WEC 52

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

^ he could actually try to hit him or learn how to pass the guard...

Just to be clear the first somersault was stupid. The second one actually served a purpose.

I don't mind guys down and controlling. I never understood the Fitch hate for example, he controls but he is trying to advance.

Mendez strategy is just an exploitation of a flaw in the scoring system.

I didn't think any of this elbows on the ground landed at all. I thought pretty much all of them, which they were few and far between, were ducked by Vasquez. He only landed one shot, but it was a standing.

Completely 100% wrong. He def. landed elbows on the ground, you just missed them. They were not head smashing elbows, but they were decent short elbows. That fight was 3 times as exciting as a typical Fitch fight(who I do not fault). These guys do what they do. it really is up to the guy on the bottom to get his ass up or sub him. I see no scoring system that would give Javier that fight...Unless you use a system where the guy who is bleeding out of his face automatically wins the fight.

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

I thought he was a lot more active than usual and that he did a lot more damage this time than in the past.

100% agree. And this time he was actually dealing with a more dangerous foe. I just think he did fine. The guy obviously has talent and drive. Would really like to see him get his submission game going to complement his GREAT wrestling and obvious improvement in boxing.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: WEC 52

The cut did not happen until the 3rd round.

Just reverse their position on the ground. Javier was controlling teh ground, especially in round 1, but also round 2. Mendes could do nothing but lay there and occasionally throw a little elbow. The entire time he was defending sub attempts and being peppered with annoying little shots to his head. Had the position been reversed and Javier was on top, he would have won the round. Since he was controlling the posture and movement of Mendez, and landing little shots, I see that as no different than laying on top and landing little shots. It is just a lack of knowledge about what they are looking at (the judges). I tend to take the upward or downward orientation of the person's torso out of the equation, since it is totally meaningless. So I look at who was actually in control of whom (Javier was in control on Mendes for at least round 1). And then who is doing more damage (neither did much damage, but had those little punches been from the top, the judges would have counted them).

So, flawed scoring. Mendez won, I knew he won. If the fight was scored as a whole he won too, because he did finally land a shot in round 3 (and I think he dropped him with a punch at some point?)...

The fight was more exciting than a Fitch fight maybe, but that is because Fitch is just a lot better at what he does than Mendes. Mendes gets the fight down and then looks lost, and since Javier has a good guard, it was exciting in parts. But Mendes' plan on the ground is basically to hold em there as far as I can tell.

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

Maybe I need to watch it again but I was actually surprised at how one-sided it was for Mendes. I didn't give Javier a single round. He seemed completely ineffective to me and constantly on the defensive.

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

The cut did not happen until the 3rd round.

Just reverse their position on the ground. Javier was controlling teh ground, especially in round 1, but also round 2. Mendes could do nothing but lay there and occasionally throw a little elbow. The entire time he was defending sub attempts and being peppered with annoying little shots to his head. Had the position been reversed and Javier was on top, he would have won the round. Since he was controlling the posture and movement of Mendez, and landing little shots, I see that as no different than laying on top and landing little shots. It is just a lack of knowledge about what they are looking at (the judges). I tend to take the upward or downward orientation of the person's torso out of the equation, since it is totally meaningless. So I look at who was actually in control of whom (Javier was in control on Mendes for at least round 1). And then who is doing more damage (neither did much damage, but had those little punches been from the top, the judges would have counted them).

So, flawed scoring. Mendez won, I knew he won. If the fight was scored as a whole he won too, because he did finally land a shot in round 3 (and I think he dropped him with a punch at some point?)...

The fight was more exciting than a Fitch fight maybe, but that is because Fitch is just a lot better at what he does than Mendes. Mendes gets the fight down and then looks lost, and since Javier has a good guard, it was exciting in parts. But Mendes' plan on the ground is basically to hold em there as far as I can tell.

What? Javi never even came close. Useing your logic a guy can hold a guy in his gaurd and he is attempting sub attempts. I am just boggled by how you saw this fight. The fact that you give Javier credit for his open hand slaps to Mendes forehead and ears is laughable. If anything, those slaps should have been considered a fucking tap out.

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

Maybe I need to watch it again but I was actually surprised at how one-sided it was for Mendes. I didn't give Javier a single round. He seemed completely ineffective to me and constantly on the defensive.

Do not bother. Pretty much everyone saw it the way you did, including 95% of all the writers. But they all lack knowledge.

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

What? Javi never even came close. Useing your logic a guy can hold a guy in his gaurd and he is attempting sub attempts. I am just boggled by how you saw this fight. The fact that you give Javier credit for his open hand slaps to Mendes forehead and ears is laughable. If anything, those slaps should have been considered a fucking tap out.

LOL.

I think Scientist sees little things in the intricacies of the grappling game and makes too big of a deal about it. Javier did something that made Mendes react, and that constitutes "controlling" the ground game. The bottom line is that regardless of what he did, he did it defensively because he was being attacked. Obviously Mendes had to adjust his offense in response to Javi's defense, but that doesn't change the fact that he was on the offensive.

