Official IWS Traditional Martial Arts Thread

[SPX]

I've taken a few classes in a variety of things. Nothing serious, mind you. I'm mostly a student of biomechanics and physiology. I like studying how the body moves, how force is generated and from where in various maneuvers, etc etc etc.

Yes, well you see, this is exactly why I thought you'd like the video I posted.

You have to admit, it was at least surprising to see a TKD kicker produce more force than an MT kicker. I know I was. I've always held to the adage that "TKD kicks are faster . . . MT kicks are harder."

Of course, who knows, that could've been a high-level TKD guy and middling MTer. Or maybe the MT guy just didn't produce the best kick on that occasion while the TKD guy was really on point. But nevertheless, I thought it was unexpected and impressive.

[Ludo]

Yes, well you see, this is exactly why I thought you'd like the video I posted.

You have to admit, it was at least surprising to see a TKD kicker produce more force than an MT kicker. I know I was. I've always held to the adage that "TKD kicks are faster . . . MT kicks are harder."

Of course, who knows, that could've been a high-level TKD guy and middling MTer. Or maybe the MT guy just didn't produce the best kick on that occasion while the TKD guy was really on point. But nevertheless, I thought it was unexpected and impressive.

I personally think the video was somewhat intentionally skewed to be honest. I mean, that one guy went for a fucking front kick while the rest of them were doing roundhouses. I still believe that traditional asian arts will produce a faster kick because it has no windup and no change of stance as well as landing with the instep, and muay thai kicks will be more telegraphed and more powerful due to hip rotation and the shin being the focal point. Harder contact surface(shin) + added distance before contact(hip rotation) SHOULD produce a harder kick overall. Of course anomalies occur but on the whole I don't think the video changed anything other than apparently telling us that "Capwera" is extremely lethal when you've been doing it for 25 years was it?

I did appreciate the breakdown for where force was generated in the different stances. I just didn't like the obvious point they were trying to make from the get go. It just didn't "play out" naturally in My opinion of that makes sense.

[SPX]

If anything seemed suspicious, it was the Capoeira kick. I expected it to be quite weak just due to the awkward way in which it was delivered. Despite their explanation, it just seemed to me that a roundhouse delivered from a good, stable stance would always be a lot more powerful than one delivered in the way the Cap dude did it.

And yeah, I was wondering about the front kick. It seemed to me that they were trying to compare a variety of different kicks delivered in different ways. Three of them happened to be variations of the roundhouse, though.

[Ludo]

Yeah I didn't buy the Capoeira kick at all. I'm sure it does hurt to take one of those and all, but I highly doubt that you can generate as much force as they were saying from a point of balance like one arm posted on the ground with the rest of the body moving all over creation. It also looks incredibly awkward supposing distance becomes a variable rather than a constant.

[SPX]

Did you ever see the movie Only the Strong with Mark Dacascos? That was where I first heard about Capoeira. Of course at the time I thought it was cool as shit, but these days I think I'll pass.

[SPX]

Here's an interesting article on the debate over whether grappling was part of karate in the early days:

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exist

[Ludo]

"Bananawayyyyyyy" Yeah I saw it back in the day. Shit was a good movie but I really don't see it as a truly effective style so much as a great way to stay in shape.

[SPX]

Ludo, read that article I just posted and tell me what you think. I know you're all about SD and it talks a lot about how early karate was SD oriented.

[MMA_scientist]

You have to admit, it was at least surprising to see a TKD kicker produce more force than an MT kicker. I know I was. I've always held to the adage that "TKD kicks are faster . . . .

F=MA

So if tkd kicks are faster, and they move the same amount of mass, they would create more force. The tkd guy did a front kick, push kick, whatever... his whole body was following his foot. I think that probably accounts for the diff. Like a slam produces a ton of force, but doesnt hurt as bad as a kick because it is dispersed ovet more area.

[SPX]

No, that was the karate guy. . .

And the mechanics are different on a TKD roundhouse and an MT roundhouse. The TKD version is snappier; the MT version has more of a whipping motion where the kicker puts his whole body into it.

It's the same kick . . . but different.

[Ludo]

Ludo, read that article I just posted and tell me what you think. I know you're all about SD and it talks a lot about how early karate was SD oriented.

Pretty interesting stuff. I'm not totally convinced that the writings are geared specifically for taking one a single untrained opponent, though. Obviously a martial art will have a much greater effect on a totally untrained opponent compared to a trained one. Even someone trained in another martial art entirely will probably have a better chance than the average guy who's never thrown a punch in his life.

