2011 Off topic thread(basketball,movies,etc whatever)

[SPX]

Lets also be realistic. Most anti religious types are actually anti-Christian. They have no problem defending a cross sitting in a jar of piss. Yet they were silent when it came to cartoons featuring Muhammad.

The Left in this country has successfully convinced alot of the public that most of their woes are because thier are rich white christians out there trying to keep them down.

That's true. I consider myself on the left regarding some issues, but not really "of" the left. One thing sure is true though, they hate Christians, and they have a very strange and unexplainable soft spot for Muslims.

[Ludo]

Perhaps, but I think here you are now moving to a third distinct argument. (Remember, my point from the beginning was that the commonly-stated rationale differs from the true rationale.) This argument seems to be that while looking at child porn might not directly be a harmful activity, it flags the person as being the sort who might do something harmful (rape kids), and therefore we should use that info to lock these people up for our safety. I think this argument is much closer to the reasoning people are actually going through, but I also have a problem with it on civil-liberties grounds. I realize that most people disagree, but I just don't like the idea of throwing someone in jail on that sort of probability argument.

This is where things become emotional for most people. "Is it worth the risk that this could happen to my child?". It's a very touchy subject because a vast majority of political figures are family men and women. It's absolutely and literally wrong in the truest sense of the law to imprison someone based on the chance that they may one day commit a heinous crime. On the other hand someone looking up "how to make pipe bombs to blow up my school" cannot be ignored if the information is found prior to an event. At some point there must be some kind of preventative measure for the greater good, as muddled a line as it may be.

This debate also brings up the issue, still debated in psychology and sociology, of whether pornography (and prostitution) acts as a fuel for rape, or more like a "substitute good" i.e. a less harmful release for dangerous urges. There is a traditional assertion that these activities fuel attitudes such as disrespect for women that encourage rape, but I have also seen studies that appear to show the "substitute good" effect is real in some cases. It isn't a result many people want to hear.

Unfortunately the debate cannot be solved. Nature vs Nurture will always be a large part of any subject in humanity that the average person cannot quantify themselves actually doing. I can't see Myself ever thinking about a child in that way therefore something is clearly wrong with whoever does, but is it because they were brought up wrong or because they were just born wrong? Society has faced the question numerous times when dealing with high profile mass/multiple/serial murders and rapists and kidnappers and terrorists both foreign and domestic and it won't stop probably ever because the answers both make valid points. Personally to Me it's an anomaly in the human makeup. Just like cancer can just show up in a perfectly healthy person with no family history who exercises and eats well.

I certainly don't think of any rape as being more harmful than murder. (If it were, wouldn't we just put a bullet in the rape victim's head and make it equivalent?) It might be more despicable, in the sense of being a behavior further than something we could ever imagine ourselves doing. But which of the two criteria: "harmfulness" or "despicableness", should determine how our justice system administers punishment? I see it as a fair question for debate.

Perhaps not as harmful directly but much more damaging overall. When someone dies the people around them grieve for a loss and are robbed of being able to spend time with that person ever again. When someone is raped that is one more person suffering each day. Fortunately dead people don't have to live with what happened to them anymore. Also there has to be a look at the motive for each one and the spectrum those motives can have. One can kill someone by accident, involuntarily, voluntarily, in the heat of the moment, in self defense, or in premeditated fashion. You can't accidentally rape someone, especially a child, and I think thats where alot of people distinguish the two crimes.

[SPX]

Spot on. I am with you. I have no problem with NOT knowing. It is the people that believe they have it all figured out that I do not understand. Why would you think that?

Coming from a religious family, I really think it's a form of brainwashing. I can tell you, for instance, that my dad 100% fully without a doubt believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that he will go to heaven because he has "accepted Jesus into his heart." If you challenge him, he'll argue back as best he can and if that doesn't work then he'll fall back on the principle of "having faith." But one thing is for certain, and that's that he totally believes it and doesn't question it, and if something tries to make him question it then a (subconscious, I think) mental block goes up that's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la la la la."

I actually think this is an unconscious self-defense mechanism of the mind. Think about it:

For one, it's something he has invested his ENTIRE life into. It is, in a sense, his life's work, a project that he has been working on for 60 years. It is also the foundation of his marriage. To realize it is all in vain and to have it crumble would be psychologically devastating. He would have to start from scratch and completely rebuild everything.

