Official IWS Traditional Martial Arts Thread

[Ludo]

Let me ask you this. . .

How much grappling do you think is necessary for self-defense purposes? I've given this a lot of thought. For instance, I'm interest in TMAs like karate and TKD. And I'm quite possibly about to start a Shotokan class. But as we know, striking arts are only a fraction of the whole.

So for purely self-defense purposes--that is, to know enough to gain the upper hand in most street situations--how much grappling do you really need?

Rudimentary knowledge should be enough for the average street fight against the average "tough guy". The idea for a very long time now has been that if you are proficient in one art when the other guy isn't that's all you need but I can think of several scenarios where that wouldn't be enough. Like that article mentions there is this conceited notion out there among some high level martial artists that their singular art is all they'll ever need and all anyone will ever need in order to defend themselves. The problem here is that many of these arts weren't developed for multiple attacker situations and require many many years of training in order to achieve a level where dealing with multiple attackers could even be possible.

Back to the question: I would think white belt status might be enough, but I'd prefer a status one or two notches up just to be sure. This is of course assuming that there is a sufficient amount of striking knowledge already.

The whole point of self defense is being able to defend yourself when you least expect to have to. Being jumped from behind, ganged up on, or surprised attacked/attacked from a situation that escalated very quickly, etc etc etc. This means you might be placed into situations or positions you hadn't anticipated, like being tackled to the ground or coming up against someone much bigger than yourself.

In my view, I would think that a white belt's knowledge of any of the major grappling arts should be enough, whether it's judo, BJJ, CSW, catch wrestling (not sure if they have belts but you know what I mean), etc.

I would think you'd want a small handful of throws and takedowns, a basic knowledge of reversals, turn overs and sweeps, a few pins, and a few chokes and joint locks. And then drill, drill, drill until performing those techniques are second nature if a fight enters the clinch range.

What it boils down to isn't always necessarily what you know, but how well you know it. Of course that doesn't apply to knowing nothing, but you get the idea. Drilling the shit out of a handful of things can be better than knowing a multitude of things you have to consciously think about(which isn't always a good thing in the heat of the moment).

[SPX]

Like that article mentions there is this conceited notion out there among some high level martial artists that their singular art is all they'll ever need and all anyone will ever need in order to defend themselves.

I'm always taken off guard whenever I encounter someone who actually thinks this, but alas, it does still happen.

The problem here is that many of these arts weren't developed for multiple attacker situations and require many many years of training in order to achieve a level where dealing with multiple attackers could even be possible.

Yeah. I think that multiple attackers is complicated. The fact of the matter is that unless you're noticeably larger, or they are totally shitty fighters, you're going to have a hard time taking on four guys at once regardless of your skills. It's best to just try to extricate yourself from the situation.

Back to the question: I would think white belt status might be enough, but I'd prefer a status one or two notches up just to be sure. This is of course assuming that there is a sufficient amount of striking knowledge already.

Well I would PREFER to be a black belt.

But I guess my question is really this: If someone came to you and said, "I need you to put a self-defense grappling program together for me to complement my striking training. I just want to gain basic proficiency; I'm not trying to win tournaments or anything. Oh, and I also have six months to learn it," then what would you do?

[MMA_scientist]

I would not rely on any hand-to-hand skills to defeat someone like Wisemann or Zak. That is straight up shoot-a-motherfucker territory right there.

A lot of really big guys, I can still move them around standing up. Usually it is when they try to "play takedowns" with me, I can get them. Big guys sometimes don't realize that they really don't need technique, and it often screws them up in the beginning. It is really hard to stop good old fashion brute force momentum, but it is surprising that some guys really can't use it very well. I am surprised all the time by big guys that are timid or can't move very well. But then there are big aggressive guys that are a nightmare. Raw aggression is underrated.

Also, just to mention it, I find the whole idea of training for self defense to be completely ridiculous.

[SPX]

Also, just to mention it, I find the whole idea of training for self defense to be completely ridiculous.

I think you've mentioned that before.

Most people don't walk around with guns or knives on them. So if you're going to get into an altercation, it's usually going to be against someone who is unarmed. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to be able to keep from getting your ass kicked in that situation.

[MMA_scientist]

I think you've mentioned that before.

Most people don't walk around with guns or knives on them. So if you're going to get into an altercation, it's usually going to be against someone who is unarmed. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to be able to keep from getting your ass kicked in that situation.

