UFC on Versus 2 odds

[SPX]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

Unless you mean best use of wrestling in MMA, then that is subjective and I am not going to argue it (I still disagree, but at least it could be argued).

This is all that counts. . .

[edman5555]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

I am on Munoz already from a while ago.

I am now considering:Stann and Steinbess.

Stann for what was pointed out earler, Massenzio hasnt fought in 1 year and almost 8 months. He's also been knocked out twice, Stann has 6 kos out of 11 fights. I'm a little concerned though bc Massenzio is a high school national champ that went on to become a jun. college champ.

Steinbess has losses to Bill Mahood, Carmelo Marrero, and ryan Jensen.

Bill Mahood: that was his second fight, went three rounds to dec.
At this point Bill mahood had already fought Jason MacD twice, Patrick Cote twice, and Forest Griffin. He also had 23 fights at this point. Granted he lost to all of them but JAson MAcdonald who he beat once. But this guy was pretty damn good for your second fight.

Carmelo Marrero got the dec according to sherdog play by play but took the fight on 5 days notice. He also was much much more experienced.

Ryan Jenson. Shit stoppage because Steinbess was not out or tapping..pretty obvious if you watch the fight. However Steinbess was getting schooled on the ground. Stein did rock Jenson on the feet though.

Steinb is a formal kickboxer with 7 or so fights. Trains at Arizona Combat Sports.


Kimmons has a lot more fights but if you go through his record he doesn't seem that impressive. He got tooled on for three rounds by Jorge Rivera before he got KO'd in the third round.

He was submitted by Dan miller 1:27 sec into the first round. Ryan Jensen also submitted him in the first round.

Steinbess and stann are both underdogs by the way.

Any thoughts from everyone?

[sbjj]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

But useing that logic, then GSP is not a top ten wrestler in the welterweight division. You can only go by what you see in MMA, because everything before their MMA career was before they started fighting. I just can not believe that you actually think Munoz would outwrestle Sonnen(I assume you mean in the cage). Because that is what we are debating here. There is NOTHING that supports Munoz having better wrestling in terms of application to MMA.

Also, by wayof your thinking, Henderson should have outwrestled Jake in their match. Prefight credentials are a good base, but often times do not translate to MMA.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

Unless you mean best use of wrestling in MMA, then that is subjective and I am not going to argue it (I still disagree, but at least it could be argued).

This is all that counts. . .

It is, but we can argue all day about who uses wrestling more effectively. You could say that Chuck Liddell is the all time best wrestler @ LHW. He did use his wrestling effectively. Its just too subjective for me to argue (right now anyway).

[sbjj]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

LOL @ thinking Okami will have problems with any decent wrestler because Sonnen (R-Or) (R-Or) beat him. Using that logic anyone who loses to GSP will have trouble with any wrestlers from that time on.

I never said that. I said Okami has never defeated ANYONE that was a superior wrestler or ANYONE that even wrestled collegiately. He has faced 3 good wrestlers in his entire career. He has 0 wins and 3 losses. If someone lost to GSP, Hendricks, Koscheck and Hughes, and had no wins over AA level wrestlers, then yes, I would draw the same conclusion.

Also Sonnen (R-Or) is not the best MW wrestler, he probably isn't even top 5. Munoz would be favored over Sonnen (R-Or) in a wrestling match. He never won NCAA, he never made a world team, he never made the olympics. Unless you mean best use of wrestling in MMA, then that is subjective and I am not going to argue it (I still disagree, but at least it could be argued).

Sorry I was not clear, when I speak of wrestling, I mean as it pertains to MMA. If I was to read something in here about GSP being a better wrestler than Kos, hughes, or whoever, I would just assume it was in terms of MMA. Even though GSP most likely mops the floor with them in a straight wrestling match also.

[sbjj]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

[quote=MMA_scientist]

Unless you mean best use of wrestling in MMA, then that is subjective and I am not going to argue it (I still disagree, but at least it could be argued).

This is all that counts. . .

It is, but we can argue all day about who uses wrestling more effectively. You could say that Chuck Liddell is the all time best wrestler @ LHW. He did use his wrestling effectively. Its just too subjective for me to argue (right now anyway).[/quote:2ntsm1t1]


And that would be a factual statement. You could bring up a guys high school and college creds to almost every fight, and it might hurt you more than help you. Many times the guy with the better pedigree will lose. Most people believe Hendricks lost to Grant, yet his pedigree made him a huge favorite. the only thing that saved those that bet on his pedigree was bad judging.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

I am on Munoz already from a while ago.

I am now considering:Stann and Steinbess.

Stann for what was pointed out earler, Massenzio hasnt fought in 1 year and almost 8 months. He's also been knocked out twice, Stann has 6 kos out of 11 fights. I'm a little concerned though bc Massenzio is a high school national champ that went on to become a jun. college champ.

