BJ Penn Vs Nick Diaz - UFC 137

[Ludo]

Well the way people talk up bj's grappling, you would think if he gets on top of you and builds a base he would be able to keep it. Im pretty sure maia, jacare, roger, werdum, etc. wouldnt have lost back control with hooks in once, let alone twice.

Jacare lost full mount on Smokin' Joe at least twice. Maia lost Munoz' back. Roger is top 3 in the world, so it's not even a fair comparison. Werdum is a guard player, he doesn't bother with taking the back very often because he likes to stay in the best position for the submission without losing postion and mount isn't it. For instance Werdum only has one rear naked choke win in his entire MMA career.

My point is even the best grapplers in the world lose position to lesser grapplers in MMA.

[Vandelay]

maia never had munoz's back with hooks in and losing full mount is understandable when ur trying to punch.

[Svino]

Sometimes I think we overestimate how much better the newer guys are.

I've thought this a lot, too. Yes, the sport is drawing better athletes and is improving, but not quite to the extreme degree I feel a lot of people suggest. It's almost as if this vision of an ever-improving talent base has become part of the MMA community's mythic story of the sport's history and its destiny.

Realistically, the very first crop of UFC fighters may have been pretty weak, but "prime" versions of the second crop of fighters from the late 90's (Couture, Coleman, Kerr, Belfort,...) could still be relevant today.

[Mr. IWS]

My point is even the best grapplers in the world lose position to lesser grapplers in MMA.

I think the fact that they are wearing gloves is the reason that shit happens.

[MMA_scientist]

Realistically, the very first crop of UFC fighters may have been pretty weak, but "prime" versions of the second crop of fighters from the late 90's (Couture, Coleman, Kerr, Belfort,...) could still be relevant today.

Agree. Hell, even Dan Severn is still out there beating these allegedly superior athletes and he is 50 years old. In his prime, he probably would have killed them. Couture was an NCAA runner up, and Coleman and Randleman were champions. The only NCAA champ in the LHW division is Phil Davis. I am sure they would have been just as good today as they were then... then you add in the fact that those guys were getting beaten by guys like Fedor and you have to wonder... maybe prime Fedor would still be able to be dominant champ in the "modern era."

[MMA_scientist]

"I'm not trying to make all these little excuses," Diaz today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com). "If I'd have known the fight was going to be off, I would have [expletive] gone to the press conference, or I would have told somebody, 'Hey, if I don't make it to this stupid [expletive], I'm not fighting.' I think that people would have gotten me there. I think people would have come and gave two [expletive] and gotten me to that press conference."

...

"I didn't even know there was a press conference," Diaz said. "I thought it was some PR thing. People were trying to tell me, 'You're going to do this skit' and that I was going to be a part of some PR skit where I had this part where I was walking through a hall, kind of like that scene Jake Shields did. I was like, 'What the [expletive]? Are you kidding?' So I'm thinking, 'Somebody better come over here and tell me what I'm doing and get me ready to go do it so I don't look like an [expletive].' That's how I feel when you're coming to get me ready for something I'm not ready for."

If everyone else knew for days that there was a press conference, it is entirely on Nick and his camp's shoulders if he truly "did not know" that this was a press conference. It wasn't a super secret meeting in a back room, it was a media event. The UFC can be criticized for many things, but being disorganized in media relations is not on that list.

Diaz goes on to explain why it shouldn't really matter anyway:

"I just don't think it's that big of a deal. We make it like this huge deal, and I'm like, 'If it's such a big deal, then where the hell are all the people and the cameras?' It's not like there's people banging on my door trying to get an interview or something - snap pictures of me. Nobody gives a [expletive]. I can train all day long anywhere and everywhere, and nobody wants to film me. No one wants to come see any of that. I enjoy watching training. I enjoy watching good people sparring in the gym. I've never shut my door to anybody that wanted to come in and watch my training or film or anything like that."

Yes, for us as fans, watching a guy spar and seeing him in camp is interesting. But we're the people who will order a pay-per-view or buy tickets regardless. Your average undecided customer is not seeking out videos of guys sparring, they are enticed into buying tickets or a PPV by things like local media coverage.

The UFC would have eventually "come knocking" to get video of Nick in camp for use promoting the event on Countdown and YouTube, but what mattered at that time was the press conference and getting the media involved in talking about the fight early. The difference between 700,000 and 800,000 PPV buys is over $5,000,000 and press events, when done right, can be that difference. So, yes, it is "that big of a deal."

Diaz is also upset that Georges didn't fight harder to keep Nick in the fight:

"The bottom line is Georges is being a little bitch," Diaz said. "He didn't step up and say anything when the UFC pulled me out of this fight. I understand sometimes you have to do what you're told, but why wouldn't you tell the media you still want to fight me? If I was Georges, I would want to fight the best. I would have asked for the Anderson Silva fight. I would have asked to fight the Strikeforce champ. But he sits there like a robot and doesn't say anything at all, just like he's not going to say anything about me calling him a bitch now. If I saw B.J. Penn walking down the street and called him a bitch, we would be fighting right there on the spot.

"The truth is Georges doesn't want to fight me in the street or in a cage. He knows who I am, and he knows where I came from. I don't have the commitment? I'm younger than him, I have more wins in my career than he does, and I've worked harder to get where I am. He knows the truth, and he didn't say anything and won't say anything because he doesn't want to get his ass whipped by me the same way he got his ass whipped by Jake - the night we went to the press conference and Georges went to the hospital."

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/9/14/2424797/nick-diaz-georges-st-pierre-ufc-137

God I hope Diaz somehow pulls it off against BJ so I can see the GSP fight.

