2011 Off topic thread(basketball,movies,etc whatever)

[MMA_scientist]

I have to tell you something svino: Math is a lie.

I was having a discussion with my brother the other day, and I actually wanted to ask you some stuff about light and rods and cones and what not. The jist of the convo was that there is no reality. There is only perception. I was using color as an example-- basically that there is no blue. The sky is not blue. There is only the way our eyes interpret the light waves or whatever. To a dog, the sky is gray. So is the sky gray or blue... or is there really only perception?

Then to further that thought, we can only see things to a certain size, whatever the smallest known particle is these days, quarks or whatever you nerds call the sub-quark. But then again, it is only perception. There are alot of things we cannot see. What does the world actually look like, in a non-subjective way...

So it is not really that important to the point of the conversation, but is that right about color and light?

[SPX]

How would we know that he's Jesus, the son of God? Even if he demonstrated obvious magical powers, he could just be some psychic-dude trying to trick us into worshipping him. Or maybe it could be. . .

Like Scientist said, it would be obvious.

And if none of the obvious signs would be enough to convince you, then God--being all powerful--would simply put the suggestion into your mind that he's God and you would believe it.

[MMA_scientist]

The fact that I am even laughing about this hypo probably means that it is really more like a 9 or 9.5 on the surprise scale. What day is the world supposed to end next year? Is it May 2012?

I will set the line at +1gaggle versus "not end of world in 2012" -infinity

[SPX]

December 21, 2012. But that's the Mayan calendar, not the Bible.

[MMA_scientist]

Yeah I know. It just popped in my head since we were talking rapture.

[Svino]

I have to tell you something svino: Math is a lie.

I was having a discussion with my brother the other day, and I actually wanted to ask you some stuff about light and rods and cones and what not. The jist of the convo was that there is no reality. There is only perception. I was using color as an example-- basically that there is no blue. The sky is not blue. There is only the way our eyes interpret the light waves or whatever. To a dog, the sky is gray. So is the sky gray or blue... or is there really only perception?

Then to further that thought, we can only see things to a certain size, whatever the smallest known particle is these days, quarks or whatever you nerds call the sub-quark. But then again, it is only perception. There are alot of things we cannot see. What does the world actually look like, in a non-subjective way...

So it is not really that important to the point of the conversation, but is that right about color and light?

First of all I would say I believe there is indeed a "real" reality. (i.e. I agree with philosophical realism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism). I would also acknowledge that there may be no technical way to rule out solipsism, but I tend to discount it anyway.

Animal vision is a clumsy evolved probe of that reality. In addition to being coarse in its own right, it will invariably differ somewhat from being to being.

The "reality" of light is represented by the electric and magnetic fields. "Color" is kind of a shorthand that our eyes / brain have for estimating the spectrum of visible light that we see. A more full description of the spectrum would give a value for the optical power at every possible frequency. Instead we have three different types of cones in our eyes that have different but overlapping sensitivity ranges (with peaks in the red, blue, and green parts of the spectrum). Dogs only have two different types. (Some women have four.) This gives us some information about the spectrum, but it has weaknesses, for example we cannot tell the difference between pure yellow light, and a mix of red & green light. Of course, 3-color monitors exploit this.

[SPX]

Okay, well here's a question. We know that, as humans, there are things that we cannot normally detect.

For instance, we can't see infrared light. And we can't hear sound that is at certain frequencies. Etc. . .

What do you think of the idea that beings that we deem supernatural--angels, for instance, or ghosts--are in fact creatures of the natural world that simply exist of a substance or material vibration that we can't normally detect and that only, occasionally, somehow break through to our awareness?

[MMA_scientist]

But is the color itself real? Is there a real red or is it only red because our instrument interprets it that way? If there a better more evolved eye out there, would it still be red? I know that you say you think there is a real reality (I agree, but I do not think we can really even be close to knowing that reality), but when it comes to color only, is there a real reality? I don't what you are saying about optical power at every frequency, you are going to have to dumb it down...

[zY|]

I guess I would be considered an agnostic atheist(even though I don't care for these labels). I can't rule out the idea of some supreme being, and like SPX said, it's probably unknowable anyway. One thing I know is that it sure as fuck ain't Jebus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu or any of the other ridiculous man-made religions.

[SPX]

I guess I would be considered an agnostic atheist(even though I don't care for these labels). I can't rule out the idea of some supreme being, and like SPX said, it's probably unknowable anyway. One thing I know is that it sure as fuck ain't Jebus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu or any of the other ridiculous man-made religions.

I'll mark you down for a 10.

[MMA_scientist]

Okay, well here's a question. We know that, as humans, there are things that we cannot normally detect.

For instance, we can't see infrared light. And we can't hear sound that is at certain frequencies. Etc. . .

What do you think of the idea that beings that we deem supernatural--angels, for instance, or ghosts--are in fact creatures of the natural world that simply exist of a substance or material vibration that we can't normally detect and that only, occasionally, somehow break through to our awareness?

I am starting to open to the idea that there are many things in the world and others that we just do not percieve or comprehend, things that just have not entered our consciousness. We observe everything from a box. We talk about time and distance in such a limited way... we can verbalize things, but I really don't think we can grasp some things such as infinity and forever. It starts out when we are 5 and we aks how far does space go and then when we are 12 we ask what was there before the big bang... the answer is always, forever or there was nothing. I just don't think can grasp it and it starts early... 30 years later and I still can't grasp it.

[poopoo333]

I guess I would be considered an agnostic atheist(even though I don't care for these labels). I can't rule out the idea of some supreme being, and like SPX said, it's probably unknowable anyway. One thing I know is that it sure as fuck ain't Jebus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu or any of the other ridiculous man-made religions.

\

This is basically the same for me...agnostic I guess would be the term. It's one of those "I'll never know anyways" types of deals where I won't rule anything out

[Svino]

Okay, well here's a question. We know that, as humans, there are things that we cannot normally detect.

For instance, we can't see infrared light. And we can't hear sound that is at certain frequencies. Etc. . .

What do you think of the idea that beings that we deem supernatural--angels, for instance, or ghosts--are in fact creatures of the natural world that simply exist of a substance or material vibration that we can't normally detect and that only, occasionally, somehow break through to our awareness?

Well, I'll give it credit for at least being a coherent idea. In contrast, I'm not sure I truly understand what the word "supernatural" means other than something that basically doesn't exist by definition.

If this were true, it would have to involve completely unknown physics. And if you think "ghosts" exist where people have reported them to exist (pretty much all over the place, all the time), I would find it impossible to imagine we wouldn't have a decent handle on it by now. For example, detecting in the IR and picking up ultrasonics are both completely routine. I do the former all the time.

[Ludo]

BTW, just out of curiosity, back on the religion topic:

On a scale of 1 to 10, if Jesus returned tomorrow as is prophesied in the Bible, and Christianity was proven to be true, how shocked would everyone be?

I'd probably be a 7, so definitely pretty fucking surprised, but I guess it's still drilled into my head enough to where I wouldn't be completely flabbergasted.

We'd all read about it in National Inquirer while waiting to buy groceries and be out of our minds surprised.

[zY|]

Yeah I've read about it several times in the Weekly World News.