For another, there is the fear component. Because the Bible says shit like "he who confesses me before men, I will confess before my father in heaven, but he who denies me before men, I will deny before my father in heaven" etc. there is an automatic inclination to flee from anything that might even approach faithlessness. You fear expressing doubt because of the consequences. And really, that's one of the things that makes the Christian God such a dickhead.

I can say that I've been through all of this myself and, even though I am an agnostic, I was a pretty hard core Christian for many years and I'm still not 100% free of the psychological influences of the shit.

[Svino]

That's true. I consider myself on the left regarding some issues, but not really "of" the left. One thing sure is true though, they hate Christians, and they have some very strange and unexplainable soft spot for Muslims.

If I can speak for the Heathen Left, I would say that to the extend that this is true, it's mostly a pushback against the ridiculous popular perception that Muslim = terrorist.

[SPX]

Big fan of Hitchens. One of the few non hypocrites.

What do you mean exactly?

[MMA_scientist]

That's true. I consider myself on the left regarding some issues, but not really "of" the left. One thing sure is true though, they hate Christians, and they have some very strange and unexplainable soft spot for Muslims.

I am socially liberal, even though I am personally very conservative. Like a good libertarian, I think people should be able to do whatever they want. If 2 dudes want to get married, go for it. Its gross, but whatever. Want to do meth all day, knock yourself out... of course, i don't want to be paying the medical bills, so if we are going to legalize all of these things, we can't have nationalized health care.
Abortion is a separate issue though... it is not as simple as benig free to choose badly because it really hinges on whether you think the fetus is a person. I never understood the desire for an abortion, just have the baby and sell it to one of the millions of people who are dying to adopt.

[SPX]

If I can speak for the Heathen Left, I would say that to the extend that this is true, it's mostly a pushback against the ridiculous popular perception that Muslim = terrorist.

The thing is, though, that they even defend the motherfuckers who are flying planes into buildings and blowing up busses by saying "that's what we get for being such a consumerist culture" or some equally insane bullshit.

[sbjj]

If I can speak for the Heathen Left, I would say that to the extend that this is true, it's mostly a pushback against the ridiculous popular perception that Muslim = terrorist.

Actual, I would say that is the unpopular perception. The fact is that the left is not out there screaming about womens rights in Muslim countries. You know...real rights like walking down the street alone or driving. Or not being raped or having acid thrown in her face. No, the left is to busy condemning the religious right for their intolerance on wanting to outlaw abortions.

[Svino]

The thing is, though, that they even defend the motherfuckers who are flying planes into buildings and blowing up busses by saying "that's what we get for being such a consumerist culture" or some equally insane bullshit.

Well, anyone who really thinks that is truly fucked up and no more typical of people on the Left than the hijackers were typical Muslims.

[sbjj]

The thing is, though, that they even defend the motherfuckers who are flying planes into buildings and blowing up busses by saying "that's what we get for being such a consumerist culture" or some equally insane bullshit.

We do in a way have some blame in it though. We do occupy countries and we should not.

think of it this way. Lets say we had a huge catastrophe in America(Earthquake). The Chinese send in a shitload of aid along with a couple of hundred thousand troops. They set up bases and after we are all back up and running. The chinese decide to keep those troops on our soil. What the hell would happen here. You want to see suicide bombings...you aint seen nothing yet.

[Svino]

Actual, I would say that is the unpopular perception. The fact is that the left is not out there screaming about womens rights in Muslim countries. You know...real rights like walking down the street alone or driving. Or not being raped or having acid thrown in her face. No, the left is to busy condemning the religious right for their intolerance on wanting to outlaw abortions.

Well, that really seems more like a "here" vs. "there" issue. Americans care about conditions in America.

[MMA_scientist]

If I can speak for the Heathen Left...

Communist.

[Svino]

Communist.

I'm way too anti-authoritarian to be a good commie.

[Svino]

On the other hand someone looking up "how to make pipe bombs to blow up my school" cannot be ignored if the information is found prior to an event. At some point there must be some kind of preventative measure for the greater good, as muddled a line as it may be.

That may be why I think about the issue the way that I do. I have no kids, and no desire to see child pr0n, but as I said, I'm a curious guy who will look at just about anything. My internet search history would trip alarm bells from here to Langley.

[MMA_scientist]

I'm way too anti-authoritarian to be a good commie.

I hate politics a lot. There was a time when I thought I was going to be a politician... seems like a different life.