UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

[Svino]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

I didnt say that it isnt more exciting but thats not the objective of the fighter,its to win the fight.

Maybe Dana should pay fighters double if they finish the fight ,that would motivate fighters to finish their fights

Exactly. I've been saying for a long time that they should pay fighters a "finishing bonus" instead of, or maybe in addition to, a "win bonus". It helps set up the mindset that a loss may be a loss, but a decision win isn't a "real" win. If you want both fighters to work towards an exciting finish, the best way is to make sure the reward structure, in terms of prestige or payment, isn't zero-sum. As Ludo said, this is exactly what the bonus awards are, but I don't think they do a very good job. For one thing, they're least effective at motivating main event fighters, since the bonus money isn't as much compared to their standard check as it is for the undercard fighters.

I hate inactive decision fights, but should be the fighters' job to fight smart, and the job of the MMA promoters and athletic commissions to make sure that effective fighting isn't boring fighting.

[Ludo]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

I saw GSP nearly rip both of a man's arms off in his last fight.

Weird.

You mean the part where he had a mans arm wrenched behind his back while he was pushing his face into the mat and instead of ripping it off or breaking it when there was no tap he let the same guy with a VERY limited ground game escape the hold(s) twice? I remember that too... Kind of ruined the whole "GSP has super powers and is worlds ahead of the rest of his division" thing for Me.

Like I've said before. It's great and all that he can take guys down at will the way he does, but why doesn't he do anything with it? Why didn't he pound Alves out? Why didn't he beat Hardy's face into hamburger to force a stoppage? Why didn't he put Fitch away when he dropped and rocked him with strikes no less than three times in that fight? There is a difference between fighting to win and fighting not to lose.

[zY|]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

I saw GSP nearly rip both of a man's arms off in his last fight.

Weird.

Kind of ruined the whole "GSP has super powers and is worlds ahead of the rest of his division" thing for Me.

Sounds like your problem, not his.

[Luke]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

The incentive with having limited bonuses is to make guys strive for the best performance they can put on in the hopes of locking up one of those three bonuses. If everyone got a bonus for finishing their fight you may as well give them a bonus for making weight, for showing up on time, for coming out when they are supposed to fight. They are fighters, not divas. Exemplery performances gets them paid, not snooze fest fights. It may be a sport but the fans still pay good money to see it. Nobody is going to buy tickets to a show if they think 12 fights are going to go to uncompetitive decision when it shouldn't have gotten that far.

It'd be like if the Yankees played the Brewers every night for two weeks and instead of stealing bases and hitting home runs all the Yankees did was bunt. Eventually people get tired of that shit.

Have you ever fought ? No fighter is going to go all out risking a chance of getting caught for "a chance at a bonus" .If he gets KO'd or subbed trying to finish a fight you know what his bonus is then? Dana cuts him


People pay 2500 a ticket everytime Mayweather fights and the whole undercard sucks usually and Mayweather has stopped one guy in the last 5 years .He makes 25 million per fight not 25k .Thats alot more people paying than the "no one" you said would pay to watch decision after decision.

Boxing fights sometimes has KO bonuses in the contract and it works great to push the action.

If you are paying a fighter to fight than you cant complain if the fight goes to a decision ,if you pay him double his salary to stop someone I guarantee fighters start going for stoppages.Telling fighters you have a 3 in 12 chance at landing a bonus isnt much incentive imo. At least it wouldnt make me take a chance in the third round of a fight that I already had the first two rounds locked up in


WWE fighters get paid for finishing moves UFC fighters dont

[Luke]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Exactly. I've been saying for a long time that they should pay fighters a "finishing bonus" instead of, or maybe in addition to, a "win bonus". It helps set up the mindset that a loss may be a loss, but a decision win isn't a "real" win. If you want both fighters to work towards an exciting finish, the best way is to make sure the reward structure, in terms of prestige or payment, isn't zero-sum. As Ludo said, this is exactly what the bonus awards are, but I don't think they do a very good job. For one thing, they're least effective at motivating main event fighters, since the bonus money isn't as much compared to their standard check as it is for the undercard fighters.

I hate inactive decision fights, but should be the fighters' job to fight smart, and the job of the MMA promoters and athletic commissions to make sure that effective fighting isn't boring fighting.

100% agree with everything you said

[zY|]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Am I the only one that doesn't think decisions are a bad thing?

[SPX]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Have you ever fought ? No fighter is going to go all out risking a chance of getting caught for "a chance at a bonus" .If he gets KO'd or subbed trying to finish a fight you know what his bonus is then? Dana cuts him

You know it's not that cut and dry.

Dana loves guys who go all out and, if you give a good performance, you'll probably stick around even after a loss. Again, Eliot Marshall: 3-1, but fucking boring so he gets cut after a single loss. Guys like Leben and Chris Lytle are safe though, because even if they lose, they do it excitingly.

[SPX]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Am I the only one that doesn't think decisions are a bad thing?

I'm sure no one here boos a fight because it goes to a decision. Ludo brought up Machida/Shogun 1 as an excellent example of an exciting and very interesting fight that went to a decision. But there's something to be said for finishing. That means that YOU decided the winner . . . not a panel of judges.

