UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

[sbjj]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

Yes, Cain did have a hard time holding Kongo and Ben down and controlling them. Just like Brock had a hard time holding down and controlling Heath and randy. i think it is pretty hard for one heavy to hold another down unless the wrestling gap is huge...Which in this instance(Brock-Cain) it is not IMO.

I thought Cains striking looked fine against Ben while he used it. But obviously the plan was to only use it to get the takedown. to play devils advocate to the devils advocate, I believe the only time Cains striking has looked bad was against Kongo where he was rocked early in the exchanges. he also seems to be improving his boxing continually. Something that brock seems unable to do.

I think most people believe this fight comes down to Can Brock take Cain down and control him. Some think he can, while others think he can not. I do not believe most people think Brock will outstrike Cain, and most do not believe Cain will outwrestle Brock...even though I think there is a strong chance Brock ends up on his back later in this fight either from punches are from a late takedown.

[zY|]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I think most people believe this fight comes down to Can Brock take Cain down and control him.

Yeah that's pretty much it.

[Luke]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

1) Yes, Brock's standup looked like absolute crap against Carwin, but might some of that be due to his hesitation and fear? Everyone including Brock knows that Carwin hits like a truck, but I don't see him displaying the same striking tentativeness against Cain. At the very least, we know Brock has reach and power.

2) For his part, Cain's striking might be getting overrated. He looked awful in the standup against Kongo, and not even that good against Rothwell. The only thing he did *really* well in those fights was get takedowns. He didn't even do a particularly good job of holding Rothwell down, or doing damage in GnP to those guys (I thought the Rothwell stoppage was a little early). The only time Cain looked good in the standup was against Nog, and I'm sad to say I don't count that for much anymore.

3) Lets say there are several takedowns, and each guy spends a little time on top. I have a lot more confidence in Brock's ability to do damage in that interval than I do in Cain's.

4) Even though I think Cain will have better cardio, we don't really have proof of that.

^^ I agree with everything above .In fact I mentioned some of the same things in page 4 or 5 of this thread but it turned into an arguement so i just stopped giving reasons for backing Brock

Let me add

I think Brocks striking is underrated and Cains is overrated at the moment.
I also think people are giving Cain too much credit on Cardio .Sure he might have slightly better cardio(which still isnt a fact) but Brock should be able to neutralize that with his 30 pound and strength adv.

Brock has 5 rounds to catch Cain and put him away or GnP him out . I dont have any fear at all if Lesnar ends up on his back,I dont feel Cain has much of any chance of stopping Brock

I still wish Carwin hadnt of gassed and we'd know way more about Lesnar right now


Again please dont let this start a arguement

[Luke]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

Some good points, Svino. One thing though. While the Rothwell stoppage might have been early or at the wrong time, to say Cain's GnP was not damaging is absurd. The first round was arguably the most lopsided round of a fight I have EVER seen. Countless huge power shots landed directly on his chin with his head snapping back and into the floor over and over. It was really a testament to Rothwell's chin and toughness that he never went out. One Sherdog judge and Junkie even scored the round 10-7 and it's hard to argue against. It was an absolute terrorizing. When Ben stood up at the end he looked like he had been run over by a bus.

I dont think that fight was stopped early . It was going to happen either way eventually

[sbjj]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

From what I have seen from both men, i think Cain stopping Brock is more likely. Cain has never been stopped, and showed some decent heart in taking the shots he did in the Kongo. In Brock we have seen a fighter who tapped quickly because of the pain and a guy who literally ran away when being hit. he did show smarts and grit in finishing the first round with carwin.

i have little doubt that if this fight remains standing that brock could be stopped. He does not have the head movement to get away from the shots that will be coming at him, and cain has some pretty nasty leg kicks and kness also. If this becomes a fight where Brock can not take cain down, and Cain is able to make it a pure kickboxing match, i think the chances of a stoppage for Cain are high.

[Svino]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

While the Rothwell stoppage might have been early or at the wrong time, to say Cain's GnP was not damaging is absurd. The first round was arguably the most lopsided round of a fight I have EVER seen.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'll concede: he did beat Rothwell up really good that round. I think the stoppage was more a case of the ref deciding that Rothwell was not going to be able to do anything but get beat up, than him being in immediate danger. No doubt though that the fight was only going one way.

I would be very surprised if Brock were able to consistently control Cain physically. He had difficulty with Randy and no success at all with Carwin (when he had energy). I'm pretty sure Cain is a tougher wrestler than either of those guys now, despite Carwin's size and strength advantage.

Also, I think if Cain does want to win with a cardio strategy, he'll have to make the early rounds very physical - maybe with a lot of clinching against the fence. I'd be surprised if Brock really gassed in 5 rounds of kickboxing.

[poopoo333]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I think Cain's cardio is being overhyped along with his newfound technical striking.