Because getting your ass kicked is not that big of a deal. Certainly not worth dedicating years of your life to prevent it, maybe. I look at it from an insurance perspective. The cost of the insurance in this case is huge compared to the risk. I spend $70 per month in gym dues (and I get a break as an instructor, many people pay $200 for bjj). $2500 per year just in cash outlay. Then you have the time, years. The injuries, many. Then, add in the fact that if an altercation occurred, there is a pretty good chance I would have won anyway, say 50%. Then add in the fact that even if I lost, I probably would not get seriously hurt. Then add in the fact that just by going to the gym, you actually increase the odds of the very thing you are hoping to prevent - I have come much closer to blows in training than I ever do "on the street", I have actually had to subdue a couple noobs that couldn't handle the heat. There are a shit load of crazy people in bjj and mma. Also, you could run, which would be much better at preventing the altercation. I just think people have a hugely irrational fear of getting their asses kicked, and the amount of time dedicated to worrying about it FAR outweighs the reality.

[SPX]

The insurance analogy makes sense for someone who had no other interest in martial arts or who hated the training.

My perspective is to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I guess "getting your ass kicked isn't that bad" if you're fighting with your friends or just some drunk dude at the bar, but sometimes it's pretty damn bad.

[SPX]

In other news, I got a sword today. Fucking awesome.

[MMA_scientist]

The insurance analogy makes sense for someone who had no other interest in martial arts or who hated the training.

My perspective is to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I guess "getting your ass kicked isn't that bad" if you're fighting with your friends or just some drunk dude at the bar, but sometimes it's pretty damn bad.

There are other benefits to training to be sure. But there are costs as well, mainly injuries.

But even a bad ass kicking doesn't justify the time and cost. Especially since you are only preventing a small percentage of ass kickings, mainly guys your size, with no weapons, and who fight one on one and don't sucker punch you. And even then, nothing is certain, you are just improving your odds. Just seems strange to me.

I like training, I do it for fun and sport. The thing is itself, res ipsa loquitur. Art for the sake of art.

[Ludo]

I don't think it's a fear of getting one's ass kicked so much as knowing for peace of mind that if something were to happen that you had the necessary tools to at least avoid serious or life threatening injury. It's knowing that you can handle some of the things that can happen during human interaction without being a victim by default. Of course not getting your ass kicked is a plus.

What was it that got you into jiu jitsu in the first place, Scientist?

[SPX]

I don't think it's a fear of getting one's ass kicked so much as knowing for peace of mind that if something were to happen that you had the necessary tools to at least avoid serious or life threatening injury. It's knowing that you can handle some of the things that can happen during human interaction without being a victim by default. Of course not getting your ass kicked is a plus.

Speak truth to power.

My feeling exactly.

[edman5555]

Because getting your ass kicked is not that big of a deal. Certainly not worth dedicating years of your life to prevent it, maybe. I look at it from an insurance perspective. The cost of the insurance in this case is huge compared to the risk. I spend $70 per month in gym dues (and I get a break as an instructor, many people pay $200 for bjj). $2500 per year just in cash outlay. Then you have the time, years. The injuries, many. Then, add in the fact that if an altercation occurred, there is a pretty good chance I would have won anyway, say 50%. Then add in the fact that even if I lost, I probably would not get seriously hurt. Then add in the fact that just by going to the gym, you actually increase the odds of the very thing you are hoping to prevent - I have come much closer to blows in training than I ever do "on the street", I have actually had to subdue a couple noobs that couldn't handle the heat. There are a shit load of crazy people in bjj and mma. Also, you could run, which would be much better at preventing the altercation. I just think people have a hugely irrational fear of getting their asses kicked, and the amount of time dedicated to worrying about it FAR outweighs the reality.

I take it as a given that there are a lot of crazies in MMA but are there really that many in BJJ? How often do you see people trying to swing at someone in your gym?

[MMA_scientist]

I take it as a given that there are a lot of crazies in MMA but are there really that many in BJJ? How often do you see people trying to swing at someone in your gym?

Never. But the mma crowd is generally the same crowd as the bjj crowd. They just dont stay. There are alot of guys that come in, say they want to learn the ground to with their chuck lidell like hands.

[SPX]

There are alot of guys that come in, say they want to learn the ground to with their chuck lidell like hands.

This statement makes no sense.

[MMA_scientist]

What was it that got you into jiu jitsu in the first place, Scientist?

Ufc 1 of course. Also, when i was in law school, i was on the club wrestling team and the mma club used the room when we were done. I had done some judo, so i stayed around and asked if i could roll. I went apeshit, i promptly got choked by a guy much smaller. So i started doing mma. After that, i moved and joined a bjj gym. The funny thing is that i am pretty sure i have done more muy thai and kickboxing training than anyone on the board, except luke. I just didnt like it very much, i like grappling.

[MMA_scientist]

This statement makes no sense.

"To go with"... is what i tried to type on my tiny nook keyboard