[poopoo333]

I hope Diaz beats BJ and GSP.

[Ludo]

How is it somehow someone else's responsibility to "get him there"? It's not like you carpool to a fucking UFC press conference. It seems like it's all on everyone else. Nick didn't know the shit he was supposed to know, Georges didn't step up and "make" the UFC keep Nick in the fight, etc etc etc. It's such an immature view on things. Like calling GSP a bitch after you didn't show up for the shit you needed to show up for helps the situation any.

[MMA_scientist]

^^ oh he is clearly mentally handicapped. He acts exactly like a junior high bully "GSP won't do shit even though I am calling him a bitch." OK. I bet GSP is terrified.

That is why I want him to succeed.

[sbjj]

How is it somehow someone else's responsibility to "get him there"? It's not like you carpool to a fucking UFC press conference. It seems like it's all on everyone else. Nick didn't know the shit he was supposed to know, Georges didn't step up and "make" the UFC keep Nick in the fight, etc etc etc. It's such an immature view on things. Like calling GSP a bitch after you didn't show up for the shit you needed to show up for helps the situation any.

+1

[sbjj]

Nah, BJ is gonna beat the shit out of him. Then he is gonna go on a 2 week bender and then jump off a freeway overpass screaming "I aint scared homey"

[Ludo]

"I'm not trying to make all these little excuses," Diaz today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com). "If I'd have known the fight was going to be off, I would have [expletive] gone to the press conference, or I would have told somebody, 'Hey, if I don't make it to this stupid [expletive], I'm not fighting.' I think that people would have gotten me there. I think people would have come and gave two [expletive] and gotten me to that press conference."

...

"I didn't even know there was a press conference," Diaz said. "I thought it was some PR thing. People were trying to tell me, 'You're going to do this skit' and that I was going to be a part of some PR skit where I had this part where I was walking through a hall, kind of like that scene Jake Shields did. I was like, 'What the [expletive]? Are you kidding?' So I'm thinking, 'Somebody better come over here and tell me what I'm doing and get me ready to go do it so I don't look like an [expletive].' That's how I feel when you're coming to get me ready for something I'm not ready for."

If everyone else knew for days that there was a press conference, it is entirely on Nick and his camp's shoulders if he truly "did not know" that this was a press conference. It wasn't a super secret meeting in a back room, it was a media event. The UFC can be criticized for many things, but being disorganized in media relations is not on that list.

Diaz goes on to explain why it shouldn't really matter anyway:

"I just don't think it's that big of a deal. We make it like this huge deal, and I'm like, 'If it's such a big deal, then where the hell are all the people and the cameras?' It's not like there's people banging on my door trying to get an interview or something - snap pictures of me. Nobody gives a [expletive]. I can train all day long anywhere and everywhere, and nobody wants to film me. No one wants to come see any of that. I enjoy watching training. I enjoy watching good people sparring in the gym. I've never shut my door to anybody that wanted to come in and watch my training or film or anything like that."

Yes, for us as fans, watching a guy spar and seeing him in camp is interesting. But we're the people who will order a pay-per-view or buy tickets regardless. Your average undecided customer is not seeking out videos of guys sparring, they are enticed into buying tickets or a PPV by things like local media coverage.

The UFC would have eventually "come knocking" to get video of Nick in camp for use promoting the event on Countdown and YouTube, but what mattered at that time was the press conference and getting the media involved in talking about the fight early. The difference between 700,000 and 800,000 PPV buys is over $5,000,000 and press events, when done right, can be that difference. So, yes, it is "that big of a deal."

Diaz is also upset that Georges didn't fight harder to keep Nick in the fight:

"The bottom line is Georges is being a little bitch," Diaz said. "He didn't step up and say anything when the UFC pulled me out of this fight. I understand sometimes you have to do what you're told, but why wouldn't you tell the media you still want to fight me? If I was Georges, I would want to fight the best. I would have asked for the Anderson Silva fight. I would have asked to fight the Strikeforce champ. But he sits there like a robot and doesn't say anything at all, just like he's not going to say anything about me calling him a bitch now. If I saw B.J. Penn walking down the street and called him a bitch, we would be fighting right there on the spot.

"The truth is Georges doesn't want to fight me in the street or in a cage. He knows who I am, and he knows where I came from. I don't have the commitment? I'm younger than him, I have more wins in my career than he does, and I've worked harder to get where I am. He knows the truth, and he didn't say anything and won't say anything because he doesn't want to get his ass whipped by me the same way he got his ass whipped by Jake - the night we went to the press conference and Georges went to the hospital."

[MMA_scientist]

Nah, BJ is gonna beat the shit out of him. Then he is gonna go on a 2 week bender and then jump off a freeway overpass screaming "I aint scared homey"

That kind of denial never dies... he will just claim that the judges screwed him (or the fight was stopped prematurely or whatever).

[sbjj]

Oh yea, no doubt. He had the excuses after Joe F'n riggs and Sherk both beat him. hell, Sherk outstruck him. I have a feeling after the BJ fight people are going to say "Was that the same Diaz in Strikeforce". i think he had some really good style match ups there.

[edman5555]

Yeah Diaz is definetly overrated. He is really good, dont get me wrong. He will just get beat by a lot of UFC fighters. I think a shit-ton of guys can beat him in a 3 rounder, especially guys that can wrestle. A 5 rounder is a different story. Maybe we will get lucky and he will lose to BJ then get some favorable matchups. Anyone that can't take him down and has to fight him for 5 rounds is going to be in for a lot of trouble. That can lead to some more hype on him. Then when he fights some guy that can grind and land td's, that guy will be a big dog. That is my dream anyway.