useless ,almost as bad as compustrike

Why is that? Because they consistently score most fights correctly? I agree. Shitty.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: WEC 52

I agree, headbutts should be allowed. But upkick > headbutt.

I personally wish everything were allowed, but since that won'y happen, I would be happy if they just let you kick and knee downed opponents. It really makes a huge difference IMO... it makes a strong disincentive to shoot in and get stuffed... as of now, being sprawled on is really not that big of a deal, the only real threat is the guillotine.

[Luke]

Re: WEC 52

Why is that? Because they consistently score most fights correctly? I agree. Shitty.

Actually just the opposite .Most close fights they score wrong

[zY|]

Re: WEC 52

Let me ask you this: Should a punch that doesn't land be granted any points? I guess you could say it constitutes "aggression" but beyond that, obviously not. That's how I feel about submission attempts that don't do any sort of actual damage, like cutting off someone's air, hurting a joint, etc.

How you feel about it is irrelevant. The unified rules specifically state 'effective grappling' and 'effective striking' as the main scoring criteria. Submission attempts are effective grappling, missed strikes are not.