Steinbess has losses to Bill Mahood, Carmelo Marrero, and ryan Jensen.

Bill Mahood: that was his second fight, went three rounds to dec.
At this point Bill mahood had already fought Jason MacD twice, Patrick Cote twice, and Forest Griffin. He also had 23 fights at this point. Granted he lost to all of them but JAson MAcdonald who he beat once. But this guy was pretty damn good for your second fight.

Carmelo Marrero got the dec according to sherdog play by play but took the fight on 5 days notice. He also was much much more experienced.

Ryan Jenson. Shit stoppage because Steinbess was not out or tapping..pretty obvious if you watch the fight. However Steinbess was getting schooled on the ground. Stein did rock Jenson on the feet though.

Steinb is a formal kickboxer with 7 or so fights. Trains at Arizona Combat Sports.


Kimmons has a lot more fights but if you go through his record he doesn't seem that impressive. He got tooled on for three rounds by Jorge Rivera before he got KO'd in the third round.

He was submitted by Dan miller 1:27 sec into the first round. Ryan Jensen also submitted him in the first round.

Steinbess and stann are both underdogs by the way.

Any thoughts from everyone?

I have not had a chance to look at Steinbess. I have seen Kimmons fight a lot though. Most likely, he will want to stand and bang with Steinbess until he gets hurt. I have never been impressed too much with Kimmons either.

I think Stann is a good dog. Stann is a pretty smart guy from all appearances. The UFC is giving him a steady diet of wrestlers to see if he can fix the glaring hole in his game. This will be his third striaght wrestler. His defense on his back and takedown defense have improved dramatically since his WEC days. It is going to be impossible to stop Phil Davis' shot, so there is no shame there. He did stuff Wallaces shots and was moving around pretty well. Massenzio is in between those two in terms of wrestling skill. I think at MW he is going to be alot better at stuffing shots and he has been working with Jones and Rashad. Throw in the lay off for Massenzio, and I think Stann gets it done. I am actually considering this one now too.

[sbjj]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

I am on Stann also. I agree with all that has been said. I think his footwork has improved dramatically. And i thought he actually did not look that bad in his loss to Phil. Mike is pretty damn good everywhere, but I see it as a toss up when you factor in the layoff and injury.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

And that would be a factual statement. You could bring up a guys high school and college creds to almost every fight, and it might hurt you more than help you. Many times the guy with the better pedigree will lose. Most people believe Hendricks lost to Grant, yet his pedigree made him a huge favorite. the only thing that saved those that bet on his pedigree was bad judging.

Rashad has used his wrestling better imo (off the top of my head). He has managed to string together 15 wins to only 1 loss. Chuck never had a 15-1 streak. But, its totally subjective. We can argue all day whether the quality of opposition was equal, who was past thier primes, etc.

Grant put up a good fight, and really only lost because he kept kicking Johny in the balls and they took a point. But it was not close because of Grant's wrestling or even his MMA wrestling. He got taken down like 10 times in that fight, including getting slammed several times. He never took Johny down, and only stuffed like 1 shot. I didn't say great wrestling makes great fighters, because I actually don't think wrestling makes great fighters most of the time. For the number of great wrestlers that have tried MMA, only a few of them are any good.

[poopoo333]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

Even with the point deduction, Hendricks still would have won. The judges scored it 29-27

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

Even with the point deduction, Hendricks still would have won. The judges scored it 29-27

Yeah, but a lot of people thought that was wrong. Most of teh play by plays gave Grant rounds 1 and 2. Hendricks won round 3, 10-8. It should have been a draw. Personally, I feel Hendricks won round 2, but it could have gone either way.

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

1u on Stann @ +137


I am done. I have

1u on Stann @ +137
1u on Munoz @ +175
3u on Ellenberger @ -170

[SPX]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

Anyone know where to find the Stann/Wallace fight?

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

^^ couldn't find it. Wallace took Stann down more than I recalled. Maybe I should have stayed off of the one. Massenzio also has some submission skill... kind of regretting it, oh well.

pbp: http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/tem ... 2&zoneid=2

[SPX]

Re: UFC on Versus 2 odds

^^ couldn't find it. Wallace took Stann down more than I recalled. Maybe I should have stayed off of the one. Massenzio also has some submission skill... kind of regretting it, oh well.

pbp: http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/tem ... 2&zoneid=2

Thanks for this.

Yeah, I'm just not sure. Massenzio looked pretty good against CB in the first, oh I don't know, minute or two, but he let CB get on top and take control of the fight. He probably doesn't have to worry about that happening with Stann, and I'm not sure if Stann can defend the shot. This one could really go either way, I think. Hard to call.