[zY|]

Re: WEC 52

I thought Javi won the first round. Most of the round was spent on the ground, and Vasquez was the more effective grappler. At least a 10-10. Other 2 rounds were pretty clear Mendes though.

Also, according to Fightmetric, Vasquez actually outstruck Mendes overall. Most were short shots from his back, but make of it what you will.

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/men ... eport.html

[sbjj]

Re: WEC 52

I thought Javi won the first round. Most of the round was spent on the ground, and Vasquez was the more effective grappler. At least a 10-10. Other 2 rounds were pretty clear Mendes though.

Also, according to Fightmetric, Vasquez actually outstruck Mendes overall. Most were short shots from his back, but make of it what you will.

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/men ... eport.html

Were'nt 80% of the strikes that Javi. landed considered jabs? I guess they consider open hand slaps as jabs.

Bottom line, people see fights differently, i respect that.

[zY|]

Re: WEC 52

I thought Javi won the first round. Most of the round was spent on the ground, and Vasquez was the more effective grappler. At least a 10-10. Other 2 rounds were pretty clear Mendes though.

Also, according to Fightmetric, Vasquez actually outstruck Mendes overall. Most were short shots from his back, but make of it what you will.

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/men ... eport.html

Were'nt 80% of the strikes that Javi. landed considered jabs? I guess they consider open hand slaps as jabs.

Bottom line, people see fights differently, i respect that.

Yeah, they only count two types of strikes. 'Significant' strikes and non, but most of Javi's short shots were considered non-significant, yes.

[Luke]

Re: WEC 52

I thought Javi won the first round. Most of the round was spent on the ground, and Vasquez was the more effective grappler. At least a 10-10. Other 2 rounds were pretty clear Mendes though.

Also, according to Fightmetric, Vasquez actually outstruck Mendes overall. Most were short shots from his back, but make of it what you will.

http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/men ... eport.html

I think fightmetric is a completely useless ,almost as bad as compustrike

[Luke]

Re: WEC 52

Urijah Faber: $56,000 (includes $28,000 win bonus)
def. Takeya Mizugaki: $10,000

Chad Mendes: $17,000 ($8,500 win bonus)
def. Javier Vazquez: $11,000

Erik Koch: $8,000 ($4,000 win bonus)
def. Francisco Rivera: $4,000

Joseph Benavidez: $35,000 ($17,500 win bonus)
def. Wagnney Fabiano: $19,000

Demetrious Johnson: $8,000 ($4,000 win bonus)
def. Damacio Page: $9,000

Raphael Assuncao: $26,000 ($13,000 win bonus)
def. L.C. Davis: $11,000

Anthony Njokuani: $14,000 ($7,000 win bonus)
def. Edward Faaloloto: $3,500

Dustin Poirier: $6,000 ($3,000 win bonus)
def. Zack Micklewright: $3,000

Michael McDonald: $6,000 ($3,000 win bonus)
def. Clint Godfrey: $3,000

Cub Swanson: $22,000 ($11,000 win bonus)
def. Mackens Semerzier: $4,000

Yves Jabouin: $5,000 ($2,000 win bonus)
def. Brandon Visher: $4,000

.....

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

Decent haul for Faber, at least by WEC standards.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: WEC 52

I think you guys think that a "submission attempt" has to be a full blow slapped on triangle. The fact is, even though I despise rubber guard play, and dont' like Vasquez, I can see that Mendes was frozen because, had he moved, he would have been in a triangle/omoplata. His arms are pinned to Vasquez's hips, trying to hold him in place... He was controlling him. I don't see how that is any different than pinning a guy.

I don't understand how you can look at round 1 of that fight and think Vasquez was not in charge of what was happening.

As for who agrees with who, I said it is a flaw in the scoring. Given the scoring we have, Mendes won. But there are plenty of people who think Vasquez won at least a round. All 4 of your expert writers on SD gave rd 1 to Javier. There were several threads on SD saying Vasquez won at least round 1.

I never said Vasquez won the fight. I said he won rd 1 clearly to me, and could have been given rd 2. I think 29-28 Mendes is right... but 29-28 Vasquez would not have been wrong IMO.

[SPX]

Re: WEC 52

I think you guys think that a "submission attempt" has to be a full blow slapped on triangle. The fact is, even though I despise rubber guard play, and dont' like Vasquez, I can see that Mendes was frozen because, had he moved, he would have been in a triangle/omoplata. His arms are pinned to Vasquez's hips, trying to hold him in place... He was controlling him. I don't see how that is any different than pinning a guy.

Let me ask you this: Should a punch that doesn't land be granted any points? I guess you could say it constitutes "aggression" but beyond that, obviously not. That's how I feel about submission attempts that don't do any sort of actual damage, like cutting off someone's air, hurting a joint, etc.