[sbjj]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

While the Rothwell stoppage might have been early or at the wrong time, to say Cain's GnP was not damaging is absurd. The first round was arguably the most lopsided round of a fight I have EVER seen.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'll concede: he did beat Rothwell up really good that round. I think the stoppage was more a case of the ref deciding that Rothwell was not going to be able to do anything but get beat up, than him being in immediate danger. No doubt though that the fight was only going one way.

I would be very surprised if Brock were able to consistently control Cain physically. He had difficulty with Randy and no success at all with Carwin (when he had energy). I'm pretty sure Cain is a tougher wrestler than either of those guys now, despite Carwin's size and strength advantage.

Also, I think if Cain does want to win with a cardio strategy, he'll have to make the early rounds very physical - maybe with a lot of clinching against the fence. I'd be surprised if Brock really gassed in 5 rounds of kickboxing.[/quote]

Cain will not need him to be gassed if it is a kickboxing match.

[sbjj]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I think Cain's cardio is being overhyped along with his newfound technical striking.

Many were talking about his striking before the Kongo fight. remember how he was gonna have to take Stojnic down because he was at a disadvantage striking. Could it be a case of Cains striking being underrated after the Kongo fight? i mean, most people thought Nog was going to outbox him.

And lets assume that Cains striking is overrated while Brocks is a bit underrated. do you honestly believe these two fighters are on the same level when it comes to striking?

[Mr. IWS]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

If this becomes a fight where Brock can not take cain down, and Cain is able to make it a pure kickboxing match, i think the chances of a stoppage for Cain are high.

This is pretty much the main reason that I wont be betting Brock.

[Ludo]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I'm personally of the mind that the Rothwell stoppage was both a bit early, but might as well have happened when it did because nothing was going to change going forward in that fight.

As far as a breakdown for Lesnar/Velasquez I see it fairly even in alot of categories.

Striking: Obviously Cain is being given more attention for his performance against Minotauro and I think we can almost universally agree that Lesnars striking isn't what one might call "technically sound", but I think too much credit is being given to Cains abilities here. Lesnar has a monster reach and obvious power, then again so does Cain on the power side of things. Cain has a more broad array of weapons if this fight is kept standing in kicks and whatnot that Lesnar just has not shown. Overall I give the striking to Cain due mostly to the fact that he has more weapons at his disposal.

Wrestling: Very close here. Both guys have shown incredible skill here but thats hardly any surprise. We have seen Lesnar take smaller wrestlers down(though not do a whole lot with it), what we haven't seen is Velasquez taking down a guy of similar wrestling pedigree to his own yet. Also I think Brock is going to be difficult to take down anyway due largely to his build and the fact that he's so broad, he has almost an automatic sprawl look about him because of the chest being so big. I give the advantage wrestling to Lesnar.

Submissions: This could very well become a factor in this fight just like the last one. We have seen Lesnar diagnose, work towards, transition for, and ultimately succeed in getting a Submission. From what I have seen of Cain he seems like he either isn't far enough along to see submission opportunities when they're there, or he just would rather pound away at someone. I have seen no indication that Velasquez has done much in the way of submission training at all. I have to give the edge here to Lesnar, but it isn't by much.

Cardio: Both have shown no problems going three rounds. I am having a hard time seeing too many ways that these guys don't end up grappling a good deal of the time. The size difference may not necessarily put Cain at a disadvantage so much with strength, I'm seeing a problem in his ability to stay fresh when he's constantly having to either carry or battle a much larger man. Lesnar is a big guy and he knows very well how to lean on people and use his size to his advantage. If this fight makes it into the later rounds, which I think it will, I don't know how well Cain dumps lactic acid. Never the less given all the unknowns here since we haven't seen either guy get tired, or how fresh they stay after grueling grappling battles and whatnot in MMA I'm giving the edge to neither guy in Cardio.

Overall the biggest reason I took Lesnar was strength of schedule compared to Cains. Pummeling Mir twice(the ref more or less allowing Mir to get the first win), beating the crap out of Herring for fifteen minutes(a lesser man would have tapped), and enduring the beating that Carwin put on him in the first round are fairly good wins. Cain was more or less hand picked a couple opponents in Kongo and Rothwell (a striker and a jack of all trades but master of none type fighter).

[MMA_scientist]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I think Brock is clearly a better "grappler" and a slightly better wrestler. I just think the wrestling is close enough that this basically will become a clinchfest and/or kickboxing match. Brock won't get the chance to work his superior jiu jitsu game because Cain is not going to play guard with him, he is going to give his back and get the hell out of dodge (like all HW's except Werdum should).

[edman5555]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I am pretty sure Cain won the Purple belt BJJ world Championships. He trains BJJ.

[Ludo]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

I am pretty sure Cain won the Purple belt BJJ world Championships. He trains BJJ.

He trains Guerilla Jiu Jitsu. I'm not sure about the world championships thing either, I couldn't find any info on that.

[SPX]

Re: UFC 121 Lesnar vs Velasquez

He trains Guerilla Jiu Jitsu.

Isn't GJJ just BJJ with some extra shit added in.