Presenting something people haven't seen before is always going to give you the upper hand in these situations. Just look at Royce Gracie. Royce wasn't even the best Gracie, let alone best jiu jitsu practitioner, and he won three out of four one night tournaments against guys much larger than him because they hadn't ever seen such a purely submission oriented grappling art before.

[SPX]

Let me ask you this. . .

How much grappling do you think is necessary for self-defense purposes? I've given this a lot of thought. For instance, I'm interest in TMAs like karate and TKD. And I'm quite possibly about to start a Shotokan class. But as we know, striking arts are only a fraction of the whole.

So for purely self-defense purposes--that is, to know enough to gain the upper hand in most street situations--how much grappling do you really need?

In my view, I would think that a white belt's knowledge of any of the major grappling arts should be enough, whether it's judo, BJJ, CSW, catch wrestling (not sure if they have belts but you know what I mean), etc.

I would think you'd want a small handful of throws and takedowns, a basic knowledge of reversals, turn overs and sweeps, a few pins, and a few chokes and joint locks. And then drill, drill, drill until performing those techniques are second nature if a fight enters the clinch range.

Scientist, I know YOU have an opinion on this. . .

[MMA_scientist]

Let me ask you this. . .

How much grappling do you think is necessary for self-defense purposes? I've given this a lot of thought. For instance, I'm interest in TMAs like karate and TKD. And I'm quite possibly about to start a Shotokan class. But as we know, striking arts are only a fraction of the whole.

So for purely self-defense purposes--that is, to know enough to gain the upper hand in most street situations--how much grappling do you really need?

In my view, I would think that a white belt's knowledge of any of the major grappling arts should be enough, whether it's judo, BJJ, CSW, catch wrestling (not sure if they have belts but you know what I mean), etc.

I would think you'd want a small handful of throws and takedowns, a basic knowledge of reversals, turn overs and sweeps, a few pins, and a few chokes and joint locks. And then drill, drill, drill until performing those techniques are second nature if a fight enters the clinch range.

Scientist, I know YOU have an opinion on this. . .

I do have an opinion, I always have an opinion, even on things I really have no knowledge about. In this case, i would say thatto comfortably be able to grapple for self defense, you need about 1.5 years of training, so a white to low blue belt level in bjj. You only need one takedown and one reversal... even in bjj, you really don't need that many techniques, you just have to practice the shit out of them. Drilling and also sparring. I think 1.5 year wrestler, bjj, judo... that is enough to handle fights you could win without being an awesome fighter. That is, you are not going to be able to beat up wiseman with 1.5 years of bjj because of the size difference. If you want to be a guy that can kick virtually anyone's ass (and by "virtually anyone", I mean most people most of the time, regardless of size), you need years of training on the ground IMO (in addition to your striking training), like you need to be at least a good purple belt in bjj, black belt in judo, very good wrestler.

For example, I would not want to fight wiseman or Zak, even though I am over 200 pounds and have both a wrestling and jj base. They are fuckin huge and they could probably throw me around for at least a couple minutes. If I survived for long enough, I think I would choke a big man out... but it takes a few minutes for them to slow down. Even when a big guy comes into the gym, it sometimes takes a minute for me to get out of their squeeze... if they were hitting me, I would probably be pretty fucked up by the time I escaped.

So, to answer your question... it depends on what you mean by self defense. If you want to be able to have an edge against guys in the ballpark of your size, not much, maybe a year or so. If you want a certain edge against almost everyone (untrained, that is), it is a long process.

[SPX]

Indeed. I'd probably agree with that. Considering the fact that I'm barely 5'6" and 160 lbs (and would probably be more like 145 if I were in good shape) I would not rely on any hand-to-hand skills to defeat someone like Wisemann or Zak. That is straight up shoot-a-motherfucker territory right there.

As for someone relatively comparable to your size (give or take 25 or 30 lbs, I'd say) then I don't even think you'd need a year. Six months should do it against an untrained person. But I think you need a system of knowledge that allows you to handle a variety of situations.

For instance, if someone just rushes you and clinches up then you need to have specific techniques or strategies for either disengaging and escaping or throwing them to the ground. But I think you need a few different takedowns to correspond with the type of grip they have and the position of their body.

On the ground you need to know what to do if you're on top, if you're on bottom, if they wind up behind you and getting your back, etc.

As for chokes, I think you'd need a choke in case they rush you wrestler style (like a guillotine) as well as a choke for if you have their back (RNC).

[Mr. IWS]

I would not rely on any hand-to-hand skills to defeat someone like Wisemann or Zak. That is straight up shoot-a-motherfucker territory right there.

Literally bol'd