[zY|]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Have you ever fought ? No fighter is going to go all out risking a chance of getting caught for "a chance at a bonus" .If he gets KO'd or subbed trying to finish a fight you know what his bonus is then? Dana cuts him

You know it's not that cut and dry.

Dana loves guys who go all out and, if you give a good performance, you'll probably stick around even after a loss. Again, Eliot Marshall: 3-1, but fucking boring so he gets cut after a single loss. Guys like Leben and Chris Lytle are safe though, because even if they lose, they do it excitingly.

Keith Jardine has never been in a boring fight. Look where he's at.

Winning is the bottom line.

[zY|]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Am I the only one that doesn't think decisions are a bad thing?

I'm sure no one here boos a fight because it goes to a decision. Ludo brought up Machida/Shogun 1 as an excellent example of an exciting and very interesting fight that went to a decision. But there's something to be said for finishing. That means that YOU decided the winner . . . not a panel of judges.

Ever notice that most FOTY candidates are 5 round decisions?

I like finishes too but I don't care either way. I just like to see who the better fighter was.

[SPX]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Keith Jardine has never been in a boring fight. Look where he's at.

Winning is the bottom line.

He survived 4 losses before being cut, and even then Dana said that "it sucks" to cut him. How many other fighters would get 4 chances?

[SPX]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Ever notice that most FOTY candidates are 5 round decisions?

I like finishes too but I don't care either way. I just like to see who the better fighter was.

I've only got one thing to say:

Jon Fitch:

He keeps on winning, but how many people here are honestly that excited to see him fight?

[Svino]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Have you ever fought ? No fighter is going to go all out risking a chance of getting caught for "a chance at a bonus" .If he gets KO'd or subbed trying to finish a fight you know what his bonus is then? Dana cuts him

You know it's not that cut and dry.

Dana loves guys who go all out and, if you give a good performance, you'll probably stick around even after a loss. Again, Eliot Marshall: 3-1, but fucking boring so he gets cut after a single loss. Guys like Leben and Chris Lytle are safe though, because even if they lose, they do it excitingly.

That's true to a degree, but I actually find that somehow more annoying than if the rewards were built right into the system. Ideally, your prestige as a fighter in the MMA world should have as little as possible to do with how much you can suck up to Dana White. As far as motivating fighters goes, I think something tangible and immediate would probably be more effective.

When it comes to the undercard fighters, I think going for broke for a bonus is actually a good move. For many guys, it's like 10x the size of their standard pay. If you aren't really an amazing prospect, the risk of losing and getting cut is probably worth it.

[Ludo]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Finishing fights is worth more than the chance at a bonus. What happened for Lyoto Machida as soon as he finished someone? Title shot. Jose Aldo gets a shot after destroying 6 dudes in 2 years. Carwin gets a title shot after KO'ing 3 people in the UFC, only one of which was worth a damn. Shogun gets his title shot after beating Mark Coleman and Chuck Liddell because he KO'ed Liddell.

On the flip side Gray Maynard got passed up on his potential title shot because he fought like shit against Nate Diaz. Jon Fitch doesn't get another title shot because he doesn't finish fights on top of GSP beating him decisively.

Would Wanderlei Silva be the legend he is today if he had 20 boring ass decisions in a row over in Pride? Fabricio Werdum isn't known as a great grappler in MMA because he went to decision with Gonzaga, Aleksander Emeliananko, and Alistair Overeem he's known as a great grappler in MMA because he submitted these guys.

Finishes effect every facet of this sport. Titles are fought for and won/lost based on a fighter's ability to finish and or provide an exciting fight. There is nothing wrong with a decision between two evenly matched fighters but there is everything wrong with a fighter who is CLEARLY his opponents superior who does not even try to finish with any seriousness at all. That is after all the measuring stick, is it not?

Mayweather gets the buys he does because he's Boxing's last truly great boxer today in the purist sense of the word. He strikes the hearts of alot of older generation fans who grew up watching pure boxers doing what they do, what Mayweather does.

Jardine got cut because he was losing convincingly and in consecutive fashion. Sorry but when your last win of 6 fights is a Split decision over Brandon Vera almost 2 years ago your likely to get cut no matter who you are. However Jardine is a good example of a fighter who is kept around due to his ability to keep a fight exciting. Winning ultimately IS the bottom line but they kept him through 4 losses out of 5 fights and 3 losses in a row before he fought Hamill. After 4 straight losses they didn't have much choice.

[zY|]

Re: UFC: The Ultimate Fighter 11 Finale - Jun 19th 2010

Ever notice that most FOTY candidates are 5 round decisions?

I like finishes too but I don't care either way. I just like to see who the better fighter was.

I've only got one thing to say:

Jon Fitch:

He keeps on winning, but how many people here are honestly that excited to see him fight?

I like watching Fitch fight.

He dominates everyone, yet is a grinder and can't usually finish inside 3 rounds. Obviously he's not the most exciting, but it's mostly because his fights are never competitive.

This man beat the shit out of Ben Saunders. He was fucked up at the end of their fight.