UFC 117

[edman5555]

Re: UFC 117

Also Sonnens submission defense seems to be improving a lot. He used to be a submission magnet but since getting submited by Jeremy horn he's had 12 fights and only been submitted twice. Both times by top notch guys in maia and filho. He didn't get submitted by dan miller, yushin okami or nate mardquardt. Mardquardt did almost submit him though with that Guillotine. Chael was saying in an interview that he was almost out..Nate almost KO'd him too.

I would say Anderson is much ahead of nate in striking- that brings the near KO of chael from nate into perspective.

Submissions: I think Nate might have an edge over Silva but I don't know. I know he competed in ADCC before but Silva does have a wicked triangle and Chael only has one way to win which kind of puts him in triangle territory.


I'm going to say 80% Silva, 20% Chael.

[Svino]

Re: UFC 117

The idea that "greco-roman wrestling transitions better to MMA than freestyle does" is one of those things that people have been repeating for years, but I've yet to be convinced.

[zY|]

Re: UFC 117

The idea that "greco-roman wrestling transitions better to MMA than freestyle does" is one of those things that people have been repeating for years, but I've yet to be convinced.

How dare you question Joe Rogan?

[edman5555]

Re: UFC 117

The idea that "greco-roman wrestling transitions better to MMA than freestyle does" is one of those things that people have been repeating for years, but I've yet to be convinced.

Yeah I'm with you on that.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 117

Hendo's takedowns traditionally are upper body clinch trips/throws since his base is Greco. The problem there is he has to get inside Anderson's reach to get there which was the problem in round two. Sonnen (R-Or) (R-Or) has excellent shooting takedowns which means he doesn't have to get his face pounded on in order to close the distance and snag a takedown. Unless Anderson stays far far away from Sonnen (R-Or) (R-Or) at all times I don't see him stuffing every takedown.

This. I beleive Chael is what you would call a freestyle wrestler? Correct? That style seems to be so much better for mma. Not that greco doesn't work well, but they always seem to have to lumber in or use freestyle(grabbing the legs) takedowns.

A good example of this is the Ben Askren vs Hornbuckle fight. Compare that to the Pitbull freire-Joe warren fight. Joe couldn't take pitbull down at all with the clinch takedowns but eventually he started shooting on him and getting him down. Obviously any greco roman wrestler is probably going to have a much better shot than your average fighter but I don't think they compare to a freestyle guy.

I may not be using the correct terms here, maybe someone can help. I know greco roman is where you use trips/throws to take people down, but freestyle and folk style i think I understand but may not..

Folkstyle is what Americans do in High school and college (although the collegiate rules are slightly different). There is very little folkstyle wrestling outside the U.S. and very little internationally. During high school and college you can do freestyle and greco in the off season, but freestyle is probably 20x more popular and common. It is actually sort of hard to find a local greco tourneys.

Freestyle is a lot more versatile. Just about everything is legal in freestyle. It differs from folkstyle in that there is no mat wrestling. You never start in the "par terre" position. Also, you cannot expose your back to the mat at all. So if you shoot a double, and get crotch lifted, you will get 1 point for the takedow, but the guy that got taken down will get 2 points for the crotch lift (exposure points).

Greco is actually pretty weak. Usually the Greco wrestlers are not as good as the freestyle wrestlers in college. The guys you know about Gable, Sanderson, John Smith... they are all gold medalists in freestyle. IMO, they are the 3 greatest American wrestlers. Greco rules are very limited. Even more limited that judo. You cannot trip. You are not allowed to touch the legs at all, even with your own legs. It is 100% clinch based, no shots, no trips. It is about lifts and throws. The famous Karelin lift is used because you are not allowed to touch the legs.

In my opinion, freestyle is a better style for MMA. There have been some successful greco guys, but all the things that are legal in Greco are also used in freestyle, but not vice versa.

But really, folkstyle is the best. I think that is why you see so much more sucess from the American wrestlers. There is no mat wrestling in freestyle and greco. You have about 10 seconds to work for a turn and then they stand you up. No one ever tried to escape or reverse. So a wrestler that was 100% trained in the international styles would be at a huge disadvantage on the mat.

After college most guys with international aspirations focus on 1 style. The better wrestlers usually go into freestyle, IMO.

Sonnen was a d1 AA... he focused on greco after college, but he never made the team. Hendo is the same, but he actually made the olympic team and placed 10th.

Warren's shots on Pitbull would be illegal in Greco. The clinching up against the cage Couture style is why people say it is better.

[edman5555]

Re: UFC 117

Yeah I wrestled for one year in high school. Spending time on the mat is great for mma. Especially trying to put guys on their back. That is the basis for ground and pound and control. It's hard to get up from that position. If you remember that fight, Warren shot on Pitbull after he tried to get clinch throws repeatidly and failed. Pitbull is obviously a muay thai fighter and much stronger so that technique isnt going to work so hot on him. I think eventually Warren realized this and decided to start shooting on him and of course since he is an olympic wrestler and pitbull is no kind of wrestler at all the skill gap was still considerably huge even though Warren isn't really a folk/freestyle wrestler. Warren must have wrestled Collegiate though now that I think about it. He's american. That must be where he learned that. Whoops, correction.

[poopoo333]

Re: UFC 117

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 117

damn. I was hoping to get Silva... but not over -250

[sbjj]

Re: UFC 117

Gotta bet Tim there. Thiago likes to stand and bang, and Boetsh can hit hard and has a decent chin.

[Luke]

Re: UFC 117

damn. I was hoping to get Silva... but not over -250

I was hoping for -200 or less .

Opening at -400? geezz

[Luke]

Re: UFC 117

[SPX]

Re: UFC 117

Saunders is probably definitely worth a bet there. The only question is can Hallman do to Saunders what Fitch did?

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 117

I think that is a competitive fight. Hallman should have an advantage on the ground and in the takedowns. Hallman's striking is not that bad, he was actually on his way to winning a decision over John Howard using basically his striking, until Howard landed a miracle KO punch with about 5 seconds left. But Hallman could very well find himself in that thai clinch too...

[Luke]

Re: UFC 117

Saunders is probably definitely worth a bet there. The only question is can Hallman do to Saunders what Fitch did?

Worth a bet at the -170 it opened at or the -280 its at now?


lol at Saunders being -280 and Thiago at -420 right now


We need to start posting the opening line along with the bestfightodds thing because it moves

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 117

Favorites have been getting wrecked lately. I have had to change my betting strategy. I don't think MMA is changing, I think the public is betting more favorites. Anymore, even close fights are -200. I have been betting WAY more dogs.